I'm sorry, but hasn't it been pointed out repeatedly that Eric Hunt has denounced Holocaust denial? I don't really see any value in Saggy's spamming of Hunt's Treblinka video since Hunt himself admitted that his videos are false and misleading.
General Holocaust denial discussion Part III
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Latvians participated in Communism in numbers equal to if not exceedng those of Jews. 78 out of every 1000 Latvians were bolsheviks, compared to only 7 out of 1000 Jews. In the first decade of Soviet Power under Lenin, Latvians were the largest group in the Cheka numbering at about 3/4s, far, far more than the highest observed participation of Jews in the NKVD(34%). Also, the main perpetrator of the Holodomor was a Latvian named Stanislav Redens.
Saggy's rubbish about Latvian "support" for the Nazis against so called "Jewish communists" can be explained as the following. Latvians (like Poles and Hungarians) are focusing on the small minority of Jews who participated in communism to distract from their own, much larger participation.
Saggy's rubbish about Latvian "support" for the Nazis against so called "Jewish communists" can be explained as the following. Latvians (like Poles and Hungarians) are focusing on the small minority of Jews who participated in communism to distract from their own, much larger participation.
Hans
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I recommend something you actually know something about and can discuss instant of 'post trash and run'.
Holocaust controversies is good enough that the Auschwitz museum automatically cites them whenever Deniers troll them on twitter. Their word is a lot more reliable than anything Saggy has "contributed" here so far.
smartcooky
Penultimate Amazing
We've been tuned for a few hundred posts, and what have we seen from you so far?
1. You've posted nothing but old, tired, previously and repeatedly debunked denialist BS.
2. You've debated dishonestly by repeatedly dodging legitimate questions, the answers to which you KNOW will tear the guts out of your claims.
3. You've clearly been floundering because you do not have the knowledge base to debate from a position of actually knowing what you are talking about (due to your stubborn refusal to read the literature).
4. You've been handed your arse on numerous occasions by Holocaust proponents who clearly know a lot more about your claimed area of expertise than you do.
It must be quite obvious to everyone here that, like any good conspiracy theorist, your goal has been to bog down the discussion in BS rather than make any real progress toward the truth. You might be able to get away with unevidenced claims and unsupported assertions in the echo chambers of pro-denialist forums, but the skeptics here are too smart and way too experienced to let you get away with it. It has been a lot of fun watching you squirm as you have come to realise that; I hope the lurkers here have seen from your example, just how dishonest denialists are in pursuit of their jew-hating obsession.
You need to raise your game and bring actual EVIDENCE to the table to support your claims.
I'm not holding my breath!
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abaddon
Penultimate Amazing
What a load.
Had you your own private cemetery in your back yard, it would be mapped forensically.
As for Duffy's Cut, of 57 victims, only 6 were recovered as they were interred individually. The remaining 51 were buried in a mass grave which was never "dug up". The site was however....mapped.
Move along to the holocaust sites. The bodies of the dead were buried, rotted, exhumed, cremated, ground up, mixed together and variously re-interred/scattered/chucked in rivers etc. Even if one were to extract DNA successfully (a mammoth task in itself) it tells you nothing about who it might belong to unless one compares it to a relatives DNA. Thus for each distinct DNA sample extracted, one must compare it to the ENTIRE POPULATION OF EUROPE if one hopes to match it. Even then, since entire families were wiped out, there may not be a match at all and even distant relatives may be part of the diaspora.
The sheer scale of such an effort mitigates against even making the attempt and no actual results are guaranteed. Do you really think that this would be a trivial effort? Who knows? Perhaps you think DNA contains name, address and SSN. All DNA would get you is "It is human and appears to be of ethnicity ABC". What do you think should be the next step? Match it against the 1945 database of everyone in Europe? Nope. There was no such thing then and there still is no such thing to this day. So do tell. You have a DNA sample, what are you going to do with it?
And was still going on when he left...
It's all what remain available to him since he has no relevant arguments to sustain his position.
Nessie
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Capitalising on the fact that the Nazis cremated the dead to prevent easy identification and a body count and pretending that means you can claim no mass graves at the AR camps. Despite archaeological evidence to the contrary.
Posting a debunked video whose creator has accepted he was wrong.
Refusing to show where all those you claim were not killed subsequently went.
We just keep you going here to keep up the proof no denialist is interested in finding the truth of what happened.
Nessie
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The difference between buried corpses and cremated remains is yet another point denialists ignore.
It was worthwhile excavating at Katyn because the uniforms told us who was dead, the bodies could be counted and the cause of death, a bullet to the head, could be established.
It is not worthwhile excavating cremated remains as ID, body counts and cause of death cannot be established.
Saggy will of course ignore this inconvenient fact.
LemmyCaution
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Indeed, and I went to the trouble to help Saggy on this by tracking down an archived webpage for the posting Hunt made, "End of the Line," explaining why he can no longer accept HD, and provided Saggy with a link to the page.
Note that Hunt's explanation included the telling observation about deniers that many are "dangerous, irrational deceivers like the Paul McCartney deniers and flat earthers they collaborate with."
In reply to a denier who challenged his change of mind, Hunt wrote that deniers "are hiding evidence that doesn’t suit their bias. If they really want credibility, a place to start is to accept what happened at Babi Yar."
The tactics which Hunt had inside experience with are like what we see in this thread from deniers, in the present case like Saggy's "debat[ing] dishonestly by repeatedly dodging legitimate questions, the answers to which you KNOW will tear the guts out of your claims" or like his omitting the inconvenient part of Wiener's deposition (and misstating other parts).
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Actually, I was doing you a favor by not bringing up the Aktion 1005? idiocy. And most of you had the good sense not to bring it up yourselves. Then came Nessie.
It's so absurd it's not worth my repeating. Why don't you tell us about it
LemmyCaution
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Some basic information on SK-1005 is found in these links (Sergey Romanov at HC, if you have questions, I will be glad to ask Sergey):Actually, I was doing you a favor by not bringing up the Aktion 1005? idiocy. And most of you had the good sense not to bring it up yourselves. Then came Nessie.
It's so absurd it's not worth my repeating. Why don't you tell us about it
http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot.com/2016/02/once-more-with-feeling-deniers-and.html
http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot.co.uk/2016/09/from-vocabulary-of-aktion-1005_11.html
http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot.com/2017/04/another-sk-1005-update.html
http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot.com/2006/04/thats-why-it-is-denial-not-revisionism.html
My own take - without summarizing the whole project - includes some other evidence about the operation. I haven't researched SK-1005 in depth the way Sergey Romanov has but have come across a lot of evidence about the clean-up operation, and noted some of the items that rubbish denier claims that evidence for SK-1005 is lacking, including:
* The Polish underground was informed about the work of Sonderkommando 1005 in destroying the evidence of the crimes of the Germans in the east: on 4 November 1943 Biuletyn Informacyjny reported that what it described as “liquidation actions” concerning the mass graves of the Jews, where Germans were said to be burning the bodies of victims to conceal the murders. (Zimmerman, The Polish Underground and the Jews, 1939-1945, p 364)
* report of the SD District Office Bad Neustadt, General Mood and Situation, Bad Neustadt, 15 October 1943, StA Wü, SD-Hauptaufßenstelle Würzburg Nr. 14):
Kulka & Jäckel, The Jews in the Secret Nazi Reports on Popular Opinion in Germany, 1933-1945, p 635 (this report indicates that Germans on the home front were hearing about the work of SK 1005 and/or corpse cremation efforts at death camps during 1943, almost in real time, and that the SD had concerns about this, whereas deniers would have it that the Soviets invented such stuff after the war)
* 64 slave-laborers working in SK1005-B at the IX Fort in Kaunas (unearthing and cremating the corpses of Jews murdered in the IX Fort during the German occupation, mostly in 1941) escaped on Christmas 1943. They split into 3 groups, two of which made their way to the Kaunas ghetto to contact the Jewish underground and one going directly to the forests to try hooking up with partisans.
Faitelson in The Truth and Nothing But the Truth: Jewish Resistance in Lithuania provides a detailed account of the escape. But he also includes German and Lithuanian documentation about the aftermath of the escape:
- radiogram no. 643, sent to a local police chief (Rokiškis) on 26 December 1943, with early and erroneous information, directing his office to search for the escapees (p 252)
- a follow-up message (no. 651) sent on the same day by the chief of the Lithuanian constabulary providing information (still not accurate) to assist in the search for the escapees; the message said that sixteen of the escapees had “typical Jewish faces”); the message noted that “All the escapees exude a specific stench” (the escapees, aware that their work with rotting corpses caused this order, made cleaning themselves up one of their first tasks in the ghetto) (pp 252-253; reproduced in Lithuanian on p 254)
- another follow-up message, this one sent on 27 December by Schulz, a German police officer, to police headquarters in Vilnius, urging that the escapees by sought “vigorously” (p 253)
- a police message sent 26 December with information on the escapees and directing urgently that they be captured; this message included a sentence reading, “The terrible stench arouses special notice” (pp 255-256)
- two or three other examples of messages giving search instructions to local police across Lithuania, including one on 26 December that the “entrance from Rovno to Shavli should be checked in order to catch them in the area of the forest” (pp 255-256) and another one from Lithuanian collaborator A. Lileikis providing more information on the escapees (p 256)
- records of teaches conducted on 30-31 December 1943 by Lithuanian units under command of the Gestapo, in the Babtai and Vandzhiogala forests (p 255)
- a 13 January German police report specifically describing the escapees as “sixty-four workers employed on campaign 1005-B,” “B” being the designation for the Sonderkommando crew whose members were involved in the escape; this report stated that 37 escapees had been captured (p 257)
- reports sent by Kaltenbrunner to Himmler regarding the commanders of the IX Fort and Kaunas police force who were in charge and on whose watch the escape occurred; Kaltenbrunner sent messages to Himmler on 12 January 1944, 3 February 1944, and 26 February 1944; the messages describe the arrests of Obersturmführer Radif, commander of the IX Fort, and gendarme Apelt for negligence, mentions the number of escapees captured (37, Kaltenbrunner either was given bad information on the escape process and search or lied to Himmler, including the erroneous detail that the leader of the escape was already captured), made a plea to return Radif and Apelt to duty with a pardon (then asked for retrospective permission for the release of the two from house arrest, which Kaltenbrunner had done on his own), and recommended halting further judicial investigation
- on 29 February 1944, Himmler replied to Kaltenbrunner, by way of a message from SS judge Bender, agreeing to time server for Radif and Apelt and their return to duty with a stern warning to honor Himmler’s leniency by showing in their performance that they deserved it (pp 262-263)
- reproductions of Kaltenbrunner’s reports to Himmler made on 12 January 1944, 3 February 1944, and 26 February 1944 and a reproduction of SS judge Bender’s approval message back to Kaltenbrunner (pp 266-272)
Interesting material from a number of angles - Kaltenbrunner's reports are at odds with how he tried having his role post-war, the documents depict the urgency surrounding both the danger to the Reich posed by this escape and the confidentiality of the work (e.g., the quashing of further investigation), and here we have evidence totally undermining denier claims that there is no, er, evidence for SK-1005.
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LemmyCaution
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Btw the reason few comments (I know that abaddon besides Nessie mentioned this, I think others did too) have been made about SK-1005 is that its work is assumed, given how well known it is.
Jeffk 1970
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Jew led NKVD?
The head of the NKVD at that time was not a Jew, it was Lavrentiy Beria. The ultimate decision to execute the Polish officers rested with Joseph Stalin, again, not a Jew.
The man who organized the selection of prisoners to be executed was Major General P.K. Sprunenko, head of the NKVD POW Unit. As far as I know he was not a Jew, the same with the actual executioner, Vasili Blokhin. Biographical information is lacking for Spruneko but Blokhin was born to a peasant family in Suzdal, a town located outside of the Pale of Settlement.
So, would you like to reassess the whole "Jew led" thing?
Or, perhaps you'd like to give us the statistics regarding the ethnic makeup of the NKVD?
First, Chuchill's paper on the subject,
Zionism vs. Bolshevism
" And the prominent, if not indeed the principal, part in the system of terrorism applied by the Extraordinary Commissions for Combating Counter-Revolution has been taken by Jews, and in some notable cases by Jewesses."
And, for the larger context .....
abaddon
Penultimate Amazing
Cherry-picking. Read the whole page for a change.
Which does not mention jews at all.
Jeffk 1970
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That's nice but it didn't answer my question, can you provide the ethnic makeup for the NKVD?
I'll be even more specific, what was the ethnic composition of the NKVD in 1940?
You said "Jew led." Which Jews led the NKVD in 1940? I've already established that the head of the NKVD at that time was not a Jew. How many Jews served in the NKVD at the time of the Karyn Massacres? How many Jews participated in some way?
Saggy, I don't care about your quote mines, I want answers. If you can't provide them please retract the assertion you made that the NKVD was "Jew led."
The NKVD from the beginning was a Jewish dominated organization...
December 20 Secret Police
"Cheka, the first incarnation of the Soviet secret police (NKVD), was established on this date in 1917. Many Jews played leading roles in the secret police, and even more fell victim to it. “About 40 percent of high-ranking NKVD officers had Jewish nationality recorded in their identity documents,” writes Yale University professor Timothy Snyder in Bloodlands: Europe Between Hitler and Stalin, “as did more than half of the NKVD generals. . . . The Great Terror could be, and by many would be, blamed on the Jews.”
December 20 Secret Police
"Cheka, the first incarnation of the Soviet secret police (NKVD), was established on this date in 1917. Many Jews played leading roles in the secret police, and even more fell victim to it. “About 40 percent of high-ranking NKVD officers had Jewish nationality recorded in their identity documents,” writes Yale University professor Timothy Snyder in Bloodlands: Europe Between Hitler and Stalin, “as did more than half of the NKVD generals. . . . The Great Terror could be, and by many would be, blamed on the Jews.”
Let us not forget ...
Stalin's Jews
"Stalin's Jews
We mustn't forget that some of greatest murderers of modern times were Jewish"
"Genrikh Yagoda," the greatest Jewish murderer of the 20th Century
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abaddon
Penultimate Amazing
Wow. You cherry picked a cherry picked quote. Soon it will be fractal.
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