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Ed Dueling protests spark state of emergency in Virginia.

xjx388 said:
How is that if you blame both sides in a violent clash of opposing viewpoints, you are somehow implicitly supporting one side?

The simple truth is the tired, old-but-apt cliche: It takes two to tango. Why is that wrong to say and how does it support the Nazis?
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Because the "neutral" position in certain cases grants far more positive or negative weighting to one side of the equation than the other.

For instance, if I were to say that cancer and a broken finger are both bad, that statement alone implies an equivalence. But in order to achieve that equivalence, I must either be implying that cancer isn't as bad (positive) as we all know it to be, or that a broken finger is far worse (negative) than we all know it to be.

The events of this past weekend is one of those cases.

It really is as simple as ( -1 + x = -2 + y ).
 
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The Big Dog said:
did you look for it? because reports saY it all started when the antifa/black bloc scum blocked the entrance to the park.

http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-charlottesville-witnesses-20170815-story.html

VIOLENCE ON BOTH SIDES
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Yes, violence on both sides.

One side Nazi scum, among them a terrorist killer.
The other side fighting scum with the wrong means.

There are no good people among Nazis.
There are plenty of good people on the "other side" of Nazi scum, which is Main Street America. And there are some bad people. I have voiced my opposition to militant antifa several times in this thread.

Trump still wrong in very important ways.
 
Being against fascists is fine, and there may be no such thing as "alt-left", but there is a group that self-labels as Antifa (short for Antifaschistische Aktion) and they are not good people. Most of the posters in this thread have a historical understanding of the definition of fascism. The problem is, once sufficiently enabled, the self-labeled group known as Antifa will find fascism where ever it wants to. There are plenty of people in this thread on the anti-fascist side that could be labeled fascist by Antifa for having the wrong opinion about some social issue or another. Antifa also seems aligned with the political ideology responsible for political purges that resulted in millions of deaths, namely communism. National socialists and communists are equally bad.

[For the record, I am a 'person of color' in the SJW parlance. Some of my grandparents were born south of the American border but later became naturalized citizens of the USA- none of them spoke English as a first language or were educated beyond elementary school. I speak and present myself in much the same way as I express myself in this post and my complexion is as white as the driven snow. I mark hispanic on all demographic questions and leave it blank if hispanic is not an option because I do not consider myself white.]
 
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Oystein said:
Yes, violence on both sides.

One side Nazi scum, among them a terrorist killer.
The other side fighting scum with the wrong means.

There are no good people among Nazis.
There are plenty of good people on the "other side" of Nazi scum, which is Main Street America. And there are some bad people. I have voiced my opposition to militant antifa several times in this thread.

Trump still wrong in very important ways.
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We don't know if he is a terrorist.
 
Oystein said:
Yes, violence on both sides.

One side Nazi scum, among them a terrorist killer.
The other side fighting scum with the wrong means.

There are no good people among Nazis.There are plenty of good people on the "other side" of Nazi scum, which is Main Street America. And there are some bad people. I have voiced my opposition to militant antifa several times in this thread.

Trump still wrong in very important ways.
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The Unite the Right side had many people who are by no means Nazis.

First off, being pro-white does not automatically make you a Nazi.

Secondly, there were totally basic B MAGA types there too. At the torchlight march, for instance, there was a black Trump supporter guy with the Unite the Right group.

The whole premise of Unite the Right was for the alt-right and the alt-lite (which consists of tons of non-racists, in fact it's exclusively non-racists and it's larger than the alt-right by far) to come together. A lot of alt-lite people bailed on it, but not all. Plenty were there.
 
Emily's Cat said:
Are you sure of that? You're certain that this is what they believe and consider themselves to be? Or you DEFINING them as such after the fact based on nothing other than that they opposed the removal of a piece of history?
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Reasons matter. Their expressed reasoning for opposing the removal of the statue was that it was an attack on/attempt to "erase" white culture. So yes, I am sure of that. "X is attacking white culture and we have to stick up for white culture" is a white nationalist talking point.
 
Emily's Cat said:
Let's see how this logic works: If you disagree with the removal of a piece of history related to the civil war... then you're either a neo-naxi or a white supremacist. Nothing is quite as uplifting to the righteous soul as shaming people into thought conformity by condemning them as sinners, I guess.
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Nonsense. It's not the "removal of a piece of history related to the civil war"; it's the removal of a statue honoring a general specifically for his contribution to the effort to maintain a population's enslavement. Take the statue and put it into the anti-elitist wing of the nearest creationist museum, if you like. That way, it'll always be available for history buffs.
 
Skeptic Tank said:
The Unite the Right side had many people who are by no means Nazis.
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As I've already said, this is prevarication. Whether any given person there was in and of themselves an actual Nazi, or was merely a willing Nazi sympathizer and ally, is a distinction without a difference to the point.
 
Scopedog said:
Antifa also seems aligned with the political ideology responsible for political purges that resulted in millions of deaths, namely communism. National socialists and communists are equally bad.
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Tell ya what. Let's exchange lists... yours of heroic self identifying Nazis and mine of heroic self identifying Communists. Should be an interesting comparison.
 
trustbutverify said:
Neo-Nazis don't "distrust or dislike" you and I. They hate us with a blistering, all encompassing passion and pray everyday for our extermination. Other subhumans can be useful for labor and such, but Jewishness is the root of all evil, and must be sterilized. They worship some of the very worst examples humanity has ever produced, and find the torture of innocents exhilarating.
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I think that's simplistic and hyperbolic. I can't really pretend to get into the mind of a Nazi or a Klansman, since I've never met one in real life (although my friend and I did call up the Nazi Party in Chicago during the Skokie march kerfuffle when I was 14 and had a reasonably civil conversation with the Nazi who answered the phone), but I have met several pretty darn antisemitic people who held similar views to the Nazis about Jews in general. Every single one of them was quite civil to me if and when they found out I was Jewish - and usually apologetic. Their antisemitism was abstract, not personal, and it sprang from ignorance rather than a deep-seated hatred.

On the other hand, I grew up around card carrying Communists... and they were some of the most humane, wonderful people I've ever met.
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Well, that has been my experience too. Almost everybody on my mother's side of the family was a Communist (the generation born before 1940) when they were young. Almost all were kind people. I'm sure Adolf Eichmann's family thought he was kind too. He was certainly banal, as Hannah Arendt put it. But ideology, combined with ignorance and stupidity, can prompt banal people to do bad things. And that doesn't just include Nazi ideology, or Communist ideology, but also anti-Nazi ideology and anti-Communist ideology. Problems particularly set in when people find moral justification to respond to non-violence with violence.

Like I said before, the reason Antifa scares me more than the Nazis do is that Nazis don't seem intent on physically harming Jews qua Jews. Antifa is intent on physically harming Nazis qua Nazis. The problem is that I don't trust Antifa to distinguish me from a Nazi.
 
pgwenthold said:
How can "teach both sides" be considered pro-creationist, right?
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Sure, the Brown shirts were wrong to kick the **** out of defenseless people, but the elitist Jews were also wrong for provoking them and smelling bad.
Plenty of blame to go around.
 
Checkmite said:
As I've already said, this is prevarication. Whether any given person there was in and of themselves an actual Nazi, or was merely a willing Nazi sympathizer and ally, is a distinction without a difference to the point.
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Of course! And there is no difference between a willing Nazi sympathizer and a willing Nazi sympathizer sympathizer. And so on. The only people with clean hands are those who have no sympathy for anybody.
 
Emily's Cat said:
Are you sure of that? You're certain that this is what they believe and consider themselves to be? Or you DEFINING them as such after the fact based on nothing other than that they opposed the removal of a piece of history?

Let's see how this logic works: If you disagree with the removal of a piece of history related to the civil war... then you're either a neo-naxi or a white supremacist. Nothing is quite as uplifting to the righteous soul as shaming people into thought conformity by condemning them as sinners, I guess.
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Checkmite didn't say that opposition to removing a Confederate statue makes one a "naxi" or supremacist. He said that everyone a t the protest of removing this statue was a Nazi or supremacist. Given the tenor of the debate, I think this claim is fairly plausible. If I were a decent guy protesting the removal of the statue, I would hightail it when I saw the way the protesters behaved.
 
trustbutverify said:
Tell ya what. Let's exchange lists... yours of heroic self identifying Nazis and mine of heroic self identifying Communists. Should be an interesting comparison.
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There are no heroic national socialists. Would you expect to be spared during a communist purge? Antifa thinks that they would be spared but they are useful idiots.
 
phiwum said:
Checkmite didn't say that opposition to removing a Confederate statue makes one a "naxi" or supremacist. He said that everyone a t the protest of removing this statue was a Nazi or supremacist. Given the tenor of the debate, I think this claim is fairly plausible. If I were a decent guy protesting the removal of the statue, I would hightail it when I saw the way the protesters behaved.
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I agree the claim is plausible. I actually spent about 10 minutes with Google to find evidence of a Nazi flag at the rally (and I did find one - carried by a skinny guy in a light green shirt). There clearly were many extreme people in the crowd, and I think almost all moderate people would have high-tailed it out of there fast.

That being said, Antifa and its ilk have been physically attacking people at pro-Trump rallies for going on 18 months now, and I think that's what Trump had in mind. This was probably the worst example for him to use to go on about the repugnant behavior of the "alt-left," but it's understandable given that he was criticized so vehemently for not exclusively condemning the people who actually had a legal permit for a rally.
 
phiwum said:
Checkmite didn't say that opposition to removing a Confederate statue makes one a "naxi" or supremacist. He said that everyone a t the protest of removing this statue was a Nazi or supremacist. Given the tenor of the debate, I think this claim is fairly plausible. If I were a decent guy protesting the removal of the statue, I would hightail it when I saw the way the protesters behaved.
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I think it is more than plausible. There have been marches in favor of keeping Confederate statues by relatively mainstream conservative groups. This was not one of them.

Earlier in this (now very long thread) evidence was provided showing that the organizers of the march, those who applied for the permit, where openly white nationalist. This was an openly overtly stated white supremacist march from the beginning.
 
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