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Ed Dueling protests spark state of emergency in Virginia.

dudalb said:
The fact is Utopians in power are bad,bad, news. They tend to get frustrated when their schemes for a perfect world don't work, and decide the problem is imperfect people,and seek to eliminate the imperfect people to bring about the perfect world.
And,in the end,that Communism has a utopian goal makes it no less of a murderous philoposhy in practice.
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I agree with all that. Which is why I am not a communist. However at least the theoretical goal of a workers paradise is more positive than a fascist hell. If I didn't know the lessons of history, then I could see communism being attractive, whilst I can't see fascism being attractive at any level.

It's a bit like the Churchill quote about Democracy being the worst form of government except for all the others that have been tried.



Does that make sense?
 
xjx388 said:
....
So, in that sense, I think Trump is correct: Two groups of bad people clashed. ...
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That is absolutely NOT what Trump said, and it is also absolutely NOT what really happened.

Trump said: There are good people on both sides
You say: Both sides are bad people.

The truth is:

ALL on the nazi side were bad people - Trump is most egregiously WRONG to say there were very fine people on that side!
MOST on the anti-nazi side were good people, a few (militant antifa) were bad (although not as bad as nazis)
 
Giordano said:
You really believe that?!! Of course no thug would ever think of doing anything illegal!

And then again they might not beat you up physically- they might just try to destroy your business, your private life, and your reputation instead:
http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-neonazi-website-lawsuit-20170418-story.html
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That's the best example you can come up with? A financial dispute between a Neo-Nazi's mother and her Jewish realtor which escalated into an internet (and now court) battle?

How much does it actually hurt your reputation to be attacked online by Neo-Nazis anyway? I would pay for that kind of publicity.
 
Shalamar said:
And they are even far worse shots than Stormtroopers on the Death Star.
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I can see why that analogy appealed to you, and I agree; as Tommy Jeppesen said, it would need a different kind of human. Especially in positions of power.

The only "plausible" societies where something like communism or anacho-communism works are ones with a cornucopia, (yes I am thinking of Ken Macleod and Ian M Banks).
 
Oystein said:
That is absolutely NOT what Trump said, and it is also absolutely NOT what really happened.

Trump said: There are good people on both sides
You say: Both sides are bad people.

The truth is:

ALL on the nazi side were bad people - Trump is most egregiously WRONG to say there were very fine people on that side! MOST on the anti-nazi side were good people, a few (militant antifa) were bad (although not as bad as nazis)
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This is it - you don't march with spittle-flecked loons waving torches and flying swastikas if you are a good person.
 
sunmaster14 said:
I don't get any grievance mongering credit for being Jewish? Or is my Ashkenazi heritage considered a privilege now among the social justice warriors on the left?
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Based on your posting history I thought it a safe assumption that you were in lock-step with today's Trump wing.

Apologies.
 
The Big Dog said:
Oh yeah, after that opening sentence let me get right on replying to you.

You see
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Attempt to avoid the question duly noted.

Also, reading comprehension is clearly relevant in that the article you cited never said what you claimed it said. I never accused you of having poor reading comprehension skills in general nor insulted your reading (or other) abilities as a person. I only noted that your interpretation of this particular article was unsupported by the actual text of the article, and that reading comprehension problems would appear to be the most obvious explanation. We all have these problems from time to time; I certainly do. What other interpretation is there? I guess your memory might have been faulty in this particular incidence (also true of me and virtually everyone). The only remaining choice I can imagine would be that your reading and memory were bang on, but that you deliberately lied. I categorically rejected this possibility and I honestly do not believe you would have done so.
 
sunmaster14 said:
That's the best example you can come up with? A financial dispute between a Neo-Nazi's mother and her Jewish realtor which escalated into an internet (and now court) battle?

How much does it actually hurt your reputation to be attacked online by Neo-Nazis anyway? I would pay for that kind of publicity.
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Come on- this wasn't a single angry letter to the editor that one can post on the wall and point to with pride. There is no way to trivialize what was done to this woman and no way you would want to be the subject of what happened to her.
 
jimbob said:
It's a bit like the Churchill quote about Democracy being the worst form of government except for all the others that have been tried.
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No wonder Churchill is such a hero to the "democrats" as they call themselves.
Churchill said:
I do not understand the squeamishness about the use of gas. I am strongly in favour of using poisonous gas against uncivilised tribes
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Churchill said:
I do not admit... that a great wrong has been done to the Red Indians of America, or the black people of Australia... by the fact that a stronger race, a higher grade race... has come in and taken its place.
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Churchill said:
I could not help being charmed, like so many other people have been, by Signor Mussolini's gentle and simple bearing and by his calm, detached poise in spite of so many burdens and dangers. Secondly, anyone could see that he thought of nothing but the lasting good, as he understood it, of the Italian people, and that no lesser interest was of the slightest consequence to him. If I had been an Italian I am sure that I should have been whole-heartedly with you from the start to finish in your triumphant struggle against the bestial appetites and passions of Leninism. I will, however, say a word on an international aspect of fascism. Externally, your movement has rendered service to the whole world. The great fear which has always beset every democratic leader or a working class leader has been that of being undermined by someone more extreme than he. Italy has shown that there is a way of fighting the subversive forces which can rally the masses of the people, properly led, to value and wish to defend the honour and stability of civilised society. She has provided the necessary antidote to the Russian poison. Hereafter no great nation will be unprovided with an ultimate means of protection against the cancerous growth of Bolshevism.
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He's got everything required of a hero of liberal democracy: utmost brutality in imposing capitalist imperialism on the rest of the world, and highly supportive of fascism for its anti-communist stance and methods.

ETA: He's probably not such a hero to communists though, given how he had also ordered the use of poison gas on communist fighters during the UK's invasion of revolutionary Russia in 1918.
 
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NoahFence said:
Based on your posting history I thought it a safe assumption that you were in lock-step with today's Trump wing.

Apologies.
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Oh good grief. What are you apologizing for? Please don't award me points for being Jewish. I don't want them. I hate identity politics. I abhor it. And, yes, I support Trump. Is he an idiot and an *******? Sure. But his actions are good, even if his words are embarrassing. Also, I've got that enemy of my enemy is my friend sort of thing going. And a weak schadenboner still.
 
sunmaster14 said:
This strikes me as rather simplistic. To the extent Communists preached world solidarity, it was a ruse to help spread revolution (usually by violent means). Hitler may or may not have wanted to take over the world, but world domination is not intrinsic to Fascism as it is to Communism.
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Communism is basicly rather like libertarianism. Sure the best real world examples of being like that are horrible disasters of abuse, but they also failed to live up to the exacting standards of the ideology.
 
Giordano said:
"There is no evidence that Antifa protesters initiated violence in Charlottesville this weekend."

Oh my- that would appear to seriously undermine the basis for most of your posts in this thread, wouldn't it? But of course the Economist is know for fake news and being a strong supporter of anarchist movements so you can't trust them, right?
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We are in a post evidence world though.
 
caveman1917 said:
No wonder Churchill is such a hero to the "democrats" as they call themselves.




He's got everything required of a hero of liberal democracy: utmost brutality in imposing capitalist imperialism on the rest of the world, and highly supportive of fascism for its anti-communist stance and methods.
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I agree that Churchill was literally an imperialist, and that he held some unpleasant views. However you seem to have a bit of a blindspot when it comes to brutality as you keep making excuses for Stalin, who *really* was brutal.

Any further discussion on this should be in the "Was Stalin really that bad" thread

Actually this is a good summary:

ponderingturtle said:
Communism is basicly rather like libertarianism. Sure the best real world examples of being like that are horrible disasters of abuse, but they also failed to live up to the exacting standards of the ideology.
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sunmaster14 said:
Oh good grief. What are you apologizing for? Please don't award me points for being Jewish. I don't want them. I hate identity politics. I abhor it. And, yes, I support Trump. Is he an idiot and an *******? Sure. But his actions are good, even if his words are embarrassing. Also, I've got that enemy of my enemy is my friend sort of thing going. And a weak schadenboner still.
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AND what actions are good? Specifically
 
jimbob said:
I agree that Churchill was literally an imperialist, and that he held some unpleasant views.
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Some "unpleasant views" which also happen to coincide with some of the "unpleasant views" of the people at that rally: "No white guilt! Native Americans and black people don't get to whine about having been replaced by a superior race!" or "Hate communism, love fascism!"

Actually this is a good summary:
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No it isn't.
 
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