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General Holocaust denial discussion Part III

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Saggy said:
Anyone examining the holohoax will quickly discover that someone is lying, that is, either the hoaxers are deliberately and systematically lying, or the deniers are deliberately and systematically lying.
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You're provided your own demonstration that this is a false dilemma. By refusing to do more than a cursory look into this topic to support your antisemitism, you're shown that "deniers are wrong" is a very strong third category.
 
Saggy said:
All of Aktion 1005 is based on Blobel's completely absurd confession. The confession is a hoax, Aktion 1005 is a hoax, and Babi Yar is a hoax.
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Saggy, remember a few days ago when you blundered into taunting Nessie about SK-1005?

Well, in reply I posted this, which showed that SK-1005 was decidedly not documented by, or based on, or known through "Blobel's . . . confession," thus:
LemmyCaution said:
Some basic information on SK-1005 is found in these links (Sergey Romanov at HC, if you have questions, I will be glad to ask Sergey):
http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot.com/2016/02/once-more-with-feeling-deniers-and.html
http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot.co.uk/2016/09/from-vocabulary-of-aktion-1005_11.html
http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot.com/2017/04/another-sk-1005-update.html
http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot.com/2006/04/thats-why-it-is-denial-not-revisionism.html

My own take - without summarizing the whole project - includes some other evidence about the operation. I haven't researched SK-1005 in depth the way Sergey Romanov has but have come across a lot of evidence about the clean-up operation, and noted some of the items that rubbish denier claims that evidence for SK-1005 is lacking, including < snip long discussion of evidence from Lithuania and elsewhere about SK-1005 > here we have evidence totally undermining denier claims that there is no, er, evidence for SK-1005.
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So now, having ignored what's been said about SK-1005, you simply repeat your discredited nonsense?
 
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, or the deniers are deliberately and systematically lying.
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This is definitely the case. Ernst Zundel has been shown to have lied about the nature of war crimes trials. And one of Saggy's spammers has been shown to have lied about the USSR's policy vis a vis the Babi Yar massacre, something that Saggy has yet to respond to.

Deniers are not merely wrong. Zundel's example shows that they are deliberately spreading misinformation in the service of their agenda.
 
for those interested (I don't expect Saggy to be among them), here (from HDOT) is a more complete description of the corpse-destruction process at Babi Yar from multiple witnesses

also Blobel's interesting defense on charges relating to this from NMT Trial IX ("the Einstazgruppen trial"), Green Series, vol IV, p 88: "As to the order given by the Reich Security Main Office to Blobel in 1943 to open the mass graves in the East and to destroy the corpses completely, no argument for the defendant is needed in this respect. It cannot be understood why the burning or the destruction of corpses is supposed to be a criminal act, no matter why and by whom the executions were carried out."
 
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Yeah Saggy is down to disjointed trolling now. He makes un-evidenced claims - demands evidence, gets it, refuses to look at it - posts something trivial and demands more evidence that he has already pre-denied.

However I thank you for all the great material presented and do wish you were actually having a discussion instead of responding to a rather unprepared troll.
 
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Hans said:
Yeah Saggy is down to disjointed trolling now. He makes un-evidenced claims - demands evidence, gets it, refuses to look at it - posts something trivial and demands more evidence that he has already pre-denied.

However I thank you for all the great material presented and do wish you were actually having a discussion instead of responding to a rather unprepared troll.
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This shows in fact why you can't have a discussion and even less a debate with deniers.

They will keep doing wild claims that are not based on any evidence but that take time to consistently rebuke. And once you have done it they will jump to another wild claim and start a Gish gallop that distract the audience and make unprepared auditors believe they might have some arguments.

As a matter of fact denialists arguments have been thoroughly debunked since years in books and other scholar studies but they keep repeating them at nauseam, probably in order to hide they have in fact nothing relevant to say or to write on the topic.
 
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Let's also have a pained chuckle about Blobel's defense against the main charges against him in the Einstazgruppen trial:

- war is “inhumane” p 83 and “The war in the East was specially characterized by atrocities and cruelties on both sides” p 85

- Germans “acknowledge an authority over them which may prescribe to them how to behave" far more than people of other nationalities; Prussian military education and a special German national character p 84

- “Blobel cannot be rendered responsible for the reported, ‘large-scale actions’ and ‘reprisals’, because these were partly measures ordered by other agencies - Higher SS and Police Chief, chief of Einsatzgruppe, town commander - and carried out by other units” p 85

- reprisals as ordered by Riechenau are legal under international law p 85 (no, they aren’t, not of this type)

- the numbers killed could not be achieved - this in complete contradiction to the point above about “other units” - by just 52 men p 86

- superior orders p 87

- information in the EMs was not always completely accurate pp 106-107 (“It will not and cannot be denied that the documents submitted are 'genuine' evidence, that is to say, that the documents in question were actually drafted by the Reich Security Main Office. However, this does not exclude the established fact that the reported incidents may not be the pure truth”, e.g., “the figure of 33,771, mentioned to me as the number of persons executed in Kiev, is too high. In my opinion not more than half of the mentioned figure were shot” p 213

- for some of the time - not specified when - during the executions, Blobel was in hospital, thus “During the period of my absence the Kommando was taken over by Dr. Rasch, Waldemar von Radetzky, and SS Captain Dr. Beyer; under their direction a number of mass executions took place, too” p 213

(references from Green Series, vol IV)
 
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Well, it appears that my demonstration that Blobel's confession is absurd was missed altogether. And along with it the entire idiocy of the six million killed but no bodies. I could say a few words about that myself .... but ... I do have a quote that is to the point ....


"The more I argued with them, the better I came to know their dialectic. First they counted on the stupidity of their adversary, and then, when there was no other way out, they themselves simply played stupid. If all this didn't help, they pretended not to understand, or, if challenged, they changed the subject in a hurry, quoted platitudes which, if you accepted them, they immediately related to entirely different matters, and then, if again attacked, gave ground and pretended not to know exactly what you were talking about. Whenever you tried to attack one of these apostles, your hand closed on a jelly-like slime which divided up and poured through your fingers, but in the next moment collected again. But if you really struck one of these fellows so telling a blow that, observed by the audience, he couldn't help but agree, and if you believed that this had taken you at least one step forward, your amazement was great the next day. The Jew had not the slightest recollection of the day before, he rattled off his same old nonsense as though nothing at all had happened, and, if indignantly challenged, affected amazement; he couldn't remember a thing, except that he had proved the correctness of his assertions the previous day.

Sometimes I stood there thunderstruck.

I didn't know what to be more amazed at: the agility of their tongues or their virtuosity at lying.
 
Saggy said:
Well, it appears that my demonstration that Blobel's confession is absurd was missed altogether. And along with it the entire idiocy of the six million killed but no bodies. I could say a few words about that myself .... but ... I do have a quote that is to the point ....


"The more I argued with them, the better I came to know their dialectic. First they counted on the stupidity of their adversary, and then, when there was no other way out, they themselves simply played stupid. If all this didn't help, they pretended not to understand, or, if challenged, they changed the subject in a hurry, quoted platitudes which, if you accepted them, they immediately related to entirely different matters, and then, if again attacked, gave ground and pretended not to know exactly what you were talking about. Whenever you tried to attack one of these apostles, your hand closed on a jelly-like slime which divided up and poured through your fingers, but in the next moment collected again. But if you really struck one of these fellows so telling a blow that, observed by the audience, he couldn't help but agree, and if you believed that this had taken you at least one step forward, your amazement was great the next day. The Jew had not the slightest recollection of the day before, he rattled off his same old nonsense as though nothing at all had happened, and, if indignantly challenged, affected amazement; he couldn't remember a thing, except that he had proved the correctness of his assertions the previous day.

Sometimes I stood there thunderstruck.

I didn't know what to be more amazed at: the agility of their tongues or their virtuosity at lying.
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Your quote describes everything you've done here very well.
 
Saggy said:
Well, it appears that my demonstration that Blobel's confession is absurd was missed altogether.
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No, what you said is absurd. Saggy, we have German documents showing the reality of Aktion 1005. Why do you not address this?
 
Saggy said:
"The more I argued with them, the better I came to know their dialectic. First they counted on the stupidity of their adversary, and then, when there was no other way out, they themselves simply played stupid. If all this didn't help, they pretended not to understand, or, if challenged, they changed the subject in a hurry, quoted platitudes which, if you accepted them, they immediately related to entirely different matters, and then, if again attacked, gave ground and pretended not to know exactly what you were talking about. Whenever you tried to attack one of these apostles, your hand closed on a jelly-like slime which divided up and poured through your fingers, but in the next moment collected again. But if you really struck one of these fellows so telling a blow that, observed by the audience, he couldn't help but agree, and if you believed that this had taken you at least one step forward, your amazement was great the next day. The Jew had not the slightest recollection of the day before, he rattled off his same old nonsense as though nothing at all had happened, and, if indignantly challenged, affected amazement; he couldn't remember a thing, except that he had proved the correctness of his assertions the previous day.
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Is your paranoid delusional fantasy include thinking we are all Jews?
 
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