General Holocaust denial discussion Part III

[LemmyCaution]

So it looks like Saggy's 'strategy' will be a continual, inept and stumbling Gish Gallop, never properly providing evidence, and not answering questions. So just a dribble of other people's claims that he has no researched?

And refusing to answer direct, polite requests for references and evidence. For example, questions about this post where he claims that a passage on quicklime was in Grossman & Ehrenburg's Black Book but refuses even to acknowledge several requests for page number and edition.

On Liepaja, it is interesting that he had to "research" the very famous footage shot by Wiener. He isn't even aware of the basics of the evidence. And, yes, his research is a fly-over, cherry-picked melange of distracting tangents and so whats.

 

[dudalb]

So it looks like Saggy's 'strategy' will be a continual, inept and stumbling Gish Gallop, never properly providing evidence, and not answering questions. So just a dribble of other people's claims that he has no researched?

Funny,that describes most Holocaust deniers who show up here....

 

[Hans]

Funny,that describes most Holocaust deniers who show up here....

That's true perhaps I should not have singled him out....nah the description fits to well! However as someone with only a limited knowledge of the Holocaust compared to the experts here even I can see the gaping holes in his claims that pretty much raises the ID's him as a 'cut & paste know nothing'.

 

[Saggy]

testimony of the film-maker Wiener (they didn't shoot "vid" in 1941) (also this footage of Wiener testifying; USHMM backgrounder)

According to Weiner the Jews shot had come from a prison.

The interviewer asks... how many Jews were murdered on the day.

Weiner: I saw 3-4 executions.

It's too bad Weiner was not at the Katyn forest where the Jew led NKVD slaughtered 20000 Polish military personnel and the mass grave was excavated to prove it.

 

[LemmyCaution]

According to Weiner the Jews shot had come from a prison.

The interviewer asks... how many Jews were murdered on the day.

Weiner: I saw 3-4 executions.

It's too bad Weiner was not at the Katyn forest where the NKVD slaughtered 20000 Polish military personnel and the mass grave was excavated to prove it.

Sort of, but what does that matter? Jews seized and held in prisons should be executed? By SS and local mobs?

Wiener explains - you left this out - that he went to the shooting site because another soldier had heard that "they're killing the Jews there." And because he'd been hearing about Jews being killed in the town and thought that this would be a good chance for him to check for himself if it were true.

As to the prison, Wiener says "the prison where they were allegedly kept . . . if one existed at all."

Wiener says, "I was under the impression that they were just shot because they were Jews." Not for crimes. Not as communists. Just because they were Jews. Why didn't you mention this detail, Saggy?

I posted about the German policy, which authorities reported about to Berlin, of exterminating Jews in the occupied East, in particular Latvia. This filmed mass murder was, as Wiener said, part of that (he says this more than once and mentions Himmler in this regard). Do you then agree to the discussion in this post which outlined the relevant issues and says that this massacre was one step in the Germans' eliminating Jews in the region? You seem to have nothing to say about the salient points.

 

[Saggy]

Sort of, but what does that matter? Jews seized and held in prisons should be executed? By SS and local mobs?

Wiener explains - you left this out - that he went to the shooting site because another soldier had heard that "they're killing the Jews there." And because he'd been hearing about Jews being killed in the town and thought that this would be a good chance for him to check for himself if it were true.

As to the prison, Wiener says "the prison where they were allegedly kept . . . if one existed at all."

Wiener says, "I was under the impression that they were just shot because they were Jews." Not for crimes. Not as communists. Just because they were Jews. Why didn't you mention this detail, Saggy?

I posted about the German policy, which authorities reported about to Berlin, of exterminating Jews in the occupied East, in particular Latvia. This filmed mass murder was, as Wiener said, part of that (he says this more than once and mentions Himmler in this regard). Do you then agree to the discussion in this post which outlined the relevant issues and says that this massacre was one step in the Germans' eliminating Jews in the region? You seem to have nothing to say about the salient points.

The salient point is you have a video of 3-4 Jewish prisoners, possibly partisans, being executed. That is of no significance. Especially in the context of the mass killings of Latvians by the Jew led NKVD as described in the article 'Latvia 1940 - Year of Horror'. The communists brutalized Poland, Latvia, and Lithuania, and paid a very small price given the magnitude of their crimes.

 

[smartcooky]

So it looks like Saggy's 'strategy' will be a continual, inept and stumbling Gish Gallop, never properly providing evidence, and not answering questions. So just a dribble of other people's claims that he has no researched?

So, par for the denier course then?

 

[smartcooky]

However as someone with only a limited knowledge of the Holocaust compared to the experts here even I can see the gaping holes in his claims that pretty much raises the ID's him as a 'cut & paste know nothing'.

Never underestimate the power of the Internet to lend unwarranted credibility to the colossally misinformed.

 

[LemmyCaution]

The salient point is you have a video of 3-4 Jewish prisoners

Did I say that this was a large group being executed? But you're wrong that this is all I have. Look here again, please, for some of what I have.

possibly partisans

What partisans were operating in or around Liepaja in August 1941? What evidence do you have that the people executed in the video were partisans?

You are still ignoring what Stahlecker's report said about the anti-Jewish goals in his area and this comment Wiener made: " they were just shot because they were Jews." Where did partisans enter into these statements?

Especially in the context of the mass killings of Latvians by the Jew led NKVD as described in the article 'Latvia 1940 - Year of Horror'.

Please read the posts by Jeffk and by Leo Major on this. Then tell us about the structure of the Jewish community in Latvia and the roles Jews played in Latvia in 1939-1941. If you can't or won't, we will assume you are talking hot air.

The communists brutalized Poland, Latvia, and Lithuania, and paid a very small price given the magnitude of their crimes.

Leaving aside a debate on summary executions of communists without trial, this video doesn't show an execution of communists: what it shows is one of "the shootings of Jews," according to Wiener.

Related (pertaining to another area under Stahlecker) are these data on the identities of victims of Einsatzkommando 3 in Lithuania:

Jews: 98.4%
- Jewish men: 39.9%
- Jewish women: 36.4%
- Jewish children: 22.1%*
Communists and others: 1.6% (from Jäger report)

In Belorussia, according to the tabulation done by Hans at Holocaust Controversies, the breakdown of EG-B's murder victims was:

Jews: 88%
Partisans: 1%
Mentally ill: 3%
"Racially inferior": 4%
Others: 4%

Diatribes about communism and/or Jews do not help explain these data. Sorry.

(Quicklime . . . afraid?)

 

[LeoMajor]

The salient point is you have a video of 3-4 Jewish prisoners, possibly partisans, being executed.

Do you even know how to read? The footage was shot in 1941, in Latvia. The Partisan movement did not truly start to take hold in Latvia until 1943-44 and even then not even close to the same degree as it did in Belarus and Russia. There were literally no partisans to speak of at the time of the execution.

Anything else?

That is of no significance. Especially in the context of the mass killings of Latvians by the Jew led NKVD

The NKVD was not led by Jews in 1940 It was never really "Jew-led" at any point but Jewish cadres had been purged in 1937-39. Stop saying "Jew-led NKVD", it gives me the impression that comtemprary statistics have less of an impact on you than your own fantasies.

The communists brutalized Poland, Latvia, and Lithuania, and paid a very small price given the magnitude of their crimes.

First of all, the Nazis were far more brutal in Poland than the Soviets in every way (which says a lot when you consider how bad the Soviets were)

Second of all, what relevance does this utterly unimportant non-sequiter have to the topic at hind?

 

[smartcooky]

It's too bad Weiner was not at the Katyn forest where the Jew led NKVD slaughtered 20000 Polish military personnel and the mass grave was excavated to prove it.

I find it remarkable, and offensive, that you will accept existence of the mass graves of 22,000 Polish military personnel in Katyn Forest as proof of the massacre, yet you dismiss the existence of the mass graves of hundreds of thousands of Jewish civilians at places such as Treblinka, Auschwitz-Birkenau, Sobibor, Belzec, Majdanek and Chelmno, as fake, and so part of some imagined Jewish conspiracy.

You do understand what cognitive dissonance is, don't you??

 

[LemmyCaution]

Btw in Wiener's testimony he speaks of 3-4 "executions" and the interviewer clarifies that (a) the Jews were shot in groups of 10, (b) Wiener saw about 25 Jews shot, and (c) Wiener can't say how many total were shot because he arrived after the shooting had begun. Saggy tried to confuse this issue in his post above.

 

[Saggy]

I find it remarkable, and offensive, that you will accept existence of the mass graves of 22,000 Polish military personnel in Katyn Forest as proof of the massacre, yet you dismiss the existence of the mass graves of hundreds of thousands of Jewish civilians at places such as Treblinka, Auschwitz-Birkenau, Sobibor, Belzec, Majdanek and Chelmno, as fake, and so part of some imagined Jewish conspiracy.

You do understand what cognitive dissonance is, don't you??

Is this a joke?

The mass graves at Katyn were excavated and examined by an international team of forensics experts. You can google it. I'll do it for you ...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katyn_massacre

There are no mass graves at Auschwitz, Sobibor, Belzec, Majdanek, or Chelmo.

What is the point of such an idiotic discussion?

Caroline Sturdy-Colls went looking for mass graves at Treblinka, but was told by the local rabbi (shown in the vid below) that digging could only be done on his approval, which was not forthcoming. No matter, she had no graves to excavate. See the complete idocy of the BBC / USHMM ? Treblinka project exposed ...

The Treblinka Archeology Hoax

Or, try to google info on the Treblinka, Sobibor, etc., mass graves. They are non-existent.

 

[LemmyCaution]

I find it remarkable, and offensive, that you will accept existence of the mass graves of 22,000 Polish military personnel in Katyn Forest as proof of the massacre, yet you dismiss the existence of the mass graves of hundreds of thousands of Jewish civilians at places such as Treblinka, Auschwitz-Birkenau, Sobibor, Belzec, Majdanek and Chelmno, as fake, and so part of some imagined Jewish conspiracy.

You do understand what cognitive dissonance is, don't you??

There were a number of massacres of Jews on the beach at Skede, at Liepaja in Latvia, during 1941. The largest came in December - the July/August shootings memorialized in Wiener's film numbered in the 100s - and was recorded in still photographs.

Discussion of the December mass murder of Jews at Liepaja here.

Mass graves have been found at the beach at Skede, with GPR assistance, and mapped. A general discussion of events in Liepaja during the occupation, by Ezergailis, is here.

Saggy will, if he continues on the path he's now on, cherrypick and distort what's said in the pieces linked to.

 

[LemmyCaution]

Is this a joke?

The mass graves at Katyn were excavated and examined by an international team of forensics experts. You can google it. I'll do it for you ...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katyn_massacre

There are no mass graves at Auschwitz, Sobibor, Belzec, Majdanek, or Chelmo.

What is the point of such an idiotic discussion?

Caroline Sturdy-Colls went looking for mass graves at Treblinka, but was told by the local rabbi (shown in the vid below) that digging could only be done on his approval, which was not forthcoming. No matter, she had no graves to excavate. See the complete idocy of the BBC / USHMM ? Treblinka project exposed ...

The Treblinka Archeology Hoax

[qimg]http://i.imgur.com/RHL74xw.png[/qimg]

Or, try to google info on the Treblinka, Sobibor, etc., mass graves. They are non-existent.

Since you've been told about the findings at the Einsatz Reinhard camps - you ignored this post, for example - and I am bored repeating myself about them, I will post some links about Chełmno that you clearly are not aware of and that others may not be.

Muehlenkamp, "Human remains inside the mass graves at Chełmno, Bełżec and Sobibór"

Museum of the former Extermination Camp in Chełmno-on-Ner, history of the camp and excavations in various locations

Łucja Pawlicka-Nowak, ed, Chełmno Witnesses Speak

Muehlenkamp, "Archaelogical Research at Chelmno"

discussion of Chełmno archaeological work (through to end of thread)

 

[Saggy]

Mass graves have been found at the beach at Skede, with GPR assistance, and mapped. A general discussion of events in Liepaja during the occupation, by Ezergailis, is here.

If I was suspected of being a serial killer who buried his victims in my back yard, do you think my back yard would be 'mapped'? Just complete idiocy. It would be dug up.

Let's take a real example, in the 1830s Irish workers were brought to Pa to work on railroads, and 57 of them suffered a mysterious fate. The official records were locked in a vault.

In 2004 a group at Immaculata College in Pa. decided they wanted to investigate the fate of the Irish railroad workers.

They located the mass grave. Do you think the mapped it? No, they excavated it, and determined that the men had been killed.

You can read about it here ...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duffy%27s_Cut

There are have been to my knowledge no mass graves of holohoax victims that have actually be excavated, and effort made to ID victims, not one. The reason is simple, there are no real victims of a hoax.

There are real mass graves of NKVD victims, at Katyn, Vinnitsia, and elsewhere. The graves have been excavated and efforts made to ID the thousands of victims.

EDIT

Muehlenkamp, "Human remains inside the mass graves at Chełmno, Bełżec and Sobibór"

Muehlenkamp's life is promoting the hoax, thus he is not reliable, I wouldn't trust Netanyahu on the matter either. Give me a wiki, or even USHMM or Yad Vashem, link on the non-existent mass graves at Chełmno, Bełżec and Sobibór

 

[LemmyCaution]

If I was suspected of being a serial killer who buried his victims in my back yard, do you think my back yard would be 'mapped'? Just complete idiocy. It would be dug up.

First you object that no mass graves were found in various places.

You're proven wrong.

So now you object that the mass graves were found - but not in the way you prefer!

Astonishing.

Is GPR then not a legitimate tool? The investigation at Liepaja was not to charge and convict criminals but to show where the victims were interred.

There are have been to my knowledge no mass graves of holohoax victims that have actually be excavated, and effort made to ID victims, not one. The reason is simple, there are no real victims of a hoax.

You need to meet Fr Desbois, among others.

Muehlenkamp, "Human remains inside the mass graves at Chełmno, Bełżec and Sobibór"

Muehlenkamp's life is defending the hoax, thus he is not reliable, I wouldn't trust Netanyahu on the matter either. Give me a wiki, or even USHMM or Yad Vashem, link on the non-existent mass graves at Chełmno, Bełżec and Sobibór

Another ad hominem attack you make, about someone who doesn't post here and cannot defend himself. Cowardly. But it's all you have because you cannot answer what Muehlenkamp has written - or the Chełmno museum and its investigators, whose links I posted and on whose work Muehlenkamp relies.

Saggy, really, post something useful and interesting.

 

[Saggy]

Saggy, really, post something useful and interesting.

Good idea. Stay tuned.

 

[LemmyCaution]

Good idea. Stay tuned.

You will have to surprise me.

While you're at it, are you afraid to answer my request for a reference on your purported quotation about quicklime, er, I mean, will you finally tell us why you tried misleading readers of this forum about this?

 

[Axxman300]

Let's take a real example, in the 1830s Irish workers were brought to Pa to work on railroads, and 57 of them suffered a mysterious fate. The official records were locked in a vault.

In 2004 a group at Immaculata College in Pa. decided they wanted to investigate the fate of the Irish railroad workers.

Not so fast.

You're asking us to believe that an excavation by a Catholic College, a team lead by three Catholic Priests, mysteriously finds 6 bodies of Irish Catholics whom they allege were murdered by local protestants. Plus, they were unable to excavate further because - allegedly - Amtrak wouldn't give them permission, so we just have to take everybody's word that the other 151 bodies are there - without independent proof.

Do you see the problem? Do you see the flaw in your logic yet?