Transgender man gives birth

[Delphic Oracle]

Right. We could completely derail the thread discussing the problems those caused.

Let's just keep it simple: it turned out to be such a bad idea the practice was almost entirely eliminated in favor of private baths.

So another vague assertion that won't be up for discussion?

I'm thinking maybe the lack of running water for a thousand years or so probably might be why public baths went out of style.

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[DreamingNaiad]

Fair point.

But that is the case for both groups of people

Transitioning to a gender and being forced to use another genders facilities means outing yourself to the community and being at a very real risk of abuse or violence.

How is that not a rational fear?

Possibly being in the same room as genitals you feel icky about is not really a rational reason to cause the above. If there could be an actual argument put forward other than discomfort and vague unsupported rapist claims people would pay attention.

 

[DreamingNaiad]

I would say: "expresses discomfort" means something "causes discomfort"; and its equally true -or equally false- with regards to both groups.

But people have said that about Jews, interracial relationships and gay people holding hands in public.

People thought those were causing them discomfort so should we move to get rid of those too?

I would argue that their predjudice was causing their own discomfort as, like with this bathroom kerfuffle, they weren't in any danger from anything.

How is this any different?

 

[cullennz]

Transitioning to a gender and being forced to use another genders facilities means outing yourself to the community and being at a very real risk of abuse or violence.

How is that not a rational fear?

Do you mind clarifying very real risk. Other than one or two annecdotal incidents, as this seems to be what you are dismissive of with the other way round, and there are many incidents of pervs sneaking into other genders facilities and filming, posting footage etc.

While not usually violence, this is just as abusive.

Possibly being in the same room as genitals you feel icky about is not really a rational reason to cause the above.

Which is different from transgenders feeling "icky" and wanting to use another facility, how?

If there could be an actual argument put forward other than discomfort and vague unsupported rapist claims people would pay attention.

Again. Why does one lot's discomfort overide the others

Not sure about rapist claims, but as I said. There are plenty of cases sick stuff

 

[Delphic Oracle]

If we're going that route I might point out that there will be some men and some women who object to one, the other, or both directions of transgender persons at any stage in the process.

So the "what your birth certificate says" detractors are even at odds with the "what genitals you currently have" detractors.

No matter which way you go, someone will object.

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[DragonLady]

So another vague assertion that won't be up for discussion?

I'm thinking maybe the lack of running water for a thousand years or so probably might be why public baths went out of style.

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Well, yes, running water did help speed up, and probably popularize the transition.

But ancient bathhouses like the ones in Rome were a disease vector. The Romans knew hygiene was important; that's why they built the baths. But they knew nothing about germs, there were no disinfectants, and the water was only periodically drained.

Everyone bathed together -healthy and sick alike. When one person climbed in with gangrenous wounds or an infectious disease, others would become ill.

Is that a practice we want to bring back now? Granted, we can keep the water cleaner. But fewer people are immunizing their children, antibiotics are losing their effectiveness, health care isn't universal, and there are still plenty of people in this country who do not want to appear in any state of undress in a public area, for any reason.

What possible benefit would MOST people see?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disease_in_Imperial_Rome

 

[DreamingNaiad]

Do you mind clarifying very real risk. Other than one or two annecdotal incidents, as this seems to be what you are dismissive of with the other way round, and there are many incidents of pervs sneaking into other genders facilities and filming, posting footage etc.

While not usually violence, this is just as abusive.



Which is different from transgenders feeling "icky" and wanting to use another facility, how?



Again. Why does one lot's discomfort overide the others

Not sure about rapist claims, but as I said. There are plenty of cases sick stuff

https://www.glaad.org/blog/2016-was-deadliest-year-record-transgender-people
http://www.hrc.org/resources/violence-against-the-transgender-community-in-2017

Not all cases are attributed to the attacker knowing that the person is transgendered. Being outed means TG people are more likely to be discriminated against (maybe that's ok though because people have a vague discomfort, idk). Leading to unemployment and homelessness. Being homeless increases the risk of being hurt/raped/murdered. It is a horrible knock on effect that cannot be justified by a vague discomfort. At least not by me.

And the discomfort argument makes no sense because this would increase the number of male-looking people in womens facilities as the genitals are usually the last stage of the transition to be completed. Which shows that the argument is just a smoke-screen to allow discrimination imo.

Right now people are able to use whichever bathroom they want and, barring any long lines or emergencies, they use the one that fits their outward appearance. The people who claim discomfort are asking for that to stop. To restrict others based on their feelings. Since they are the ones asking gor a change it is up to them to justify it with a rational reason.

Do you have stats for the 'many pervs' and, more importantly, how many of them claimed to be TG to commit these crimes? If they didn't then I don't see the relevance. These bathroom laws wouldn't put up a barrier to repel penises.

 

[DreamingNaiad]

Well, yes, running water did help speed up, and probably popularize the transition.

But ancient bathhouses like the ones in Rome were a disease vector. The Romans knew hygiene was important; that's why they built the baths. But they knew nothing about germs, there were no disinfectants, and the water was only periodically drained.

Everyone bathed together -healthy and sick alike. When one person climbed in with gangrenous wounds or an infectious disease, others would become ill.

Is that a practice we want to bring back now? Granted, we can keep the water cleaner. But fewer people are immunizing their children, antibiotics are losing their effectiveness, and there are still plenty of people in this country who do not want to appear in any state of undress in a public area, for any reason.

What possible benefit would MOST people see?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disease_in_Imperial_Rome

I thought you were implying that unisex facilities were phased out due to increased civilised-ness and because they made people uncomfortable?

Now it is because communal bathing was unhygienic back in the day.

Do TG people increase child sickness?

Why are you undressed in front of people to pee?

 

[Delphic Oracle]

Well, yes, running water did help speed up, and probably popularize the transition.

But ancient bathhouses like the ones in Rome were a disease vector. The Romans knew hygiene was important; that's why they built the baths. But they knew nothing about germs, there were no disinfectants, and the water was only periodically drained.

Everyone bathed together -healthy and sick alike. When one person climbed in with gangrenous wounds or an infectious disease, others would become ill.

Is that a practice we want to bring back now? Granted, we can keep the water cleaner. But fewer people are immunizing their children, antibiotics are losing their effectiveness, health care isn't universal, and there are still plenty of people in this country who do not want to appear in any state of undress in a public area, for any reason.

What possible benefit would MOST people see?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disease_in_Imperial_Rome

Are transgender people more likely than most to spread disease to others like someone with gangrenous wounds or an infectious disease?

Was I even bringing up the logistics or was it the communal/social aspect of being in the same space nude together and how that reveals that these attitudes are fluid and there are no absolute rules about "comfort" because it's entirely subjective.

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[cullennz]

https://www.glaad.org/blog/2016-was-deadliest-year-record-transgender-people
http://www.hrc.org/resources/violence-against-the-transgender-community-in-2017

Not all cases are attributed to the attacker knowing that the person is transgendered. Being outed means TG people are more likely to be discriminated against (maybe that's ok though because people have a vague discomfort, idk).

Neither of those links mention toilets or changing rooms

Leading to unemployment and homelessness. Being homeless increases the risk of being hurt/raped/murdered. It is a horrible knock on effect that cannot be justified by a vague discomfort. At least not by me.

Again. Nothing to do with toilets or changing rooms

I have no doubt that transgenders suffer massive discrimination and hassles in their lives, but I also have no doubt that discomfort in toilets and changing rooms are probably not that high on the list of most stressfull

But then I'm not a transgender, and nor am I someone who particularly cares who is in the facilities I'm in. (Though I do care about who is in the facilities with my younger family members)

 

[DragonLady]

I thought you were implying that unisex facilities were phased out due to increased civilised-ness and because they made people uncomfortable?

Now it is because communal bathing was unhygienic back in the day.

Do TG people increase child sickness?

Why are you undressed in front of people to pee?

Are transgender people more likely than most to spread disease to others like someone with gangrenous wounds or an infectious disease?

Was I even bringing up the logistics or was it the communal/social aspect of being in the same space nude together and how that reveals that these attitudes are fluid and there are no absolute rules about "comfort" because it's entirely subjective.

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I respectfully ask:

If you can't answer to my arguments without intentionally mischaracterizing what I've said; then please don't answer my posts at all.

I told you a discussion of communal bathhouses would be a derail.

You were unhappy with that assertion, so I clarified.

Now you're trying to act as if that derail was somehow germane to the subject at hand.

That is intentionally mischaracterizing my words.

 

[DreamingNaiad]

Neither of those links mention toilets or changing rooms



Again. Nothing to do with toilets or changing rooms

I have no doubt that transgenders suffer massive discrimination and hassles in their lives, but I also have no doubt that discomfort in toilets and changing rooms are probably not that high on the list of most stressfull

But then I'm not a transgender, and nor am I someone who particularly cares who is in the facilities I'm in. (Though I do care about who is in the facilities with my younger family members)

Are you serious? Being outed leaves them open to discrimination. A causes B. Avoid outing people and let them live in peace. Where they pee doesn't affect or harm anyone.

Do you understand that? If no, then I'm stumped.

And why are you fearful of TG people using the same bathroom as children?

You conveniently to forgot to answer the part about these bills causing more male-looking people to be in womens toilets and forgot to answer about your perv stats.

I think I'm onto something about this just being about predjudice.

 

[DreamingNaiad]

I respectfully ask:

If you can't answer to my arguments without intentionally mischaracterizing what I've said; then please don't answer my posts at all.

I told you a discussion of communal bathhouses would be a derail.

You were unhappy with that assertion, so I clarified.

Now you're trying to act as if that derail was somehow germane to the subject at hand.

That is intentionally mischaracterizing my words.

I literally have no clue what you're argument is.

I can't pee in the same room as TG people and I'm right because we've been segregated from penises for thousands of years. Because ick.
-Not really. Communal facilities were common in Roman times.
But hygiene!
-How are TG people going to make toilets unhygienic?
That's not the point!

Then what is? You said ther were no communal facilites but there were. Then you claimed we got rid of them for hygiene insted of the 'discomfort' that is apparently so natural.

That is what your entire argument looks like to me. I'm trying desperately to understand so I'll ask you this:

Why can't you pee if someone else in the room might have a penis?
Will you be ok with a large bearded man using the ladies' since he hasn't had the last op? Or would you prefer people who look like men to use the mens'?
How will banning TG people stop rapists?
How many pervs in public bathrooms used an "I'm TG" defence?
You are asking to change the rules (people chose their own bathroom to 'genitals decide') so don't you feel there should have an actual solid argument with facts and figures and reason before things are changed? Discomfort doesn't seem like reason enough to change the way things already are.

 

[cullennz]

Are you serious? Being outed leaves them open to discrimination. A causes B. Avoid outing people and let them live in peace. Where they pee doesn't affect or harm anyone.

Do you understand that? If no, then I'm stumped.

And why are you fearful of TG people using the same bathroom as children?

You conveniently to forgot to answer the part about these bills causing more male-looking people to be in womens toilets and forgot to answer about your perv stats.

I think I'm onto something about this just being about predjudice.

Then link to the mass discrimination caused by toilets

I'm not fearful of TGs. I am not happy with anyone who wants to say they are one can just wonder round anywhere

I haven't answered the perv stats, because I am waiting for you to give the ones I asked for first which show proof of real risk of violence against TGs in toilets

But if it helps. Just with pervs, I suggest just googling "secretly filming women" (with quotes to make it that exact phrase) and look at the 6,570 results of cases for that exact wording alone.

If you want to go the whole research route, take the quotes away to make it broader and try the 687,000 of cases

 

[cullennz]

Actually. I apologise

I said children

Go with Secretly filming children and look at the 1,150,000 (it hit the search limit)

 

[Delphic Oracle]

I respectfully ask:

If you can't answer to my arguments without intentionally mischaracterizing what I've said; then please don't answer my posts at all.

I told you a discussion of communal bathhouses would be a derail.

You were unhappy with that assertion, so I clarified.

Now you're trying to act as if that derail was somehow germane to the subject at hand.

That is intentionally mischaracterizing my words.

I'm pointing out that your objections failed to address the relevant part of the comparison: social attitudes about communal nudity are not fixed, there is no definitive "rule" to follow.

That doesn't mean I think public baths without sanitary considerations should be brought back.

If transgender persons don't pose any more public health risk than any other person, then introducing disease concerns is entirely off the point.

It's only a derail (to you) because you won't bite on the on-topuc aspect of it.

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[DragonLady]

I literally have no clue what you're argument is.

Then why are you trying to argue with me at all?

If you don't want to know what I've had to say badly enough to actually read it, then what do you stand to gain trying to answer to it?

Fact: I never brought up communal bath houses.
Fact: I never claimed they didn't exist.
Fact: I never claimed they had any real relevance to this discussion at all.

I do know there's been some debate about the communal nature, but have never been interested enough to pursuit researching it.

Republican bathhouses often had separate bathing facilities for women and men, but by the 1st century AD mixed bathing was common and is a practice frequently referred to in Martial and Juvenal, as well as in Pliny and Quintilian. However, gender separation might have been restored by Emperor Hadrian[3] but there is evidence it wasn't. To many Roman moralists, baths illustrated how far the Rome of their own day had fallen into decline and so became a negative image; Cato the Elder publicly attacked Scipio Africanus for his use of the bathhouses.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Roman_bathing

At the end of the post: discussing historical bathing practices in a thread about the use of public facilities today is still, IMO, a derail.

 

[Delphic Oracle]

Actually. I apologise

I said children

Go with Secretly filming children and look at the 1,150,000 (it hit the search limit)

How many of them were in transition?

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[DreamingNaiad]

Then link to the mass discrimination caused by toilets

I'm not fearful of TGs. I am not happy with anyone who wants to say they are one can just wonder round anywhere

I haven't answered the perv stats, because I am waiting for you to give the ones I asked for first which show proof of real risk of violence against TGs in toilets

But if it helps. Just with pervs, I suggest just googling "secretly filming women" (with quotes to make it that exact phrase) and look at the 6,570 results for that exact wording alone.

If you want to go the whole research route, take the quotes away to make it broader and try the 687,000

To be clear, do you think that people outed by these laws wont be discriminated against when people find out?

Who is wandering around saying they are TG when they aren't? And do they outnumber genuine ones and do they all pose a danger?

Would these secret film pervs be actually stopped by these laws? There are laws against secret perv filming and those haven't stopped them so how will this help?

Saying TG people shouldn't be allowed to use their preferred bathroom because perverts always sounds the same as saying gays shouldn't be allowed to adopt because paedophiles.

 

[DragonLady]

It's only a derail (to you) because you won't bite on the on-topuc aspect of it.

What part of it is on-topic?

I wasn't alive when communal bathing was popular, and I highly doubt you were either. So we don't really know how public bathhouses functioned, what kinds of problems they faced, or what real benefits they offered. For that, we can only turn to archeology and whatever historical records there are, and then try to extrapolate from that data to a society now which is far, far different in almost every regard.

While I certainly do believe a working knowledge of the past is important, I don't think bringing back something that was almost entirely abandoned is the answer.

Gee, "A" isn't working; let's try "B".
Nope, "B" isn't working; let's try "A" again.

It's a textbook case of chasing one's tail, and I don't see any real benefit or progress to be had there.