General Holocaust denial discussion Part III

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Nessie said:
Denialists show how corrupt they are by demanding excessive levels of evidence to prove mass murder, but accepting very little inconclusive evidence as proof of mass survival. They also rely on the fallacy of; if not A, therefore B.
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There is a quote (I can't remember who its by or exactly how it goes) but it applies perfectly to Holocaust Deniers like Saggy....

"We accept without evidence that which we are inclined to believe, yet demand rigorous proof for that which we do not"
 
smartcooky said:
There is a quote (I can't remember who its by or exactly how it goes) but it applies perfectly to Holocaust Deniers like Saggy....

"We accept without evidence that which we are inclined to believe, yet demand rigorous proof for that which we do not"
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Unfortunately it also applies to all the rest of us. Just more to some.
 
Argumemnon said:
(note: I'm being facetious, and I can't even view the videos from here.)
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And one of them (Liepaja) was a 1940s "selfie" of Nazis doing the deed! (Their obsession with "if it's not online, it didn't happen," which you rightfully target, is stunningly weird . . . sadly for them, however, more and more archival materials are being digitized and made accessible.)
 
Saggy, as you've seemingly given up on the questions from Nessie and others about the Jews from the Netherlands, I hope you're hard at work coming up with an answer to this: it shouldn't be hard, you quoted from Grossman & Ehrenburg's Black Book and no doubt have the passage marked. Thanks, again, for your reply. - LC
 
LemmyCaution said:
And one of them (Liepaja) was a 1940s "selfie" of Nazis doing the deed! (Their obsession with "if it's not online, it didn't happen," which you rightfully target, is stunningly weird . . . sadly for them, however, more and more archival materials are being digitized and made accessible.)
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(Had to do a little research on this one, but, it's been a slow day :) )

Oddly enough, the people in Latvia continue to honor the Nazis who freed them from the Jewish communists,

Latvia Still Honors the Biggest Jew-Killing Machine in World History

Here's what they said in 1941 ...

"On July 2, 1941, the first number of the bilingual newspaper Kurzemes Vāds (The Word of Kurzeme) could proclaim, speaking of Liepāja:

“Our native city has been freed from the yoke of the Jews and the Bolsheviks. We thank therefore our führer Adolf Hitler. His fight is our fight.”

Here is why the Communists/Jews were hated in Latvia
Latvia Year Of Horror

As soon as the Germans liberated Latvia they formed Latvian auxiliary police units that were ready to revenge the Latvians ...

Latvian Auxiliary Police

"Owing to the initiative of the EK (Einsatzkommando), the auxiliary police force consisted of 240 men and had been strictly organized. New men were currently being enlisted. They helped the EK as auxiliary police and were on duty in the 6 police districts established so far. Some members had been assigned to Kriminalpolizei and Sicherheitspolizei work. By July 7 the Latvians arrested 1125 Jews, 32 political prisoners, 85 Russian workers, and 2 women criminals, the greater part during the last days. This is due to the EK backing the Latvians. Actions against the Jews were going on in an ever-increasing number. Conforming to a suggestion of the EK, the Jews were being evacuated by the auxiliary police force from all houses still standing. The apartments were being allocated to non-Jewish inhabitants. The food supply was inadequate as nearly all stocks were destroyed by fire. The arrested Jewish men were shot without ceremony and interred in previously prepared mass graves. 400 Jews were killed during pogroms in Riga, since the arrival of EK 2; 300 by the Latvian auxiliary police. By 1944, the occupation power, with the collaboration of the Self-Administration, had formed a total of 33 auxiliary police battalions

Thus, there apparently were some local 'mass' killings of Jews in Latvia and Lithuania, motivated by locals to revenge the predations of the Jewish communists who supported the Soviet occupation.

So, the relevant questions are what is the provenance of the vid allegedly of Liepaja above, and where are the mass graves, and what has been determined about the identity of the victims?
 
Saggy said:
Oddly enough, the people in Latvia continue to honor the Nazis who freed them from the Jewish communists,
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The NKVD in 1940 was less than 2% Jewish and the top echelons of the CPSU were at most 7% Jewish. Hardly "Jewish Communists".



"On July 2, 1941, the first number of the bilingual newspaper Kurzemes Vāds (The Word of Kurzeme) could proclaim, speaking of Liepāja:

“Our native city has been freed from the yoke of the Jews and the Bolsheviks. We thank therefore our führer Adolf Hitler. His fight is our fight.”
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And THAT, in a nutshell, is why Latvians specifically and Balts in general are firmly ensconed on the wrong side of history. Thank you for pointing that out for us!



As soon as the Germans liberated Latvia they formed Latvian auxiliary police units that were ready to revenge the Latvians ...

Latvian Auxiliary Police
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These units were involved in wholesale massacres of Jewish civilians, most of whom were middle class petty bourgeois that had no truck with communism. I literally cannot figure out what you're trying to do here.

Thus, there apparently were some local 'mass' killings of Jews in Latvia and Lithuania, motivated by locals to revenge the predations of the Jewish communists who supported the Soviet occupation.
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No, the driving force behind the massacres after the initial phase of the occupation were for the most part the Einsatzgruppen, who received the assistance of local collaborators like the Arjas Kommandos. See the EG reports and the Jagr Report for proof of this.
 
Saggy said:
(Had to do a little research on this one, but, it's been a slow day :) )

Oddly enough, the people in Latvia continue to honor the Nazis who freed them from the Jewish communists,

Latvia Still Honors the Biggest Jew-Killing Machine in World History

Here's what they said in 1941 ...

"On July 2, 1941, the first number of the bilingual newspaper Kurzemes Vāds (The Word of Kurzeme) could proclaim, speaking of Liepāja:

“Our native city has been freed from the yoke of the Jews and the Bolsheviks. We thank therefore our führer Adolf Hitler. His fight is our fight.”

Here is why the Communists/Jews were hated in Latvia
Latvia Year Of Horror

As soon as the Germans liberated Latvia they formed Latvian auxiliary police units that were ready to revenge the Latvians ...

Latvian Auxiliary Police

"Owing to the initiative of the EK (Einsatzkommando), the auxiliary police force consisted of 240 men and had been strictly organized. New men were currently being enlisted. They helped the EK as auxiliary police and were on duty in the 6 police districts established so far. Some members had been assigned to Kriminalpolizei and Sicherheitspolizei work. By July 7 the Latvians arrested 1125 Jews, 32 political prisoners, 85 Russian workers, and 2 women criminals, the greater part during the last days. This is due to the EK backing the Latvians. Actions against the Jews were going on in an ever-increasing number. Conforming to a suggestion of the EK, the Jews were being evacuated by the auxiliary police force from all houses still standing. The apartments were being allocated to non-Jewish inhabitants. The food supply was inadequate as nearly all stocks were destroyed by fire. The arrested Jewish men were shot without ceremony and interred in previously prepared mass graves. 400 Jews were killed during pogroms in Riga, since the arrival of EK 2; 300 by the Latvian auxiliary police. By 1944, the occupation power, with the collaboration of the Self-Administration, had formed a total of 33 auxiliary police battalions

Thus, there apparently were some local 'mass' killings of Jews in Latvia and Lithuania, motivated by locals to revenge the predations of the Jewish communists who supported the Soviet occupation.

So, the relevant questions are what is the provenance of the vid allegedly of Liepaja above, and where are the mass graves, and what has been determined about the identity of the victims?
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First, "Jews" and "Communists" are not synonyms, much as you try making them to be.

Second, no, these were not local revenge massacres. The source you cite (Wikipedia!) says that the local auxiliary units were organized, enlisted, and guided by the German EK, on which initiative the units were formed.

Third, in this vein, EM 24 (report of the Einsatzgruppe) stated about German actions in Latvia that
Conforming to a suggestion of the EK, the Jews are being evacuated by the auxiliary police force from all houses still standing. The apartments are being allocated to non-Jewish inhabitants. The Jewish families are being driven out of town by the Latvians; most of the men have been arrested. . . . The arrested Jewish men are shot without ceremony and interred in previously prepared graves.
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Fourth, in spring 1941 Rosenberg gave early guidelines on propaganda for the invasion of Soviet Union calling for German press organs to emphasize that USSR is under "a group of Jewish criminal despots" and that local actions ("free rein") against Jews will be necessary to solving Jewish question in east; "the German army comes as a liberator from Bolshevism and from Jewry” by means of "large-scale Jewish pogroms and murders of Communist functionaries." A report of Einsatzgruppen A, operating in this region, spelled this out:
Similarly, native anti-Semitic forces were induced to start pograms against Jews during the first hours after capture, though this inducement proved to be very difficult. Following out orders, the Security Police was determined to solve the Jewish question with all possible means and most decisively. But it was desirable that the Security Police should not put in an immediate appearance, at least in the beginning, since the extraordinarily harsh measures were apt to stir even German circles. It had to be shown to the world that the native population itself took the first action by way of natural reaction against the suppression by Jews during several decades and against the terror exercised by the Communists during the preceding period.
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Such pogroms were ordered specifically by Heydrich.

Fifth, Generalmajor F Kittel was taped in British custody describing mass executions of Jews by German police and Latvian auxiliaries near Daugavpils, Latvia, in summer 1941 - including his efforts to make the murders less public and more orderly:
"The things I've experienced! In Latvia, near Dvinsk [Daugavpils/Dünaburg], there were mass executions of Jews carried out by the SS.

"There were about 15 SS men and perhaps 60 Latvians, known to be the most brutal people in the world. I was lying in bed one Sunday morning when I kept hearing two salvos followed by small-arms fire."

On investigating, Kittel found "men, women and children - they were counted off and stripped naked. The executioners first laid all the clothes in one pile. Then 20 women had to take up their position - naked - on the edge of the trench. They were shot and fell down into it."

"How was it done?" asked Felbert.

"They faced the trench," Kittel replied. "And then 20 Latvians came up behind and simply fired once through the back of their heads, and they fell down forwards into the trench like ninepins."

Kittel gave an order forbidding such executions from taking place "outside, where people can look on. If you shoot people in the wood or somewhere where no one can see," he told the SS men, "that's your own affair. But I absolutely forbid another day's shooting here. We draw our drinking water from deep springs; we're getting nothing but corpse water there."

"What did they do to the children?" asked Felbert. Kittel - who sounded "very excited" at this point, according to the transcriber - answered: "They seized three-year-old children by the hair, held them up and shot them with a pistol and then threw them in. I saw that for myself. One could watch it."

Another general, General-leutnant Hans Schaeffer, commander of the 244 Infantry division, asked Kittel: "Did they weep? Have the people any idea what's in store for them?"

"They know perfectly well," replied Kittel. "They are apathetic. I'm not sensitive myself, but such things turn my stomach."

Later on, however, Kittel mused: "If one were to destroy all the Jews of the world simultaneously, there wouldn't remain a single accuser," and "Those Jews are the pest of the east!"
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Sixth, as to Liepaja Reinhard Wiener, the German naval officer who shot this film, testified that the victims were forced by "the SS and the Latvian 'Heimwehr'" into the pit. He reiterated, "the SS was also there . . . the supervising detail was made up of SS. You can see that on the film." Wiener describes the action as one of "the shootings of Jews." His testimony disagrees in most particulars with your ignorant gloss.

Last, the Stahlecker report explained to Berlin authorities that as of December 1941 the German units, with assistance from local helpers, had executed all Latvian Jews except about 3750 kept alive in 3 ghettos "as they are specialized workers necessary for maintaining the country's economy." Stahlecker also explained that these murders were part of the Reich's policy to destroy Jews in his region:
The systematic mopping up of the Eastern Territories embraced, in accordance with the basic orders, the complete removal if possible, of Jewry. This goal has been substantially attained-with the exception of White Russia-as a result of the execution up to the present time of 229,052 Jews (see Appendix). The remainder still left in the Baltic Provinces is urgently required as labour and housed in Ghettos.
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Not even a nice try Saggy.

Please now detail for us what the Jews shown executed in this film did to advance communism or commit other heinous crimes deserving of a death sentence and tell us what were the predations of these individuals against "Latvians."
 
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Saggy said:
Had to do a little research on this one
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Must've hurt.

Thus, there apparently were some local 'mass' killings of Jews in Latvia and Lithuania, motivated by locals to revenge the predations of the Jewish communists who supported the Soviet occupation.
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Well, no holocaust denial would be complete with at least a pinch of anti-semitism.
 
LemmyCaution said:
Please now detail for us what the Jews shown executed in this film did to advance communism or commit other heinous crimes deserving of a death sentence and tell us what were the predations of these individuals against "Latvians."
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The hatred of the Latvians for the Jewish communists is described in great detail in the link below ....


Latvia: Year of Horror, 1940

Video of Latvians cheering the Nazis in Riga ....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f26Ac3-tClQ
 
Saggy said:
The hatred of the Latvians for the Jewish communists is described in great detail in the link below ....


Latvia: Year of Horror, 1940

Video of Latvians cheering the Nazis in Riga ....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f26Ac3-tClQ
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Hatred for Jews on the part of Latvian anti-Semites is not proof of wrongdoing on the part of any Latvian Jews.

You failed to reply to what I asked. You were asked - I will repeat myself - "Please now detail for us what the Jews shown executed in this film did to advance communism or commit other heinous crimes deserving of a death sentence and tell us what were the predations of these individuals against 'Latvians.'" I asked about the individuals being executed - you answered generally about the feelings of some groups of Latvians. Ridiculous attempt at evasion.

Btw, we both know why you're ignoring my requests for a reference to Grossman & Ehrenburg for the quicklime passage: there isn't one. Your post was misleading, you are well aware of this, thus silent.
 
Saggy said:
The hatred of the Latvians for the Jewish communists is described in great detail in the link below ....


Latvia: Year of Horror, 1940

Video of Latvians cheering the Nazis in Riga ....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f26Ac3-tClQ
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Every nation had its collaborators, e.g., in the Sudetenland, there was the Sudetendeutsches Freikorps, in Holland there was the Nationaal-Socialistische Beweging in Nederland and France had Vichy. Even Great Britain had the British Union of Fascists led by Oswald Mosely. I have no doubt that they would have helped to root out and round up Jews for execution had the Nazis successfully invaded the British Isles.

So, the fact that some Latvians collaborated with the Nazis in the genocide against the Jews is not unusual, not news, and not evidence of your alleged holohoax, for which, you have not provided a single shred of evidence... no documents showing its planning and execution, no deathbed confessions of holohoax perpetrators who might have had second thoughts. Most importantly, such a hoax could not have been perpetrated without the full co-operation from...
► The people who wrote the over 50 million German documents (most of which were released to the public in 2006),
► The "fact checkers" who would have to make sure that these documents all agree with each other and that there were no conflicts between them.
► The thousands of people who saw Jewish families rounded up, and those who secretly sheltered Jewish families at great personal risk.
► The workers on the German railways who helped transport the Jews to the camps
► Important German citizens such a Oskar Schindler and Albert Goering (Herman's Brother) who used their connections to help smuggle Jews out of Germany when they saw what was happening.

This would have taken the cooperation of many hundreds of thousands of people. Who were they, and why have none of them ever even hinted at what they did in over 70 years?
 
Saggy said:
(Had to do a little research on this one, but, it's been a slow day :) )

......
So, the relevant questions are what is the provenance of the vid allegedly of Liepaja above, and where are the mass graves, and what has been determined about the identity of the victims?
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You are very selective about what you research. Your refusal to do any research to prove mass survival of those sent to the AR camps, starting with the Dutch Jews sent to Sobibor means I have won this debate with you.

You should accept you have lost and accept the Holocaust did include mass murder by gassing.
 
Saggy said:
The hatred of the Latvians for the Jewish communists is described in great detail in the link below ....


Latvia: Year of Horror, 1940

Video of Latvians cheering the Nazis in Riga ....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f26Ac3-tClQ
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So, the Soviet Union occupied Latvia in June of 1940 (BTW, ol' Uncle Adolf made this possible by placing Latvia squarely under the USSR's influence per the secret protocols buried in the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact signed on August 23rd, 1939. I bet those Latvians would have been less enthusiastic if they knew how easily their best buddy Adolf sold them out. BTW, Saggy, if you need to know what the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact and the secret protocols were let me know). The Soviets announced a new government would be formed. Out of the government then formed, what percentage of that government were Jews? Also, can you tel us what percentage of the Jews in Latvia joined or were members of the Communist Party?
 
Saggy said:
The hatred of the Latvians for the Jewish communists is described in great detail in the link below ....
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As stated before, the NKVD in 1940 at very few Jewish members if any. If you want to discuss the Soviet occupation of Lativia, perhaps you would be surprised to hear that the Soviets arrested and deported numerous Jewish politicians. The entire leadership of Betar, a right-wing Zionist group, was deported, as were numerous members of the General Bund. Several prominant Latvian Rabbis were also imprisoned.

Latvian Jews made up 4.8% of the total population but made up 12.5% of those deported by the Soviets to Siberia.

Latvian Jews suffered disproportionately from Communism and the latvians were much too stupid to realize it.
 
So it looks like Saggy's 'strategy' will be a continual, inept and stumbling Gish Gallop, never properly providing evidence, and not answering questions. So just a dribble of other people's claims that he has no researched?
 
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