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Ed Dueling protests spark state of emergency in Virginia.

sir drinks-a-lot said:
Why do I think the crackpot left, antifa, communists, etc. are more dangerous than the crackpot right, white supremacist, nationalists, etc? There are a couple of reasons. The first is that in recent history in the US, the former have resorted to violence much more often and have acted out against free speech with all of the university stuff, the stuff at trump rallies, and even some previous white supremacist/nationalist rallies that would likely have been peaceful had they not arrived.
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xjx388 said:
That. But more fundamentally, antifa et. al. are more dangerous because, as this thread demonstrates, they are perceived as the "good guys" by too many people on the left just because they share certain political views. We dasn't call out the bad actors on the left because that means we support Nazis! It would be laughable if it wasn't so scary.
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Have either of you come up with that data yet that establishes your claims that left wing extremism is more dangerous than right wing extremism?
 
ponderingturtle said:
Also lots of semi auto assault rifles.
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This - Antifa brought pepper spray and sticks. The Nazis brought organized militia armed with rifles.

One side was ready for a riot, to cause some pain and leave a few bruises. The other was ready to start a civil war and kill a whole lot of people.

You don't need to be a fan of Antifa (I'm not) to see that one side was much, much worse than the other, and you don't have to be a genius to see that not all of the counter-protesters belonged to the Antifa groups (although both sides are already trying to redefine the term).

And, as regards Charlottesville, that protest was organized from day one as a white supremacist event. Regardless of how one feels about the issue of removing confederate statues - this particular march was a white supremacist event. The group that applied for the permit in the first place is white supremacist. The organizers who arranged logistics are all white supremacist. All of them. There was no "mainstream" conservative input into this event.

All the press coverage preceding the event made this clear, although some of the press coverage after seeks to obfuscate that.

There is absolutely no reason for anybody who did not consider themselves a white supremacist to be there. None at all.
 
The Great Zaganza said:
Hogwash.
The rally was called "Unite the Right"- nothing ambiguous about that.
It was explicitly about bringing different streams of the far-right together as a block US politics should reckon with.
No one uninvited Neo-Nazis or the KKK.
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They were very unambiguous in their advertising of the rally:

picture.php


You don't show up for that rally unless you're a white nationalist.
 
ponderingturtle said:
Also lots of semi auto assault rifles.
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To be fair, most of those carry rifles came from one of two groups, one, the Three Percenters, who are a Libertarian Militia group who was acting a security for the Alt-Right, and one for the AntiFas, the Redneck Revolters. When the fighting started, the Three Percenters helped the Alt-Right leaders get to safety and then stood down and left (something reported by a number of journalists and the group themselves) and have since denounced the Racist and Violent actions of the Alt-Right, while the Redneck Revolters set up in one of the nearby parks and protected those in that park having to form up several times when the Alt-Right groups appeared and looked like they were about to attack the people there.

There have been no reports of those with the guns actually being involved in the fighting itself.
 
Checkmite said:
It's going to be difficult. There is no "antifa" group named as such; it's a blanket term the alt-right uses to describe all counter-protesters at their rallies.
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I've met, interacted with, and observed many such groups so you can take your biased "our side does no wrong narrative" and sell it to someone else.

Sent from my SM-J327P using Tapatalk
 
The Big Dog said:
If one is for Antifa and their violent tactics, one is against free speech and the freedom of expression.
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This message brought to you by the political party that encourages violence against members of the media, and thinks Nazis are "very fine people".
 
fagin said:
I get the white nationalists on the right of the pic, but the green frogs on the left?
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Pepe the Frog

Beginning in 2015, the character's image has been appropriated as a symbol of the controversial alt-right movement. The Anti-Defamation League added Pepe the Frog to their database of hate symbols in 2016, adding that not all Pepe memes are racist. Since then, Pepe's creator has publicly expressed his dismay at Pepe being used as a hate symbol.
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PhantomWolf said:
You do realise that there is no such things as a right to free speech beyond freedom from prosecution by the Government, right? And even that is limited pretty much everywhere, more so outside the US. You have no right to free speech that prevents non-government citizens from shouting you down, drowning you out, or preventing you from speaking using legal non-violent methods, no such right exists.
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You do realize that freedom of speech and expression is a fundamental human right, are you not?

Article 19.


Everyone has the right to freedom of opinion and expression; this right includes freedom to hold opinions without interference and to seek, receive and impart information and ideas through any media and regardless of frontiers.

Article 20.


(1) Everyone has the right to freedom of peaceful assembly and association.
(2) No one may be compelled to belong to an association.
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Universal Declaration of Human Rights

Furthermore. Antifa does not use legal or non-violent methods.

On the right, the police's "wait-and-see" approach was perceived as a conspiracy: Cops allowed violence to break out so they would have an excuse to shut down the rally. That claim was bolstered by Virginia's ACLU chapter, which tweeted that the police stood "passively by, seemingly waiting for violence to take place, so that they'd have grounds to declare 'unlawful assembly.'"
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It's alright. The Big Dog ACLU was simply making his its allegiances clear.
 
The Big Dog said:
You do realize that freedom of speech and expression is a fundamental human right, are you not?
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And Freedom of Speech and Expression allows me to stand beside you with a bullhorn and drown you out.

Universal Declaration of Human Rights
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Yeah come back and talk to me about this document after you accept Universal Healthcare as a right.

Furthermore. Antifa does not use legal or non-violent methods.
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It uses both. Standing across steps with arms linked to prevent marchers getting through is both non-violent and legal. Defending one self, or others against people attacking you is legal, but not non-violent.

No one is condoning any use of illegal violence.

It's alright. The Big Dog ACLU was simply making his its allegiances clear.
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The ALCU is investigating possible abuse of rights but Government entities, not Private ones.
 
PhantomWolf said:
And Freedom of Speech and Expression allows me to stand beside you with a bullhorn and drown you out.



Yeah come back and talk to me about this document after you accept Universal Healthcare as a right.



It uses both. Standing across steps with arms linked to prevent marchers getting through is both non-violent and legal. Defending one self, or others against people attacking you is legal, but not non-violent.

No one is condoning any use of illegal violence.



The ALCU is investigating possible abuse of rights but Government entities, not Private ones.
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1. That is inconsistent with the Charter, and I cannot see what benefit a race for a bigger bullhorn has

2. Nice tu quoque, and I'm not the one against the freedom of expression.

3. Physically blocking people from exercising their rights completely inappropriate https://www.aclu.org/sites/default/files/field_pdf_file/kyr_protests.pdf

4. anyone who supports Antifa is condoning violence.

5. the aclu is investigating why the police let the counterdemonstrators block access to the park and allowed the counterdemonstrators to interfere with free expression.
 
The Big Dog said:
1. That is inconsistent with the Charter, and I cannot see what benefit a race for a bigger bullhorn has

2. Nice tu quoque, and I'm not the one against the freedom of expression.

3. Physically blocking people from exercising their rights completely inappropriate https://www.aclu.org/sites/default/files/field_pdf_file/kyr_protests.pdf

4. anyone who supports Antifa is condoning violence.

5. the aclu is investigating why the police let the counterdemonstrators block access to the park and allowed the counterdemonstrators to interfere with free expression.
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why do you oppose the 'antifa' their freedom of speech? You must hate free speech! Or are only cars used by the right considered free speech?
 
On the right, the police's "wait-and-see" approach was perceived as a conspiracy: Cops allowed violence to break out so they would have an excuse to shut down the rally. That claim was bolstered by Virginia's ACLU chapter, which tweeted that the police stood "passively by, seemingly waiting for violence to take place, so that they'd have grounds to declare 'unlawful assembly.'"
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I should certainly hope that police are taking no action if there is no violence taking place.
 
Skeptic Tank said:
The Unite the Right side had many people who are by no means Nazis.
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They united with Nazis. That makes them bad people. There are no good people marching with Nazis.

Skeptic Tank said:
First off, being pro-white does not automatically make you a Nazi.
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It makes you anti-everybody else in a society that is already dominated white and discriminates against all other ethnicities. It makes them racists. They are bad people. There are no good racists marching with Nazis.

Skeptic Tank said:
Secondly, there were totally basic B MAGA types there too.
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Yes, those who understand that the Racist-in-Chief is sympathetic to their own racism. Trump makes it clear time and again that his idea of America is the white, male, rich America. Racist scum. There are no good people in the MAGA crowd marching with Nazis.

Skeptic Tank said:
At the torchlight march, for instance, there was a black Trump supporter guy with the Unite the Right group.
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And? Can a black person not be racist Nazi scum? Two years ago, Richard gage of A&E for 9/11 Truth pulled out of the hat a black NYC fire fighter named Rudy Dent - the first and only FDNY person in 15 years to support the 9/11 Truth madness. Turns out that black guy Rudy Dent did not let a day pass without praising racism and naziism. He one day posted an image glorifying, I am not making that up, *********** Adolf Hitler!
This only proves that being scum and being racist and being a really bad person has nothing to do with race.
So there was a black person marching with Nazis? That black person was a bad person. There are no good people marching with Nazis.

Skeptic Tank said:
The whole premise of Unite the Right was for the alt-right and the alt-lite (which consists of tons of non-racists, in fact it's exclusively non-racists and it's larger than the alt-right by far) to come together. A lot of alt-lite people bailed on it, but not all. Plenty were there.
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I hilighted the bit I had to laugh at bitterly.
"Non-racist" alt-right desiring to unite and march with Nazis are closet racists in the process of outing themselves. There is not a single good person among them.

Why are there no good people marching with Nazis? Because marching with Nazis is a personal choice that grows out of utter evil.
 
The Big Dog said:
1. That is inconsistent with the Charter, and I cannot see what benefit a race for a bigger bullhorn has

2. Nice tu quoque, and I'm not the one against the freedom of expression.

3. Physically blocking people from exercising their rights completely inappropriate https://www.aclu.org/sites/default/files/field_pdf_file/kyr_protests.pdf

4. anyone who supports Antifa is condoning violence.

5. the aclu is investigating why the police let the counterdemonstrators block access to the park and allowed the counterdemonstrators to interfere with free expression.
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It doesn't matter if they blocked the path. You said they did not use legal or non violent methods. A single application of a legal non violent tactic is a refutation of your statement.
 
Checkmite said:
I should certainly hope that police are taking no action if there is no violence taking place.
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Do counter-demonstrators have free speech rights?
Yes. Although counter-demons
trators should not be allowed to physically disrupt
the event they are protesting, they do
have the right to be present and to voice
their displeasure. Police are permitted
to keep two antagonistic groups separated
but should allow them to be within
the general vicinity of one another.
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From the earlier ACLU pamphlet.

Thank goodness the ACLU got all those donations earlier this year, they are going to need them to preserve ALt Right's free speech rights!
 
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