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General Holocaust denial discussion Part III

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Saggy, because I'm afraid that you will do serious damage to self and others if you continue trying to use Google search without professional support, here's a single link summarizing and even translating salient documentary evidence for Babi Yar: Evidence on the Babi Yar Massacre 29 & 30 September 1941: Contemporary Sources, to be supplemented with Evidence on the Babi Yar Massacre 29 & 30 September 1941: Testimonies.
Please, don't thank me, thank Hans Metzner who has done a series of these, including on gas vans - key documents, Rebuttal of Alvarez on Gas Vans (11 parts) - and now on Chełmno - SK Lange and euthanasia, origin and foundation of Chełmno (Kulmhof), and extermination of 100,000 Jews (more to come).
 
LemmyCaution said:
Saggy, because I'm afraid that you will do serious damage to self and others if you continue trying to use Google search without professional support, here's a single link summarizing and even translating salient documentary evidence for Babi Yar: Evidence on the Babi Yar Massacre 29 & 30 September 1941: Contemporary Sources, to be supplemented with Evidence on the Babi Yar Massacre 29 & 30 September 1941: Testimonies.
Please, don't thank me, thank Hans Metzner who has done a series of these, including on gas vans - key documents, Rebuttal of Alvarez on Gas Vans (11 parts) - and now on Chełmno - SK Lange and euthanasia, origin and foundation of Chełmno (Kulmhof), and extermination of 100,000 Jews (more to come).
Click to expand...

Well written, what an excellent presentation.

Unfortunately, while well presented, the content is all garbage, as I'll now demonstrate ....

What Happend at Babi Yar, Fact vs. Myth

The Moral and Intellectual Bankruptcy of a Scholar

BABI YAR
Why do so many believe in the absurd Holocaustᵀᴹ myth?

Air Photo Evidence - Holocaust Handbooks

Interview With Professor
Robert Faurisson

David Irving -
What Happened at Babi Yar, Fact vs. Myth

Babi Yar - Critical Comments
and Questions

Mass Graves at Vinnitsia, Poems for Babi Yar

I hope these articles bring you to a full realization of the absurdity of the Babi Yar hoax.
 
Saggy said:
Well written, what an excellent presentation.

Unfortunately, while well presented, the content is all garbage, as I'll now demonstrate ....

Air Photo Evidence - Holocaust Handbooks

I hope these articles bring you to a full realization of the absurdity of the Babi Yar hoax.
Click to expand...

Yawn. The only thing John Ball (author of the "Air Photo Evidence Handbook") has proven is his own incompetence and dishonesty. Typical denier.

http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot.com/2006/08/thats-why-it-is-denial-not-revisionism.html

The green overlay is what John Ball "analyzed" compared to the actual size of the Babi Yar ravine.

205942659_377843f304_o.jpg


OK, so Ball "missed" most of the ravine in his "analysis". For those who know deniers' methods this is not really surprising.
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That quote is from Sergey Romanov at Holocaust Controversies. And the post was written 2006! Saggy, why haven't you kept up?
 
Saggy said:
Well written, what an excellent presentation.

Unfortunately, while well presented, the content is all garbage, as I'll now demonstrate ....
Click to expand...
Random links some of which have been debunked, so to speak ("Babi Yar - Critical Comments and Questions", contradict one another, ramble, repeat silly formulas (like there only being 3000 EG members), use vague innuendo instead of analysis ("suspiciously" precise figures!), and engage in bad history (from misunderstanding Wannsee to outright negation of whole events because sources differ on details). Sadly, the hotel I'm in has terrible wi-fi and thus the Holocaust Handbooks PDF, which I don't have a copy of, won't open here (I recall that denier claims about the air photos were debunked at HC years ago . . . will check later). The rest of the materials you've linked to don't even deal with the sources I've shared with you, except in a few cases in the most cursory manner.

For now, just a few random points, random because of the randomness of these pieces:

Nikiforuk writes that
The media also failed to mention that almost every major historian, including "Holocaust expert" Prof. Raul Hilberg, considers the atrocities mentioned in these reports as exaggerated.
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Which historians? Can you tell us which ones, as Nikiforuk gives no citation to Hilberg and mentions not another of these "almost every major historians."

I ask because, on Babi Yar, Hilberg has written (Destruction, p 300):
In one of the first of these actions, Einsatzkommando 4a struck at the ghetto of Zhitomir at 4 a.m. on September 19, and obliterated the entire community, killing 3,145.22 The Kommando went on to Kiev, where it killed 33,771 Jews on September 29 and 30.23.
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And on p 406:
In June 1942, Himmler ordered the commander of Sonderkommando 4a, Standartenführer Paul Blobel, ‘‘to erase the traces of Einsatzgruppen executions in the East.’’ Blobel formed a special Kommando with the code designation 1005. The Kommando had the task of digging up graves and burning bodies. Blobel traveled all over the occupied territories, looking for graves and conferring with Security Police o≈cials. Once he took a visitor from the RSHA (Hartl) for a ride and, like a guide showing historical places to a tourist, pointed to the mass graves near Kiev where his own men had killed 34,000 Jews.
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On Babi Yar, Hilberg does not seem to mention exaggerated figures, at least I can't find him doing so.

This same guy, Nikiforuk, writes at some length about a US report about a German doctor, Gustav Schuebbe, who allegedly ran a murder institute in Kiev, where patients were murdered by injection. Please, what does this case have to do with evidence for/against the mass executions at Babi Yar? And why is this random point included - if not simply to muddy waters?

By the way here is where Christian Lindtner deals with some of the tired, repetitious arguments of Graf on Babi Yar.

And your Tiedemann thinks he's found a logical hole in the case for Babi Yar:
The mass murder at Babi Yar took place almost four months prior to the Wannsee Conference, where the killing was allegedly first planned.
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He can't be serious, and neither can you, with such rubbish. The Wannsee Conference was not, as all serious students of the Holocaust have long known, where the mass murder of Jews was planned. It was a coordinating conference, meant to confirm roles and responsibilities and align parts of the German government - continuing the early murders in the East which followed Barbarossa. The focus of the Wannsee meeting was European-wide, not on Soviet occupied territory; as the murders in the occupied USSR had been taking place for months, under Heydrich's orders - and reported on to Berlin - at Wannsee the exterminations in the East were seen as early experience for planners to build on. Hitler didn't decide the Final Solution until December 1941 - that is, the mass murder of European Jews - and this decision at that time in no way suggests that the earlier murders in the USSR didn't occur. That's just silly and shows how bereft and useless your authors are.

Finally, for now, Nikiforuk says that "Soviet archival records reveal that the atrocity propaganda about Katyn and Babi Yar was fabricated by Ilya Ehrenburg and Vasily Grossman . . ."
(1) Citation, please. Nikiforuk doesn’t provide one, so I am asking that you do so.
(2) We have the not-so-small matter of German documents, however, and Ukrainian and Jewish reports, many of them contemporaneous. (I know, Nikiforuk claims that these things don’t exist . . . but look back at my first post on this!)
(3) Graf thus claims that the Einsatzgruppen reports are “frauds” - because he has to, given what they say and their timing.

The problem for Graf, and you, is simple: again, look back at my first post on this or at Hans Metzner’s discussion of documents and testimonies. We’re not talking about just EMs, no, we are talking about a host of witnesses and contemporary diarists AND German documents from Propagandakompanie 637, Army Ammunition Depot Berditschew to Commander of the Army Rear Area South, the HSSPF-South, the 454th Security Division, Hans Koch, liaison officer of the Reich Ministry for the Occupied Eastern Territories, 113th Infantry Division, Paul Dargel (Reichskommissariat Ukraine), Abwehr*officer Erwin Stolze, Abwehr officer E. Kumming, Martin Luther (German Foreign Office), Johannes Hähle of Propagandakompanie 637, to mention most reviewed by Hans Metzner.

Are all these documents also fraudulent? Did someone forge or alter them? Why didn’t Graf tell us about this? What’s your argument concerning them?

I ask you now: prove that the EMs are fraudulent and, if you think so, all these other documents, too. Show us how, when, by whom, under whose orders, and for what purpose the fraud was carried out.

Saggy said:
I hope these articles bring you to a full realization of the absurdity of the Babi Yar hoax.
Click to expand...
More later - I'm off to dinner. But, thanks for the good reminder of how little revisionism has to offer.
 
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Saggy said:
Well written, what an excellent presentation.

Unfortunately, while well presented, the content is all garbage, as I'll now demonstrate ....
Click to expand...

As I stated some time ago Saggy doesn't do evidence he simply repeats what he has been told to believe.

You guys are wasting your time...I mean you are putting out really great info but there is no actual debate here there is your information then denial.
 
Hans said:
As I stated some time ago Saggy doesn't do evidence he simply repeats what he has been told to believe.

You guys are wasting your time...I mean you are putting out really great info but there is no actual debate here there is your information then denial.
Click to expand...
A method to the madness perhaps ;)
 
LemmyCaution said:
Random links some of which have been debunked, so to speak ("Babi Yar - Critical Comments and Questions", contradict one another, ramble, repeat silly formulas (like there only being 3000 EG members), use vague innuendo instead of analysis ("suspiciously" precise figures!), and engage in bad history (from misunderstanding Wannsee to outright negation of whole events because sources differ on details). Sadly, the hotel I'm in has terrible wi-fi and thus the Holocaust Handbooks PDF, which I don't have a copy of, won't open here (I recall that denier claims about the air photos were debunked at HC years ago . . . will check later). The rest of the materials you've linked to don't even deal with the sources I've shared with you, except in a few cases in the most cursory manner.

For now, just a few random points, random because of the randomness of these pieces:

Nikiforuk writes that
Which historians? Can you tell us which ones, as Nikiforuk gives no citation to Hilberg and mentions not another of these "almost every major historians."

I ask because, on Babi Yar, Hilberg has written (Destruction, p 300):
And on p 406:
On Babi Yar, Hilberg does not seem to mention exaggerated figures, at least I can't find him doing so.

This same guy, Nikiforuk, writes at some length about a US report about a German doctor, Gustav Schuebbe, who allegedly ran a murder institute in Kiev, where patients were murdered by injection. Please, what does this case have to do with evidence for/against the mass executions at Babi Yar? And why is this random point included - if not simply to muddy waters?

By the way here is where Christian Lindtner deals with some of the tired, repetitious arguments of Graf on Babi Yar.

And your Tiedemann thinks he's found a logical hole in the case for Babi Yar:
He can't be serious, and neither can you, with such rubbish. The Wannsee Conference was not, as all serious students of the Holocaust have long known, where the mass murder of Jews was planned. It was a coordinating conference, meant to confirm roles and responsibilities and align parts of the German government - continuing the early murders in the East which followed Barbarossa. The focus of the Wannsee meeting was European-wide, not on Soviet occupied territory; as the murders in the occupied USSR had been taking place for months, under Heydrich's orders - and reported on to Berlin - at Wannsee the exterminations in the East were seen as early experience for planners to build on. Hitler didn't decide the Final Solution until December 1941 - that is, the mass murder of European Jews - and this decision at that time in no way suggests that the earlier murders in the USSR didn't occur. That's just silly and shows how bereft and useless your authors are.

Finally, for now, Nikiforuk says that "Soviet archival records reveal that the atrocity propaganda about Katyn and Babi Yar was fabricated by Ilya Ehrenburg and Vasily Grossman . . ."
(1) Citation, please. Nikiforuk doesn’t provide one, so I am asking that you do so.
(2) We have the not-so-small matter of German documents, however, and Ukrainian and Jewish reports, many of them contemporaneous. (I know, Nikiforuk claims that these things don’t exist . . . but look back at my first post on this!)
(3) Graf thus claims that the Einsatzgruppen reports are “frauds” - because he has to, given what they say and their timing.

The problem for Graf, and you, is simple: again, look back at my first post on this or at Hans Metzner’s discussion of documents and testimonies. We’re not talking about just EMs, no, we are talking about a host of witnesses and contemporary diarists AND German documents from Propagandakompanie 637, Army Ammunition Depot Berditschew to Commander of the Army Rear Area South, the HSSPF-South, the 454th Security Division, Hans Koch, liaison officer of the Reich Ministry for the Occupied Eastern Territories, 113th Infantry Division, Paul Dargel (Reichskommissariat Ukraine), Abwehr*officer Erwin Stolze, Abwehr officer E. Kumming, Martin Luther (German Foreign Office), Johannes Hähle of Propagandakompanie 637, to mention most reviewed by Hans Metzner.

Are all these documents also fraudulent? Did someone forge or alter them? Why didn’t Graf tell us about this? What’s your argument concerning them?

I ask you now: prove that the EMs are fraudulent and, if you think so, all these other documents, too. Show us how, when, by whom, under whose orders, and for what purpose the fraud was carried out.


More later - I'm off to dinner. But, thanks for the good reminder of how little revisionism has to offer.
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I'm just watching as you roll out the rope, which which I will hang the whole absurd argument and every lie in the entire charade. Remember, this is one of my favorite topics. Do your best :)
 
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Saggy said:
I'm just watching as you roll out the rope, which which I will hang the whole absurd argument and every lie in the entire charade. Remember, this is one of my favorite topics. Do your best :)
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Saggy pretending that you are suddenly going to turn from someone equivalent to a turnip in doing research to a blazing intellectual tiger is a bit juvenile - don't you think? All you have shown is amateur denial and posting links to things well beyond you to understand/explain or defend and often not even knowing they were debunked generations ago.

...but please we will all wait for your evidence laden attack----will it consist of the word 'degenerate' and an incomplete sentence?

LOL
 
Saggy said:
I'm just watching as you roll out the rope, which which I will hang the whole absurd argument and every lie in the entire charade. Remember, this is one of my favorite topics. Do your best :)
Click to expand...

You so far have been proven incorrect on a variety of topics. I dispute that you spend much time at all reading about The Holocaust. John Ball, for example, has been refuted and irrelevant for over 15 years.
 
LeoMajor said:
You so far have been proven incorrect on a variety of topics. I dispute that you spend much time at all reading about The Holocaust. John Ball, for example, has been refuted and irrelevant for over 15 years.
Click to expand...

I believe Saggy thinks its 1933
 
LemmyCaution said:
Finally, for now, Nikiforuk says that "Soviet archival records reveal that the atrocity propaganda about Katyn and Babi Yar was fabricated by Ilya Ehrenburg and Vasily Grossman . . ."
(1) Citation, please. Nikiforuk doesn’t provide one, so I am asking that you do so.
(2) We have the not-so-small matter of German documents, however, and Ukrainian and Jewish reports, many of them contemporaneous. (I know, Nikiforuk claims that these things don’t exist . . . but look back at my first post on this!)
(3) Graf thus claims that the Einsatzgruppen reports are “frauds” - because he has to, given what they say and their timing.

More later - I'm off to dinner. But, thanks for the good reminder of how little revisionism has to offer.
Click to expand...

"Soviet Archival records" revealed no such thing. If anything, Soviet Archival records reveal the complete lack of any "atrocity propaganda" about Babi Yar. Saggy can thank Herbert Tiedemann for this.

http://www.e-reading.club/chapter.p...abi_Yar__Critical_Questions_and_Comments.html

After the end of the war the Soviets turned the ravine of Babi Yar into a municipal garbage dump, and later into a garbage incineration site.[116]

That the Soviets intended to build a sports facility over the site of indescribable crimes is no less incomprehensible…[117],[118]

To the best of this author's knowledge, Khrushchev's reprimand to Yevtushenko was never made public in the western world. Did this terse rebuke perhaps reflect the plain and simple truth?

Just what is self-evident about Babi Yar?
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What's self evident is that this "Nikiforuk" guy is a liar, and has absolutely no idea about the actual policies of the USSR towards the Holocaust in General and Babi Yar in particular. They didn't "manufacture" any atrocity propaganda about it: as Tiedemann shows, they covered it up because since the majority of the victims at BY were Jews who were killed for being Jews, it contradicted their narrative of Capitalists killing communists. Ehrenburg and Grossman didn't manufacture anything; like most Soviet Jews, they did not dictate the policy of the USSR and had no ability to shape it or define whatever "atrocity propaganda" the non Jews who ran the USSR wanted.
 
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