General Holocaust denial discussion Part III

[zooterkin]

Do you believe that saying "hoax" repeatedly will make it more true? Is that like Beetlejuice?

You might almost suspect he was following the advice of the chap who said (paraphrased) "Make the lie big, make it simple, keep saying it, and eventually they will believe it."

 

[Saggy]

Let's just say, for the sake of argument, that you are right. Krema I was never a gas chamber.
Now, what do you do about Bunker I & II

That's not how it works. Krema I was never a gas chamber and the claim that it was is absurd. Constructing a hoax gas chamber after the war and presenting it as found is a preposterous and degenerate lie. Now, supposing for the sake of argument that I'm right, then we have a conclusion, and that is that the promoters of the holohoax are pathological liars the likes of which the world has never seen.

And who was and still is lying about Krema I? The entire holohoax esablishment, not some obscure curator at Auschwitz. Their preposterous lies indict USHMM, Yad Vashem, every Jewish eyewitness, and moreover every academic who has published on the subject, and every academic who has read the idiotic publications, or has seen the idiotic movies, and said nothing.

Once you realize that the promoters of the holohoax are pathological liars then everything they say is completely worthless. Everything can be assumed to be a lie.

Thus, when it comes to the holohoax, the establishment has been shown to be capable of tell preposterous and absurd lies consistently for 60 years.

So every claim must be met with the question where is the physical evidence? And of course there never is any physical evidence. Quoting renowned holohoax scholar R. Van Pelt ...

"Ninety-nine per cent of what we know we do not actually have the physical evidence to prove . . . it has become part of our inherited knowledge.

I don't think that the Holocaust is an exceptional case in that sense. We in the future – remembering the Holocaust – will operate in the same way that we remember most things from the past. We will know about it from literature and eyewitness testimony. . . . We are very successful in remembering the past in that manner. "

Well, he's right about the holohoax, there is no physical evidence, but for other aspects of WW II, he's overlooked a few things ..

 

[Jeffk 1970]

That's not how it works.

That's exactly how it works. The other gas chambers existed, Stat Mech posted pictures of their remnants. A gas chamber exists at Majdanek, there is also a gas chamber at Dachau, though how often it was used or if it was ever used is controversial. Shermer describes other extant gas chambers in his book "Denying History" at other concentration camps, though, again, their use is controversial.

Krema I was never a gas chamber and the claim that it was is absurd.

That sounds like wish fulfillment. It was a gas chamber, the Germans modified the building and made it a bomb shelter after they stopped using it as a gas chamber/crematorium. The Poles and Soviets botched the reconstruction but that does not alter what it was or how the Germans used it.

Constructing a hoax gas chamber after the war and presenting it as found is a preposterous and degenerate lie.

Except when asked museum personnel will tell you that it is a reconstruction. Pressac noted that the building was a reconstruction in his book, Saggy. Faurrison wrote that he knew back in the mid-70's it was a reconstruction and that museum personnel told him this.

Now, supposing for the sake of argument that I'm right, then we have a conclusion, and that is that the promoters of the holohoax are pathological liars the likes of which the world has never seen.

That is a YYYYUUGGEEE leap in logic, Saggy.
At the most you've stated the obvious, the building is a reconstruction.

And who was and still is lying about Krema I?

It's kinda hard to lie about something when anyone who cares to can find out the truth.

The entire holohoax esablishment, not some obscure curator at Auschwitz. Their preposterous lies indict USHMM, Yad Vashem, every Jewish eyewitness, and moreover every academic who has published on the subject, and every academic who has read the idiotic publications, or has seen the idiotic movies, and said nothing.

Wow. All that based on a reconstructed gas chamber?

Once you realize that the promoters of the holohoax are pathological liars then everything they say is completely worthless. Everything can be assumed to be a lie.

LOL
What about the German documents that speak of the deaths of Jews, the documents showing that Germans deported mass numbers of Jews without saying where they wound up, the site investigations that found remains, etc., etc.

Did the Germans all lie?

Thus, when it comes to the holohoax, the establishment has been shown to be capable of tell preposterous and absurd lies consistently for 60 years.

So, your belief system is based on a reconstructed gas chamber and some discrepancies claimed by witnesses.
Got it.
Saggy, I'll ask again, do you need me to go over the basics with you?

So every claim must be met with the question where is the physical evidence? And of course there never is any physical evidence.

Documents are physical evidence, Saggy. So are ruined buildings and mass graves.

Quoting renowned holohoax scholar R. Van Pelt ...

I sense a quote mine coming.

Saggy, I removed it because I want you to provide a link to where Van Pelt said those things.

Well, he's right about the holohoax, there is no physical evidence, but for other aspects of WW II, he's overlooked a few things ..

[qimg]http://i.imgur.com/xuRRlQr.jpg[/qimg]

LOL

Saggy, no one felt the need to conceal ships or tanks.

 

[Jeffk 1970]

Well, this has been fun and all but I need to get some work done.

 

[Belz...]

That's not how it works. Krema I was never a gas chamber and the claim that it was is absurd. Constructing a hoax gas chamber after the war and presenting it as found is a preposterous and degenerate lie.

That sounds like more circular reasoning. How do you know it wasn't a gas chamber, already?

 

[Nessie]

.... Now, supposing for the sake of argument that I'm right, then we have a conclusion, and that is that the promoters of the holohoax are pathological liars the likes of which the world has never seen.

......

There is another part to the conclusion that you are very reluctant to discuss or even acknowledge. For it to be a hoax, not only are the "promoters" lying, there are about 5.5 million Jewish people (along with Roma, homosexuals, Jehovah Witnesses) cooperating by playing dead.

It is essential that you prove how c34,000 Dutch Jews were persuaded to hide somewhere, such that historians and governments declared them dead as part of a hoax, the likes of which the world has never seen.

 

[LemmyCaution]

You won't believe what happened when they ran out of CO2 ......

"They were poisoned in the camps. In trucks which were meant to hold twenty people, the Germans placed a hundred. Quicklime was placed on the floor about ten inches deep. The doors were sealed hermetically. These people had to pass their water – that would start the lime cooking. Gas and fumes came up and choked them to death. Bodies were thrown into special crematories on the border between Germany and Poland and burned there."

This is from 'The Black Book' by Soviet Jews Vasily Grossman and Ilya Ehrenberg, "an extraordinary collection of eye-witness reports, diary entries and other accounts of the mass murder of Jews..." -- Wall Street Journal, January, 19th, 2008, pg. W8 - reviewed by Prof. Omer Bartov

Thank God we have eyewitnesses to tell the awful truth. Or, do you think they were lying?

page reference, and edition info, for quoted material from Grossman & Ehrenburg's Black Book, please? also location about which this witness was reporting? thanks in advance

 

[Belz...]

There is another part to the conclusion that you are very reluctant to discuss or even acknowledge. For it to be a hoax, not only are the "promoters" lying, there are about 5.5 million Jewish people (along with Roma, homosexuals, Jehovah Witnesses) cooperating by playing dead.

It is essential that you prove how c34,000 Dutch Jews were persuaded to hide somewhere, such that historians and governments declared them dead as part of a hoax, the likes of which the world has never seen.

I think deniers say that they died but of other causes. How they can say this without evidence while complaining that the holocaust is false because of lack of evidence is puzzling, though.

 

[LemmyCaution]

page reference, and edition info, for quoted material from Grossman & Ehrenburg's Black Book, please? also location about which this witness was reporting? thanks in advance

Saggy,

Btw this request is simple and direct: the page number in Grossman & Ehrenburg's Black Book, with edition info, for the quicklime passage you quoted and information about the location of this reported incident.

I appreciate an answer to this query, unlike your dodging most questions put to you.

I trust you will recall why I am asking.

Thanks, LC

 

[Nessie]

I think deniers say that they died but of other causes. How they can say this without evidence while complaining that the holocaust is false because of lack of evidence is puzzling, though.

Denialists show how corrupt they are by demanding excessive levels of evidence to prove mass murder, but accepting very little inconclusive evidence as proof of mass survival. They also rely on the fallacy of; if not A, therefore B.

 

[Degeneve]

That's not how it works. Krema I was never a gas chamber and the claim that it was is absurd. Constructing a hoax gas chamber after the war and presenting it as found is a preposterous and degenerate lie. Now, supposing for the sake of argument that I'm right, then we have a conclusion, and that is that the promoters of the holohoax are pathological liars the likes of which the world has never seen.

And who was and still is lying about Krema I? The entire holohoax esablishment, not some obscure curator at Auschwitz. Their preposterous lies indict USHMM, Yad Vashem, every Jewish eyewitness, and moreover every academic who has published on the subject, and every academic who has read the idiotic publications, or has seen the idiotic movies, and said nothing.

This must be the reason why even Fred Leuchter managed to find traces of hydrogen cyanide in the walls of Krema I. Please explain how this product could be found in the walls...

Once you realize that the promoters of the holohoax are pathological liars then everything they say is completely worthless. Everything can be assumed to be a lie.

The only pathologic liars I know in this whole story are the denialists, as has been confirmed, for instance, by a French court about Robert Faurisson. Although the court used the words "professional liar" and not "pathologic liar"...

 

[LemmyCaution]

Oh and the judgment in the Irving v Lipstadt case:

I find myself unable to accept Irving's contention that his falsification of the historical record is the product of innocent error or misinterpretation or incompetence on his part. When account is taken of all the considerations set out in paragraphs 13.140 to 13.161 above, it appears to me that the correct and inevitable inference must be that for the most part the falsification of the historical record was deliberate and that Irving was motivated by a desire to present events in a manner consistent with his own ideological beliefs even if that involved distortion and manipulation of historical evidence.

 

[Axxman300]

That would be CO not CO2.

Copy that.

It was late when I wrote that.

 

[Axxman300]

So every claim must be met with the question where is the physical evidence? And of course there never is any physical evidence. Quoting renowned holohoax scholar R. Van Pelt ...

"Ninety-nine per cent of what we know we do not actually have the physical evidence to prove . . . it has become part of our inherited knowledge.

I don't think that the Holocaust is an exceptional case in that sense. We in the future – remembering the Holocaust – will operate in the same way that we remember most things from the past. We will know about it from literature and eyewitness testimony. . . . We are very successful in remembering the past in that manner. "

Well, he's right about the holohoax, there is no physical evidence, but for other aspects of WW II, he's overlooked a few things ..

No evidence except for the camps, the testimony of S.S. officers and guards, confessions of captured S.S. in Soviet captivity, more than enough captured documents...and the absence of Jews after the war.

Other than that we got nothing.

 

[Belz...]

Copy that.

Co2py that.

 

[Belz...]

No evidence except for the camps, the testimony of S.S. officers and guards, confessions of captured S.S. in Soviet captivity, more than enough captured documents...and the absence of Jews after the war.

Yeah but do you have a Youtube video of it?

 

[LemmyCaution]

Yeah but do you have a Youtube video of it?

LOL but actually of course . . .

Suchomel: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-NpF3jGmKOM

Liepaja shooting: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BaWUek-ER7w

etc

 

[dudalb]

I do hope you guys keep this up.

Watching a Holocaust Denier getting his arse handed to him on a sterling silver platter by Holocaust Proponents who clearly know more about Holocaust Denial than the Holocaust Denier, has been, thus far, thoroughly entertaining.

It's the Black Knight in "Monty Python And The Holy Grail" all over again.

 

[LeoMajor]

That's not how it works. Krema I was never a gas chamber and the claim that it was is absurd.

We are making precisely that claim and we have the facts to back it up. Hoess and numerous other witnesses described Krema 1 as the location of experimental gassings of Soviet POW`s that occurred in the fall and winter of 1941. Some gassings did occur there in the Spring of 1942 before the facility was abandoned and other facilities were put into use. This has been extensively investigated by historians and confirmed.

Constructing a hoax gas chamber after the war and presenting it as found is a preposterous and degenerate lie.

The building that contained the original, experimental gas chamber was heavily restored after the war but to say that it was in any way a `hoax gas chmaber`is to be ignorant of the very real killings that took place there.

,Now, supposing for the sake of argument that I'm right

You`re not.

then we have a conclusion, and that is that Mattogno, Graf, and Kues are pathological liars the likes of which the world has never seen.

Fixed

And who was and still is lying about Krema I? The entire holohoax esablishment, not some obscure curator at Auschwitz.

Piper wasn`t Lying - his words were taken horribly out of context by the troll who made the video. In fact it has been known by experts for some time that the gas chamber in the A1 Stammlager is heavily reconstructed. Your heavy breathing on the matter inclines me to liken you to someone who is just shocked I tell you, to find out that mankind has landed on the moon.

Their preposterous lies indict USHMM every Jewish eyewitness,

Are you alright? Just because the current structure is mostly remade does not exclude the proven occurrence of the crimes that took place at the location of the previous structure that stood in its place. Your grasp of basic chronology seems to be feeble at best and I suggest that you seek specialist help.

and moreover every academic who has published on the subject, and every academic who has read the idiotic publications, or has seen the idiotic movies, and said nothing.

The experimantal gas chamber in A1 is but a footnote. Your lumping the bulk of scholarship on Auschwitz, most of which concerns the gassings at A-2/ Birikenau , into your inane little conspiracy theory on the gas chamber at A1 exposes you as unqualified to discuss any element of Holocaust history or WWII history in general until you have done more reading on the subject. Like a lot more.

Once you realize that Mattogno Graf, and Kues are pathological liars then everything they say is completely worthless. Everything can be assumed to be a lie.

Fixed!

Thus, when it comes to the holohoax, the establishment has been shown to be capable of tell preposterous and absurd lies consistently for 60 years.

You are astonishingly repetitive. "pathological lairs, preposterous lies, degenerative lies, absurd lies, chicken-fried lies with a side of relish and a glass of Jim Bean...." Are you really so limited in argumentative lexicon?

So every claim must be met with the question where is the physical evidence?

Harry Mazal, Daniel Keren and Jamie McCarthy investigated the ruin of Krema 2 in Birkenau and found the introductory holes through which the Zyklon-B was poured. Scientists from the Krakow Forensic Institute also found cyanide traces in the walls of the Birkenau Kremas.

Well, he's right about the holohoax, there is no physical evidence, but for other aspects of WW II, he's overlooked a few things ..

Please show me or draw me physical evidence of the role the Maori battalion of the RNZA played at the Battle of Monte Casino. Show me physical evidence of most of Erich Hartmann's kills. Show me Physical evidence of most of the Nazis that Ivan Sidorenko killed. Show me or draw me physical evidence of the Bataan Death March.

Your description of the role played by "physical evidence" is childish and misleading.

 

[Nessie]

All denialism has to offer here is Saggy. Over at CODOH and RODOH, the two forums run by denialists, Greg Gerdes has become their main champion to promote their beliefs. He has been handed freedom of the forums to post multiple threads, where he refuses to debate and instead asks multiple questions looking only for yes/no, numeric or true/false answers.

For those who do not know, Gerdes claims to be a "forensic master" and he runs the National Association of Forensic Historians, who have issued a challenge to answer about 50 yes/no questions about the mass graves at the AR camps.

Fact is, he refuses to show any qualifications, there is no other trace of a NAFH, there is no trace of the association or its members doing any work or research and it is clearly a hoax.

That he is the main man at the moment shows how denialism is now reduced to scraping the bottom of a very empty barrel.