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Ed Dueling protests spark state of emergency in Virginia.

portlandatheist said:
I can't wait to see how the next round of polling turns out. Everybody that defends them just digs their own grave. He stains everybody that touches him.
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At that point - when the polls are in for the period of Aug 16++, can we finally identify them as deplorables? Or will the enablers and apologists insist, like Donnie, that some of those demonstrators who were there, by invitations received from Nazis, Klavens and Whites R Us, weren't Nazis, KKK or White Supremacists.
 
Skeptic Tank said:
Don't have the time to catch up with this whole thread but I will just weigh in:

Having paid a lot of attention to the last several such conflicts between the alt-right and antifa types, and having paid close attention to this event in particular - I feel confident in saying that the violence is primarily the fault of antifa and police (deliberate) mismanagement of the situation.

I think it's clear that after their attempts to shut the rally down in other ways failed (because of the federal judge doing the right thing) and after being upset at the successful torchlight march on Friday, the local officials decided they simply would not permit the rally on Saturday to go as planned. I think they deliberately failed to keep antifa at bay and deliberately forced conditions under which antifa could and would attack the alt-right, the alt-right would defend itself (and yes I acknowledge some in the alt-right like a fight and go too far, beyond just self-defense though this is rare) so that this could then, in turn, be used as justification to shut the whole thing down and prevent the rally itself.

Because I am convinced this was a deliberate strategy to prevent the rally, I would say that Heather Hayer's blood is on the local government's hands.

It's also obviously on the hands of Fields himself, who I do not believe made a deliberate choice to try to mow down antifa, but rather panicked and probably didn't see the cars in front of him and thought he could escape by plowing through. To the extent he was even thinking at all, at that stage. I've heard he has mental problems and I suspect he isn't exactly the alt-right's finest specimen. I suspect between his issues and being only 20 and being keenly aware of things like the bike lock attack at Berkeley, and what antifa always does (some really heinous stuff, they bring feces and rocks and literally try to kill people and blind people, etc.) he was probably totally terrified of being surrounded by them and having his car hit (it's been proven this was taking place to some degree before he'd hit anyone.)

I understand why he wanted to get out of there. I suspect his car was receiving particular attention because they could see in the windshield and see he was a white male in a white polo shirt. They knew what he was and he knew they knew. I get why he would take drastic measures to try to escape that situation once they started focusing in on him and hitting his car with bats and such, which did happen.

However, his approach was awful and particularly so because of the other blocked cars in front of him. If he didn't see those, though, and I doubt he did... it makes it a bit more understandable. I think that's why he backed up, he thought he was going to go through and then he couldn't. I wish he'd just backed up to begin with and I'm sure he wishes that too.

Frankly I sort of wish he'd been pulled out of the car and beaten badly before he ever hit anyone. That would keep everyone pretty clear on who the violent ones were, though of course plenty of people would still be cheering on the video of a "racist nazi getting dragged out of a car and beaten! serves him right for going to that rally!" etc.

The cops crashing in the helicopter is tragic. The woman losing her life in the car situation is tragic.

People shouldn't block streets and they definitely shouldn't surround and attack cars. It can induce panic in the driver as we have seen MANY times.

If he weren't alt-right and if this didn't have such attention on it, and especially if Hayer had survived with injuries, I think there'd be a decent chance he'd get off or get off very lightly. As it stands, I suspect he's toast. Can't help but feel bad for the guy, to have his life ruined at such a young age because of a situation he was put in by irresponsible authorities with an axe to grind and no respect for the federal judge's order or the first amendment + violent antifa leftists surrounding him and beating his car with weapons (images show several points of damage on the car already before he accelerated and hit anyone.)

I think he reacted very stupidly by driving through them like that... but if he really didn't realize there were other cars blocked up ahead, and if he really was in a full panic... well, I can't necessarily say what I'd do under the same conditions. It would certainly be scary to think you were about to be dragged out of a car and possibly murdered (I do think there's a decent chance they'd have killed him. Certainly there's a very good chance of that after the initial impact before he backed up.)

Note how they are INSTANTLY smashing his back window and attacking the car from all sides when it halts movement. And I do mean INSTANTLY. Several people with weapons, with masks, bashing the car.

That's not just a reaction to him hurting people. The normal reaction to an unexpected horrific thing where several were just injured is:

1.) Stunned shock and anguish
2.) Helping the injured / checking on peoples' condition
3.) At most, seeking to disable the vehicle and grab hold of the driver to neutralize their ability to cause further harm.

To *instantly* be bashing the car the moment it stops moving (and actually before, come to think of it) with weaponry reveals the truth of the matter:

Though they were not the entire crowd, the crowd there contained numerous hardened, violent antifa thugs who were fully prepared to destroy his vehicle and viciously attack him even prior to him hitting anyone, on the basis of who he was and how he was dressed. They would've been smashing his windows in the same way if all he'd done was nudge his car forward 4 feet and lightly knock a few of them down. Of that, I'm certain. I'm also certain some degree of this same sort of attacking was taking place before he did anything with the car they could see as a threat, and we have video and photo evidence to that effect.

All in all, a real cluster. Lots of tragedy. All could have been avoided by the authorities and the counter-demonstrators simply being decent, law-abiding people. If the cops had done their job and kept the two groups separate. If they'd gone in with a mindset like Pikeville and others have had of "we may not like this rally, but it's their right to have it and our responsibility to make sure it takes place and takes place safely" and if the counter-demonstrators had had a mindset of "we hate these white nationalists and are going to loudly make our disapproval known" instead of "we are going to bring acid, bleach, concrete filled water bottles, bladed weapons, bike locks, rocks, bricks, knives, guns and socks full of batteries and we are going to commit attempted murder on any white nationalist we get access to while wearing masks to avoid accountability" ---- then this all could have been fine.
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This is an interesting comment.

When was his car surrounded and is there any evidence for that happening?
It appeared to me that he came from a place that was unpopulated with protesters and drove towards an area populated with protesters ( the nucleus of the group) and was already traveling at speed.

This suggests to me that there was at minimum some intent to disrupt the protest, if not to actually maim and kill as he eventually did. The latter being the most likely. (why not just reverse out of there? he later demonstrated that he was skilled at reversing)

I did see that guy hit his car as he approached the crowd, and i agree it did seem odd how some people reacted. But it appears from the footage that he was already travelling at a speed towards the crowd that was going to result in injuries.

I do agree that those bringing riot weapons to a demonstration is not something that peaceful people do. It something trouble makers do who want to commit violence.

Is it even legal to carry such weapons? In the uk i am fairly sure you would get locked up and arrested if you were seen to be carrying anything like those objects near a protest. Even if they did not get you at the event, they would find you afterwards and charge you with something.
 
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esspee said:
I do agree that those bringing riot weapons to a demonstration is something tht peaceful people do. it something trouble makers do. Is it legal to carry such weapons? In the uk i am fairly sure you would get locked up and arrested if you were seen to be carrying anything like those objects near a protest.
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In the some states in the US (dunno offhand if Virginia is one) you can walk around carrying freaking loaded assault weapons.
 
If a car hit a person of a crowd I was in, I'd probably bash. I don't see how that is evidence that the guy in the car ran people over in self defense.
I think that white supremacists probably have a different take on reality, that is why they are racist in the first place.

Trying to paint the Nazis as the victims here is deplorable.
 
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and all this because someone described women as a minority, which, whilst technically incorrect in most countries, is a common usage.
 
Tony Stark said:
In the some states in the US (dunno offhand if Virginia is one) you can walk around carrying freaking loaded assault weapons.
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Correction: A large majority are "open carry" states with respect to handguns, if you include the ones where a permit is required. Long guns are treated differently, but generally the rules are less strict than for handguns.
http://www.politifact.com/florida/s...are-45-states-allow-open-carry-handguns-form/
http://www.opencarry.org/maps/map-open-carry-of-a-properly-holstered-loaded-handgun/
 
Tony Stark said:
He could have prevented it by not being a nazi piece of trash.
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You use whatever words you want to for it, but you cannot actually expect whites to sit back and quietly take it as the culture and society not only slip away from them and from their control but more than that, actually turn increasingly anti-white.

It is not a stretch at all for a white person to look at the climate now and look at the demographic trends and worry about what sort of nation the United States (or most nations in Europe too for that matter) are going to be for them and their descendants in the decades to come.

Their history being demonized and erased, endless talk of how racist whites are and how guilty they are for a host of historical ills... endless talk about white privilege...

It is by no means crazy to worry, as a white person, that it is going to get very dangerous to be one of us if something is not done. I would say that something is partition.

esspee said:
When was his car surrounded and is there any evidence for that happening?
It appeared to me that he came from a place that was unpopulated with protesters and drove towards an area populated with protesters ( the nucleus of the group) and was already traveling at speed.
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I believe he ended up in a much more populated area than he started at up that hill. I agree with your characterization of where he drove to as a "nucleus" of counter-protesters.

He made a very bad choice in moving from the more lightly populated area to the more heavily populated area. However, I do believe there were assailants beating his car even up the hill in the more lightly populated area, and even prior to him doing anything they could reasonably see as an act of aggression. I believe they did it based on his attire which exposed him as a rally participant and a "white racist."

If it was a handful of people up there and his car had only received minor attacks at that point, it was incredibly stupid of him to drive down the hill into the higher concentration.

To be honest, as I think about this... I do agree that him moving in that direction may indicate that he decided to deliberately run over antifa / anti-white protesters as he would have seen it. That is not outside the realm of possibility.

But I still believe the far likelier scenario is bad choices made during panic in a desire to get out of there. That's certainly what I expect he'll claim in court.

If he did do it deliberately, it is worth pointing out that he may have been thinking of them as the people who had earlier been attacking he and his friends with deadly weapons, potentially partially blinding one person. I've heard about some absolutely outrageous head wounds inflicted by antifa that day, too. They were brutal as they always are. They were attempting murder, as they always do. They are vile communists and they really have very few limits on what they're prepared to do to "racists" and they routinely engage in behavior which equates to attempting murder and grievous bodily injury, and they do this even to alt-lite dudes who are basic Trump supporters and not even racists, like the bike lock guy.

So, to Fields' mind, this may have been a cluster of these awful people he was aiming at, if it was indeed deliberate (which I doubt) - but of course by that time, the vile antifa were mixed with other types of protesters who don't deserve to be targeted with a deliberate vehicle attack.

One thing I find really ridiculous is the narrative that this attack by Fields (if that's what it was) was some sort of thing characteristic of the alt-right. Or something the organizers of that rally would bear some responsibility for, or could reasonably be suspected of encouraging / desiring. Nothing could be further from the truth. The people who organized this rally wanted to peacefully give their speeches and get their message out. They expected there might be some light physical clashes with antifa, and came prepared for such. I guarantee you nobody in that rally came there that day with a pre-meditated plan to murder anyone. If Fields really did have such an intent before the rally even began, which I'd be shocked by, but if he did... then he's a total nut. I hear he's schizophrenic so perhaps it's possible.

The average person in that rally is a good person legitimately concerned about anti-white trends and simply wanting to stick up for their group's interests. I know many of them and they really are decent people who you may find misguided, but they are coming from a place of legitimate concern. Sprinkled in there are some loonier types and more violent types, unfortunately. Conversely, antifa is pretty much universally violent commies who are more than happy to go there and try to kill alt-right people or VERY seriously injure them at the least.
 
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alfaniner said:
Edited by Agatha: 
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Be careful about PWD :D ;)

I think the people are giving the ex-generals in the Trump administration too much credit. McMaster and Kelly are portrayed as honourable warriors fighting a rearguard action against the worst of The President's excesses.

As far as I can see, the only evidence for this is the fact that they are ex-generals and hence by definition "must" be honourable. This is due to the fact that for the past few decades, members of the armed forces in the United States are automatically assumed to have every virtue and no vices. Any attempt to point out that they are just ordinary men and women with the flaws that ordinary men and women have is met with accusations being against our troops and being less than patriotic. :mad:

I haven't seen anything from either Kelly or McMaster to suggest that they are anything less than enablers of The President's behaviour and IMO there is plenty to suggest that they are active participants.
 
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Skeptic Tank said:
You use whatever words you want to for it, but you cannot actually expect whites to sit back and quietly take it as the culture and society not only slip away from them and from their control but more than that, actually turn increasingly anti-white.

It is not a stretch at all for a white person to look at the climate now and look at the demographic trends and worry about what sort of nation the United States (or most nations in Europe too for that matter) are going to be for them and their descendants in the decades to come.

It is by no means crazy to worry, as a white person, that it is going to get very dangerous to be one of us if something is not done. I would say that something is partition.
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I expect white people to not be nazi filth. The ones that are can die for all I care.
 
Tony Stark said:
I expect white people to not be nazi filth. The ones that are can die for all I care.
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Yes, but you aren't a white supremacist. If you were, you'd be as worried as the tank is. Anti-white is any country where white people don't have all the power.
 
The Don said:
Be careful about PWD :D ;)

I think the people are giving the ex-generals in the Trump administration too much credit. McMaster and Kelly are portrayed as honourable warriors fighting a rearguard action against the worst of The President's excesses.

As far as I can see, the only evidence for this is the fact that they are ex-generals and hence by definition "must" be honourable. This is due to the fact that for the past few decades, members of the armed forces in the United States are automatically assumed to have every virtue and no vices. Any attempt to point out that they are just ordinary men and women with the flaws that ordinary men and women have is met with accusations being against our troops and being less than patriotic. :mad:

I haven't seen anything from either Kelly or McMaster to suggest that they are anything less than enablers of The President's behaviour and IMO there is plenty to suggest that they are active participants.
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Quite frankly, the only former general with any sense in Trump's cabinet is Mattis, and he's eighth in line to the Presidency (seven people would have to be taken out pretty much simultaneously, whether accidentally or otherwise (note: I am not and would NEVER condone such an action, but given the current climate in the country, it would be the height of stupidity not to acknowledge the possibility of such) for Mattis to ascend to the Presidency, in other words). McMaster and Kelly... not so much. They seem to have bought, at least partially, into Trump's party line from what I'm seeing. Mattis on the other hand, as far as I can tell, has at the very least the military's best interests in mind at all times, and likely has the best interests of the country from a defense perspective in mind at all times. Given that, he's the only person I give Trump a sliver of credit for picking in this administration; the rest are all woefully unqualified, for the most part, for the positions he picked them for.
 
Skeptic Tank said:
Don't have the time to catch up with this whole thread but I will just weigh in:
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Gee, I wonder what you're going to say.

Having paid a lot of attention to the last several such conflicts between the alt-right and antifa types, and having paid close attention to this event in particular - I feel confident in saying that the violence is primarily the fault of antifa and police (deliberate) mismanagement of the situation.
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Because of course you do.

I think it's clear that after their attempts to shut the rally down in other ways failed (because of the federal judge doing the right thing) and after being upset at the successful torchlight march on Friday, the local officials decided they simply would not permit the rally on Saturday to go as planned. I think they deliberately failed to keep antifa at bay and deliberately forced conditions under which antifa could and would attack the alt-right, the alt-right would defend itself (and yes I acknowledge some in the alt-right like a fight and go too far, beyond just self-defense though this is rare) so that this could then, in turn, be used as justification to shut the whole thing down and prevent the rally itself.

Because I am convinced this was a deliberate strategy to prevent the rally, I would say that Heather Hayer's blood is on the local government's hands.

It's also obviously on the hands of Fields himself, who I do not believe made a deliberate choice to try to mow down antifa, but rather panicked and probably didn't see the cars in front of him and thought he could escape by plowing through. To the extent he was even thinking at all, at that stage. I've heard he has mental problems and I suspect he isn't exactly the alt-right's finest specimen. I suspect between his issues and being only 20 and being keenly aware of things like the bike lock attack at Berkeley, and what antifa always does (some really heinous stuff, they bring feces and rocks and literally try to kill people and blind people, etc.) he was probably totally terrified of being surrounded by them and having his car hit (it's been proven this was taking place to some degree before he'd hit anyone.)

I understand why he wanted to get out of there. I suspect his car was receiving particular attention because they could see in the windshield and see he was a white male in a white polo shirt. They knew what he was and he knew they knew. I get why he would take drastic measures to try to escape that situation once they started focusing in on him and hitting his car with bats and such, which did happen.

However, his approach was awful and particularly so because of the other blocked cars in front of him. If he didn't see those, though, and I doubt he did... it makes it a bit more understandable. I think that's why he backed up, he thought he was going to go through and then he couldn't. I wish he'd just backed up to begin with and I'm sure he wishes that too.

Frankly I sort of wish he'd been pulled out of the car and beaten badly before he ever hit anyone. That would keep everyone pretty clear on who the violent ones were, though of course plenty of people would still be cheering on the video of a "racist nazi getting dragged out of a car and beaten! serves him right for going to that rally!" etc.

The cops crashing in the helicopter is tragic. The woman losing her life in the car situation is tragic.

People shouldn't block streets and they definitely shouldn't surround and attack cars. It can induce panic in the driver as we have seen MANY times.

If he weren't alt-right and if this didn't have such attention on it, and especially if Hayer had survived with injuries, I think there'd be a decent chance he'd get off or get off very lightly. As it stands, I suspect he's toast. Can't help but feel bad for the guy, to have his life ruined at such a young age because of a situation he was put in by irresponsible authorities with an axe to grind and no respect for the federal judge's order or the first amendment + violent antifa leftists surrounding him and beating his car with weapons (images show several points of damage on the car already before he accelerated and hit anyone.)

I think he reacted very stupidly by driving through them like that... but if he really didn't realize there were other cars blocked up ahead, and if he really was in a full panic... well, I can't necessarily say what I'd do under the same conditions. It would certainly be scary to think you were about to be dragged out of a car and possibly murdered (I do think there's a decent chance they'd have killed him. Certainly there's a very good chance of that after the initial impact before he backed up.)

Note how they are INSTANTLY smashing his back window and attacking the car from all sides when it halts movement. And I do mean INSTANTLY. Several people with weapons, with masks, bashing the car.

That's not just a reaction to him hurting people. The normal reaction to an unexpected horrific thing where several were just injured is:

1.) Stunned shock and anguish
2.) Helping the injured / checking on peoples' condition
3.) At most, seeking to disable the vehicle and grab hold of the driver to neutralize their ability to cause further harm.

To *instantly* be bashing the car the moment it stops moving (and actually before, come to think of it) with weaponry reveals the truth of the matter:

Though they were not the entire crowd, the crowd there contained numerous hardened, violent antifa thugs who were fully prepared to destroy his vehicle and viciously attack him even prior to him hitting anyone, on the basis of who he was and how he was dressed. They would've been smashing his windows in the same way if all he'd done was nudge his car forward 4 feet and lightly knock a few of them down. Of that, I'm certain. I'm also certain some degree of this same sort of attacking was taking place before he did anything with the car they could see as a threat, and we have video and photo evidence to that effect.

All in all, a real cluster. Lots of tragedy. All could have been avoided by the authorities and the counter-demonstrators simply being decent, law-abiding people. If the cops had done their job and kept the two groups separate. If they'd gone in with a mindset like Pikeville and others have had of "we may not like this rally, but it's their right to have it and our responsibility to make sure it takes place and takes place safely" and if the counter-demonstrators had had a mindset of "we hate these white nationalists and are going to loudly make our disapproval known" instead of "we are going to bring acid, bleach, concrete filled water bottles, bladed weapons, bike locks, rocks, bricks, knives, guns and socks full of batteries and we are going to commit attempted murder on any white nationalist we get access to while wearing masks to avoid accountability" ---- then this all could have been fine.
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How does any of that justify running over people with a car?
 
I'm having a fun time replacing the word "Nazis" with "ISIS" in the discussions about free speech. I'm fairly sure there would be different opinions if ISIS had done this.

Supporting Trump now is supporting Nazis. Good on you, Trumpers.
 
uke2se said:
I'm having a fun time replacing the word "Nazis" with "ISIS" in the discussions about free speech. I'm fairly sure there would be different opinions if ISIS had done this.

Supporting Trump now is supporting Nazis. Good on you, Trumpers.
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Well, the Third Reich had some amazing infrastructure projects - which is what Trump wanted to talk about, right?
 
C_Felix said:
I think of him as a general from another nation whom attacked the United States.

And no; we're not going to debate is the South was another nation. This thread is close to derailing as it is.
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There has been some talk in the past few years about Texas and California possibly declaring independence. Is that treason?
 
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