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Trump - No transgender individuals in the military

A significant number of women served as combat pilots in the Soviet Air Force 1941-45. Others fought as snipers and some even in tank crews.

Plenty of LGBT people served in the Bolshevik/Soviet revolutionary forces. They ended up winning, so I don't think efficiency is a problem.

Which reminds me of another alternative for trans people who really do want to do the shooting people thing: go shoot ISIS, I'm sure these people will be glad to get more volunteers.
 
I'm pretty surprised about tank crews. I was aware of the fighter pilots and an occasional sniper. I've never been in a tank, but my understanding is that they aren't easy to drive and the people not driving are loading ammo.

Even snipers would be pretty rare. The ability to run away quickly is a real enhancement to survivability, but of course, the fighting was so desperate that maybe that wasn't a top priority.

So I decided to say "electronics" to emphasize that even the crude machines of the pre-electronic era required a fair bit of physical ability to operate, such that most women would not be the best choice. I wasn't even sure about airplanes, but apparently the WWII airplanes didn't require peak strength.

The point is that in the days when combat included a fair likelihood of hand to hand combat, which was certainly true at least until the beginning of the 20th century, it is laughable to suggest that women should have been soldiers. In the 20th century, a few positions opened up where women could have been a good choice. Today, there are more, so we should look to where women can be employed. However, the reason we ought to be doing it must not be "fairness" or "equality" or "equal opportunity". Will the military be able to do the job better by employing women, or transgenders, in those roles? That's the only question worth asking. Everything else is a distraction.
Strange in the UK women couldn't fly planes into battle, but they were constantly flying them around the country to "deliver" the planes where needed. Listened to a woman who was one of these pilots and she was saying that usually they weren't given any training in flying a particular type of plane just given the airfield they had to fly to!
 
In WW2 (from Wikipedia)

Several hundred thousand women served in combat roles, especially in anti-aircraft units.

Several. Hundred. Thousand.

Probably more tellingly....

The U.S. decided not to use women in combat because public opinion would not tolerate it.

Not because they couldn't do it. Not because they were incapable. Because of opinion.

Sent from my Nexus 9 using Tapatalk
 
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The point is that in the days when combat included a fair likelihood of hand to hand combat, which was certainly true at least until the beginning of the 20th century, it is laughable to suggest that women should have been soldiers.


How much overlap do you think there is between the abilities of the most capable women ... who you deem "laughable" to suggest they were able enough to be soldiers, and the least able men deemed able enough to serve ...for whom it is presumably not so "laughable"?

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Will the military be able to do the job better by employing women, or transgenders, in those roles? That's the only question worth asking. Everything else is a distraction.


Why does it have to be "better"? Why wouldn't 'as well as' be an acceptable standard?
 
Strange in the UK women couldn't fly planes into battle, but they were constantly flying them around the country to "deliver" the planes where needed. Listened to a woman who was one of these pilots and she was saying that usually they weren't given any training in flying a particular type of plane just given the airfield they had to fly to!


Not just the U.K.

Even the U.S., when it found that it needed them, suddenly discovered that women were competent to operate military aircraft.

Not as actual members of the military of course, because that would be laughable.

But as WASPs somehow over a thousand women were found to be able enough to operate every sort of military aircraft in our repertoire for a total of over 60 million miles flown.
 
A significant number of women served as combat pilots in the Soviet Air Force 1941-45. Others fought as snipers and some even in tank crews.

The electronics at their disposal were at that time pretty rudimentary. But the need to fill gaps in the depleted ranks of the Soviet armed forces was overwhelming.

Then there are the WWI Russian women's combat battalions.

http://historybuff.com/wwi-russia-and-the-first-womens-battalion-of-death-kbxeD8z4d6OL

But those are tough russian women not wimpy american women.
 
How much overlap do you think there is between the abilities of the most capable women ... who you deem "laughable" to suggest they were able enough to be soldiers, and the least able men deemed able enough to serve ...for whom it is presumably not so "laughable"?




Why does it have to be "better"? Why wouldn't 'as well as' be an acceptable standard?
Or why does it even have to be "as well". Currently the USA military is not run purely on a matter of efficency and effectiveness.
 
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How much overlap do you think there is between the abilities of the most capable women ... who you deem "laughable" to suggest they were able enough to be soldiers, and the least able men deemed able enough to serve ...for whom it is presumably not so "laughable"?

Darned near zero.

Even back in the days when hand to hand combat was normal, there were, of course, some men who did serve in the military, near the bottom of the physical ability scale, who were no better than some of the more capable women. Do you know what happened to those men? They died.
 
Darned near zero.

Even back in the days when hand to hand combat was normal, there were, of course, some men who did serve in the military, near the bottom of the physical ability scale, who were no better than some of the more capable women. Do you know what happened to those men? They died.

Evidence ?

I guess the first question is what you mean by "near the bottom of the physical ability scale". If you're just talking about raw strength or endurance then that doesn't take into account skill. I may be stronger than an experienced and skilled swordswoman but that doesn't mean that in combat I wouldn't easily get skewered by her in pretty short order.

I also think that there's much more of an overlap between the two sexes than you're suggesting. I (sort of) compete in foot races and finish about half way up (or down) the male competitors. There are plenty of female competitors who beat me hollow. The very best females may very well be better than all but the most elite men in most tests.

Finally, there's the concept of roles in the military. In order to make the inclusion of women or transgender individuals as tricky as possible, it seems that the trend seems to be to assume the least suitable roles would be performed by each person - I don't think that's necessarily a good idea.
 
Darned near zero.

Even back in the days when hand to hand combat was normal, there were, of course, some men who did serve in the military, near the bottom of the physical ability scale, who were no better than some of the more capable women. Do you know what happened to those men? They died.

I'm going to ask this question in all seriousness - "Are you aware of how much time a soldier actually spends fighting?"
 
I'm going to ask this question in all seriousness - "Are you aware of how much time a soldier actually spends fighting?"

Almost none.

But the good ones spend a little bit more time than the not quite as good ones.




Seriously, I suspect that in pre-modern warfare a soldier might go an entire campaign, and the amount of time he actually spends within arms reach of the enemy would be less than a minute. If that person happened to be not very strong, the amount of that minute that was spent breathing would be about half of that.
 
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Almost none.

But the good ones spend a little bit more time than the not quite as good ones.

You've read the report I cited earlier that noted no degradation in readiness or effectiveness from the introduction of transgender members haven't you?
 
Even back in the days when hand to hand combat was normal, there were, of course, some men who did serve in the military, near the bottom of the physical ability scale, who were no better than some of the more capable women.
Base on what I read about Audie Murphy (in his book) he was one of those near the bottom of the scale in physical ability. In fact he was considered too puny to enlist at first. His superiors also tried to make him a cook and keep him off the line.

Do you know what happened to those men? They died.
He died, in a plane crash in 1971. Prior to that perofmed satisfactory as a soldier.

Ranb
 
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.

Not because they couldn't do it. Not because they were incapable. Because of opinion.

Group of burly women to general: Put us in Coach! We'll fight too!

General: No, we'd rather lose. Get back in the kitchen and practice your German.
 
Base on what I read about Audie Murphy (in his book) he was one of those near the bottom of the scale in physical ability. In fact he was considered too puny to enlist at first. His superiors also tried to make him a cook and keep him off the line.

Of course he was tiny and looked like a 12 year old boy. Totally unusable in a military. You need big manly men to do a good job.
 

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