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General Holocaust denial discussion Part III

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Jeffk 1970 said:
Saggy, was Hitler an antisemite for most of his life?
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Reread the book ... he comes to Vienna with the usual conception of the Jews, persecuted minority, etc .... after many political discussions with the Jews he describes his conversion to antisemitism, the next line after the quote above is ...

"Gradually I began to hate them."
 
Nick Terry said:
Ralf Georg Reuth, Hitlers Judenhass: Klischee und Wirklichkeit (2009) makes the convincing case that Dolfy fabricated his own autobiography regarding his antisemitism. Hitler was just another lie-witness.
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Kershaw in his Hitler biography , Rees in his book on Hitler (Hitler's Dark Charisma) and Ullrich in his Hitler biography all make the point that Hitler's antisemitism didn't exist in any large degree until after WW I. Hitler got along well with Jews in Vienna when he lived there. I know that is going to upset Saggy, I'm OK with that.
 
Saggy said:
Reread the book ... he comes to Vienna with the usual conception of the Jews, persecuted minority, etc .... after many political discussions with the Jews he describes his conversion to antisemitism, the next line after the quote above is ...

"Gradually I began to hate them."
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I remember that bit, Saggy. It's Hitler backdating his antisemitism to cover himself, it's a political move, that's all.
 
Nick Terry said:
Ralf Georg Reuth, Hitlers Judenhass: Klischee und Wirklichkeit (2009) makes the convincing ....
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Some people, if they want to bad enough, can be made to believe that the Nazis killed six million Jews in the most gruesome ways imaginable, and made the bodies disappear into thin air, without a trace.
 
Jeffk 1970 said:
I remember that bit, Saggy. It's Hitler backdating his antisemitism to cover himself, it's a political move, that's all.
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That is completely idiotic. What would be his motive? Take it from an antisemite, he gives a perfectly rational explanation for how he came to hate the Jews.
 
We seem to be wandering astray, here. Let's get Saggy back on target.

Saggy, my question to you was do you know what was happening in the USSR during 1936-1938?

Lemmy's questions were about Babbi Yar.

Could you address those, please?
 
Jeffk 1970 said:
Kershaw in his Hitler biography , Rees in his book on Hitler (Hitler's Dark Charisma) and Ullrich in his Hitler biography all make the point that Hitler's antisemitism didn't exist in any large degree until after WW I. Hitler got along well with Jews in Vienna when he lived there. I know that is going to upset Saggy, I'm OK with that.
Click to expand...

Reuth solidifies that point.
 
Saggy said:
That is completely idiotic. What would be his motive? Take it from an antisemite, he gives a perfectly rational explanation for how he came to hate the Jews.
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No, it makes perfect sense. He wanted to strengthen his nationalist/antisemitic ties, what better way than to stretch the timeline?

It's nice you are honest. Don't take that the wrong way, Saggy. I loathe antisemites and racists of all types but at least you don't try and hide it.
 
Saggy has gotten this where he wanted to - far, far from evidence for the mass murder at Babi Yar, which is causing him so much grief. And I'm ok with that. I like it when deniers get frustrated by reality.
 
Saggy said:
That is completely idiotic. What would be his motive? Take it from an antisemite, he gives a perfectly rational explanation for how he came to hate the Jews.
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Speaking of Mein Kampf, Saggy:

If during the War 12 or 15 thousand of these Hebrew corrupters of the people had been held under poison gas, as happened to hundreds of thousands of our best German workers in the field, the sacrifice of millions at the front would not have been in vain.
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:jaw-dropp

LOL
 
Jeffk 1970 said:
We seem to be wandering astray, here. Let's get Saggy back on target.

Saggy, my question to you was do you know what was happening in the USSR during 1936-1938?

Lemmy's questions were about Babbi Yar.

Could you address those, please?
Click to expand...

As Click (the Tappitt brother) says to Clack, 'we've wasted another perfectly good day ... '

and I'm off the the gym.
 
Jeffk 1970 said:
Kershaw in his Hitler biography , Rees in his book on Hitler (Hitler's Dark Charisma) and Ullrich in his Hitler biography all make the point that Hitler's antisemitism didn't exist in any large degree until after WW I. Hitler got along well with Jews in Vienna when he lived there. I know that is going to upset Saggy, I'm OK with that.
Click to expand...

I would be very careful about any assumption that Hitler wasn't an anti-Semite until after World War 1. I am familiar with the academic routine by which this is developed. The argument usually is Hitler got on well with various Jews before the end of World War 1 so he could not have been an anti-Semite.

At this point mention is made of Dr. Bloch, who treated Hitler's mother while she was dying of cancer and various other Jews Hitler ran into before the end of World War 1. And all this is used to "prove" that Hitler wasn't much of a anti-Semite before the end of the First World War.

The bottom line is it is a common trope among anti-Semites to have Jewish friends. That is not in the slightest unusual or strange. I can also give the example of Richard Wagner.

So I suspect that Hitler was probably an anti-Semite before the war. However I suspect it was the common conventional anti-Semitism of the time, (Conventional anti-Semitism at the time provided for many "exceptions".), and not the psychotic, paranoid, eliminatist anti-Semitism he had by 1920. That almost certainly developed in the period after the war.
 
Pacal said:
I would be very careful about any assumption that Hitler wasn't an anti-Semite until after World War 1. I am familiar with the academic routine by which this is developed. The argument usually is Hitler got on well with various Jews before the end of World War 1 so he could not have been an anti-Semite.

At this point mention is made of Dr. Bloch, who treated Hitler's mother while she was dying of cancer and various other Jews Hitler ran into before the end of World War 1. And all this is used to "prove" that Hitler wasn't much of a anti-Semite before the end of the First World War.

The bottom line is it is a common trope among anti-Semites to have Jewish friends. That is not in the slightest unusual or strange. I can also give the example of Richard Wagner.

So I suspect that Hitler was probably an anti-Semite before the war. However I suspect it was the common conventional anti-Semitism of the time, (Conventional anti-Semitism at the time provided for many "exceptions".), and not the psychotic, paranoid, eliminatist anti-Semitism he had by 1920. That almost certainly developed in the period after the war.
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I made sure to add "to any large degree" regarding Hitler's antisemitism. Your point is a valid.
 
Jeffk 1970 said:
We seem to be wandering astray, here. Let's get Saggy back on target.

Saggy, my question to you was do you know what was happening in the USSR during 1936-1938?

Lemmy's questions were about Babbi Yar.

Could you address those, please?
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Short answer: no, he's given up, and it's one of his favorite things, the Babi Yar massacre.
 
Saggy said:
That is completely idiotic. What would be his motive? Take it from an antisemite, he gives a perfectly rational explanation for how he came to hate the Jews.
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It was far from a rational explanation. One gets the impression that he sought to murder all Jews because he lost a few arguments with them. He came off as a pathetic loser. You do as well.
 
Be that as it may, I'd like Saggy, since he's drifted off from Babi Yar, to reply to the post I wrote about Warsaw, where I asked what happened to Jews from the ghetto there during July-September 1942 - exploring this would bring in Treblinka, so-called resettlement, and ghettos.
 
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