Transgender man gives birth

[Lithrael]

But, Arg, I don't think anyone here is demanding that you think of that person as the gender they want you to refer to them as, just that you use the forms of address they request. (They'd like you to, but I'd like a pony.)

The issue of what gender they 'really' are can be argued as much as you like as long as it's not in front of them or by name, IMO.

I asked you a direct question after reading the whole thread and not being certain what lines you were drawing on which bit of the sand and you did not answer it.

 

[Brainster]

Are you making the argument that if we accept that trans-women want to be called 'she', it's a slippery slope to accepting pedophilia?

Yes, you are making that argument. Aren't you ashamed?

Well, here's the thing. The person whom I was responding to had pointed out that his grandfather was a racist. His mother grew up not being racist, but she was homophobic. They each had these blind spots. So the question is pretty obvious: what is his blind spot? What is his irrational prejudice that his grandkids will cluck disapprovingly about years from now?

Adult babies? People who have sex with animals? Plural marriage? I mean it's not as if the next generation of liberals is going to stop discovering new victims of society that they can adopt as a pet cause, thereby proving themselves more tolerant than their benighted ancestors.

 

[Belz...]

You just refuse to properly gender them.

"Properly" and "the way they want" aren't the same thing.

 

[Belz...]

But, Arg, I don't think anyone here is demanding that you think of that person as the gender they want you to refer to them as, just that you use the forms of address they request.

Which brings me back to an earlier question: how far does that principle go?

 

[bruto]

Well, if someone who's white as snow pretends to be black, and I tell them that they're speaking nonsense, am I being rude? Should I shut up and cater to that belief/claim? How about people who say they're polar bears?

At what point do we start valuing objective reality over belief?

I would suppose that it might depend on circumstances, some of which you may not know to look at a person. This country's history abounds shamefully with examples of people whose supposed race does not match their appearance, whose ability to vote, to join organizations, to live where they wish, even to live, is based on assumptions about race.

I really do not think it is reasonable to suggest that claiming race is the same as claiming you're a polar bear. Do you really? Are you saying you're confident enough in your perception of appearance to accuse a stranger of lying?

 

[Belz...]

I would suppose that it might depend on circumstances, some of which you may not know to look at a person. This country's history abounds shamefully with examples of people whose supposed race does not match their appearance, whose ability to vote, to join organizations, to live where they wish, even to live, is based on assumptions about race.

That's unfortunately true.

I really do not think it is reasonable to suggest that claiming race is the same as claiming you're a polar bear. Do you really?

Here's the problem: if the entire set of criteria is the claim, then yes, it's the same thing. If the claim is not the whole story, then I'd like someone to tell me what the criteria are. So far, the claim is the only one that has been mentioned. DNA and genitalia and secondary sexual characteristics are out, apparently.

Are you saying you're confident enough in your perception of appearance to accuse a stranger of lying?

Who says they're lying? I sure didn't imply that.

 

[johnny karate]

Well, here's the thing. The person whom I was responding to had pointed out that his grandfather was a racist. His mother grew up not being racist, but she was homophobic. They each had these blind spots. So the question is pretty obvious: what is his blind spot? What is his irrational prejudice that his grandkids will cluck disapprovingly about years from now?

Adult babies? People who have sex with animals? Plural marriage? I mean it's not as if the next generation of liberals is going to stop discovering new victims of society that they can adopt as a pet cause, thereby proving themselves more tolerant than their benighted ancestors.

Usually these "victims of society" aren't groups identified as causing harm to other groups. You know, like pedophiles.

Is that a distinction you seriously don't grasp?

 

[Belz...]

Usually these "victims of society" aren't groups identified as causing harm to other groups. You know, like pedophiles.

Careful now. There are quite a few less scrupulous people who would use the higher crime rate in the black population of the US as a sign that they are more dangerous to other groups as a response to your point here. Not that you don't actually have a point, that is.

 

[Lithrael]

Which brings me back to an earlier question: how far does that principle go?

Well it's an Overton window kind of thing isn't it? Asking for a form of address that only ambiguously matches is generally reasonable because mostly people decided it was better than not. Asking for one that doesn't seem to match like with this pregnant bloke gets some blowback and the window has to stretch to fit him but it does. Actual five headed dragon McGee is well outside and we don't have to feel rude not calling him dragon McGee. There's some biological/psychological window dressing but it's 90% social consensus. By that I mean, The facts are there but they're not very relevant to what the social consensus ends up being.

 

[johnny karate]

Come on now, Johnny. I don't live in NYC but I can still disagree with aspects of the law.

Yes, you most certainly can.

Fair enough, then. I still don't know how that's bigoted or dehumanising.

And I still don't know why it's necessary to push the envelope. Why not just err on the side of caution?

Pretend, yes, since I should shut up about it and not challenge it. At least you're not asking me to believe it.

When I choose not to curse around my friend who's offended by cursing, I'm not pretending to believe cursing is offensive. I'm merely respecting her very simple request. So I guess I'm just not seeing it the same way.

 

[Belz...]

And I still don't know why it's necessary to push the envelope. Why not just err on the side of caution?

The issue is that a whole set of things were described by various posters in various threads to be dehumanising, and some of them amount to little more than a disagreement. So making sure that there's an issue of dehumanisation there would seem like an important step before we decide what's cautious or not.

When I choose not to curse around my friend who's offended by cursing, I'm not pretending to believe cursing is offensive. I'm merely respecting her very simple request. So I guess I'm just not seeing it the same way.

I guess so.

 

[Brainster]

Usually these "victims of society" aren't groups identified as causing harm to other groups. You know, like pedophiles.

Is that a distinction you seriously don't grasp?

You could make an argument that the harm caused is not so much by the sex as it is by society's reaction to it. We all know there are cases where underage kids fall in love with adults, where the sex is entirely consensual, except for this silly social construct of childhood being complete asexual.

Let's try a different one. How do you fell about adult incest? Why are you so intolerant?

 

[johnny karate]

The issue is that a whole set of things were described by various posters in various threads to be dehumanising, and some of them amount to little more than a disagreement. So making sure that there's an issue of dehumanisation there would seem like an important step before we decide what's cautious or not.

Okay, I'm willing to concede that "dehumanizing" is too strong a word.

Can we settle on rude and disrespectful?

 

[johnny karate]

You could make an argument that the harm caused is not so much by the sex as it is by society's reaction to it.

You could. It would be laughably terrible. But yeah, you could make it.

We all know there are cases where underage kids fall in love with adults, where the sex is entirely consensual, except for this silly social construct of childhood being complete asexual.

And the inability of children to give informed consent, the significant imbalance in the power dynamic between and an adult and a child… etc.

All such silly things.

Let's try a different one. How do you fell about adult incest?

Personally, I think…

Why are you so intolerant?

Oh… I guess you weren’t actually interested in hearing my answer.

 

[Belz...]

Okay, I'm willing to concede that "dehumanizing" is too strong a word.

Can we settle on rude and disrespectful?

Yes, that sounds reasonable.

 

[sylvan8798]

HA! How amusing. I say that I support trans people in their quest to become the gender of their choice, that I oppose discrimination against them based on their condition, and then you come in and pretend like I said the exact opposite, repeatedly and even after I show to the world that you're the dishonest party in the discussion, and now _I_ have to be responsible for the "actions" you made up for me?

Pretend, yes, since I should shut up about it and not challenge it. At least you're not asking me to believe it.

And how would refusing to use pronouns that match the gender of their choice be supportive?

 

[sylvan8798]

You're right of course. That's why nothing was ever gained by challenging the deeply-held belief that the earth was the center of the universe, or that mental illness was due to demonic possession. No, of course telling people that their beliefs are wrong has only brought us pain and misery.

I'm not seeing these as particularly good analogies. Telling transwoman student that her "belief" is wrong is advancing anything how?

 

[sphenisc]

You could make an argument that the harm caused is not so much by the sex as it is by society's reaction to it. We all know there are cases where underage kids fall in love with adults, where the sex is entirely consensual, except for this silly social construct of childhood being complete asexual.

I thought it was a pretty good example of the prejudice that grandkids may come to disapprove of. The careless use of language that fails to distinguish between paedophiles and child molesters.

 

[ponderingturtle]

"Properly" and "the way they want" aren't the same thing.

Yep and I need to have a detailed medical report to gender them. It is the only way to be sure. So we need to first end this silly idea of medical privacy.

 

[Ziggurat]

But, Arg, I don't think anyone here is demanding that you think of that person as the gender they want you to refer to them as, just that you use the forms of address they request. (They'd like you to, but I'd like a pony.)

Oh, but some people here actually are. Tyr, for example, claimed that a man who decided he wants to be a woman actually becomes a woman.