CNN Doxxes a gif maker

I agree with this and everything you've said on this page up to this/my post. I've already tried pointing this stuff out but good luck.

We don't know how Trump got the GIF, everyone admits that. Some people believe they have the best theory and that is where bias comes into play. It's funny that "I don't know" (a lack of evidence) is feverishly challenged by supposition (a lack of evidence).

CNN does not reveal the identity of racist, white supremacist meme-creator, says they reserve the right to = IMMEDIATE OUTRAGE! EXTORTION! FIRST AMENDMENT!

President of the United States repeatedly tweets crap from racists and white supremacists = Let's not rush to judgement.
 
Actual doxxing.

Complete with photo of house, name, and address. WTH??


Cliffs notes - the singer from Blues Traveller for some reason is posting aerial pics of some dude's house and following it up with his name and address.

Looks the Trump administration might have found themselves a new communications director.
 
Well, rather than tell me that I have not put a modicrum of reflection on this as a way to declare yourself right, how about you explain why it's nonsensical?



That's a claim, not an explanation.

I believe I've sketched one reason that the view negative statements get the benefit of the doubt is naive previously, but I will repeat it
below.

First, let's talk about what we mean by "negative" claim. Typically, the proponent of the view that such claims get the benefit of the
doubt is really discussing universally quantified claims, not negative claims. There's no reason to think "Arsenal lost their last game"
gets benefit of the doubt over "Arsenal won their last game." Rather, the proponent means that existential claims have a burden that their negations (universal claims) do not.

Why should we presume (A x)Px is true, and require proof that (E x)~Px? A common argument is that universal claims cannot be proven, and hence should be assumed true. But this is bizarre for two reasons. The first is that universal claims certainly can be proven
in many cases, and even absent proof, evidence can be adduced to show the claim is at least probable. Moreover, why should we think that unprovability entails "likely true"?

There is one sense in which it makes sense to assert a universal claim, barring evidence to the contrary, and that is best described in learning theory. Suppose Px is quantifier-free and suppose furthermore that the following is true:

If (E x)Px then there is some time in the future when we will observe Pk for some k.

That assumption is very strong. It says, in essence, that we are guaranteed to find evidence verifying (E x)Px if (E x)Px is true. It
is rare to know that this is the case. However, if it is the case, then the best strategy is to assume (E x)Px is false and await evidence to the contrary, at which point we will change our beliefs. In this way, we are guaranteed to converge to the truth in the first possible moment.

But the proponents of privileging universal claims pay no mind to either the assumption nor spell out the essential point that Px must
be quantifier-free for this to work[1]. If we allow for nested quantifiers in applying this rule, then we come to ridiculous conclusions such as:

(1) For each a, we assume that (E x)Pax is false.

(2) We also assume (A y)(E x)Pyx is true.

Similarly, if we strictly follow this rule, then we run into issues when we have (E x)Px <-> (A y)Qy, because the left hand side has the
burden of proof, while the right hand side has no such burden.

Example: Suppose we know that the lights were off in the dining room before Joe entered the room. Suppose that if he toggled either of two light switches, the lights are on. Then

(E x)(x is a light switch and Joe toggled x) <-> (A y)(y is a light -> y is on).

Thus, I claim that the view that "negative claims get the benefit of the doubt" (or that positive claims have the burden of proof) (1) has
no good argument in its favor, unless we are quite careful in spelling out the technical details of the learning theoretic claim and (2)
leads to inconsistent conclusions regarding the burden of proof either in the case of nested quantifiers or in the case in which an
existential statement is equivalent to a universal statement.

This is why I regard such principles as naive and nonsensical.

To bring this digression back on-topic, there is no good reason to presume there is no association between Trump and HAS a
priori. Rather, we examine our background knowledge and any evidence at hand to decide whether an association is probable or improbable. If we are unable to come to a conclusion based on what we know or discover, the prudent conclusion is that we simply do not know enough to form an opinion.

(Note that much of what I say here is repeated in the analysis section of the WP article on Russell's teapot, most notably the bit attributed to Chamberlain. Note as well that Russell certainly did *not* conclude from his example that universal statements get the benefit of the doubt, at least not in the excerpted bits in that article. Rather, it seems to me that he is arguing against a particular kind of appeal to ignorance, whereas the view you espouse is more or less another appeal to ignorance.)


[1] Technically, there can be quantifiers in Px, so long as each of them is existential in the quantifier-normal form of Px.
 
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So they should have reserved the right to publish details about him, but they shouldn't have said so?

Yes because then they wouldn't have created the appearance of threatening a private citizen.
 
Yes because then they wouldn't have created the appearance of threatening a private citizen.

Is that better or worse than creating the appearance that the president is an admirer of racists and white supremacists?
 
Welcome to the inside a cuckoo clock, where doing a thing is fine but saying you might do it is wrong.
That's not so unbelievable.

Suppose I have medicine to save one of two persons. Giving the medicine to A is okay, but it would be wrong to tell B that unless he gives me all his wealth, I will give the medicine to A and B will die.

Some of those who are criticizing CNN are suggesting that they behaved similarly in publicly reserving the right to publish.

I'm not convinced, but I do think that CNN's announcement was poorly worded at best. It does sound a bit threatening, whether they intended it that way or not.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk
 
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I think we should perhaps focus on what exactly CNN was "threatening" to do. They are in possession of the truth about who made that GIF and were "threatening" to publish it, thereby exercising their legally protected rights as journalists. My only issue with them is that they inexplicably held back, citing reasons which are laughable at best, harmful at worst.
 
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I think we should perhaps focus on what exactly CNN was "threatening" to do. They are in possession of the truth about who made that GIF and were "threatening" to publish it, thereby exercising their legally protected rights as journalists. My only issue with them is that they inexplicably held back, citing reasons which are laughable at best, harmful at worst.

To quote the New York Times article:
CNN wrote in the article that it was not publishing the user’s name “because he is a private citizen who has issued an extensive statement of apology, showed his remorse by saying he has taken down all his offending posts, and because he said he is not going to repeat this ugly behavior on social media again. In addition, he said his statement could serve as an example to others not to do the same.”

It continued: “CNN reserves the right to publish his identity should any of that change.

The highlighted part is, I think, what makes this look like a threat. They reserve the right to publish if any of the following occur:
(1) HAS takes back his apology.
(2) HAS reposts his old posts.
(3) HAS repeats this ugly behavior.

You and I agree that CNN has the right to publish, but these are not good reasons to publish after the first report. These reasons do look like CNN is trying to influence HAS, to ensure that he stays on the straight and narrow, and that's not a traditional role of journalists.

That's why, I think, some people take offense at the above announcement and wouldn't have taken offense if CNN had simply published in the first place. Publishing information that is arguably newsworthy is a natural function of the press. Publishing information previously withheld because the subject has done something CNN doesn't like is a lot less a normal function of the press.

So, I agree with others that CNN's statement doesn't look good. It might have been just very poorly written and not well-vetted, but it looks like they are using the threat of publication to change HAS's behavior, and that's fishy at best.
 
To
The highlighted part is, I think, what makes this look like a threat. They reserve the right to publish if any of the following occur:
(1) HAS takes back his apology.
(2) HAS reposts his old posts.
(3) HAS repeats this ugly behavior.

You and I agree that CNN has the right to publish, but these are not good reasons to publish after the first report. These reasons do look like CNN is trying to influence HAS, to ensure that he stays on the straight and narrow, and that's not a traditional role of journalists.

If #1 or #2 happens, then KFILE was deceitfully manipulated into refraining from publishing the results of his investigation. Publication thereafter is simply a matter of showing that you are playing tit-for-tat, in a society where people keep track of whether you allow yourself to get rolled.

As to #3, I've willing to give some ground. It's a bit of a judgement call as to what exactly HAS promised.
 
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Is that better or worse than creating the appearance that the president is an admirer of racists and white supremacists?

Irrelevant. This thread isn't about whether or not Trump admires white supremacists. Let's say you are right: Trump follows racists and gets all his tweet ideas from them. Trump bad. Now what? Does that make what CNN did OK somehow? That's the subject of this thread.
 
If #1 or #2 happens, then KFILE was deceitfully manipulated into refraining from publishing the results of his investigation.
Maybe. But that doesn't really follow from what we know. We know that the result of his investigation (and you know because you now know who the guy is, apparently) was that HAS is a nobody private citizen. A random internet troll. Thus, his name is not really newsworthy. We wouldn't even know that had CNN not made their public statement that they knew.

All CNN had to do was simply not publish a story that they had already determined was not newsworthy.

Publication thereafter is simply a matter of showing that you are playing tit-for-tat, in a society where people keep track of whether you allow yourself to get rolled.
Who is keeping track? Why would it matter? If KFILE hadn't made that public statement about it, we wouldn't even know. HAS begging for mercy isn't really a news story, unless that news story is, "Don't **** with CNN or we will come after you!"

I think it's far more likely that KFILE/CNN saw an opportunity to put an internet troll who had a laugh at their expense in his place and took it. It was a poor decision and makes them look bad.
 
I read their "we reserve the right" as acknowledgement that they are remiss in their journalistic duties in not outing him.

If the schmuck continues or establishes another anonymous account to post even worse trash? Them accepting his heartfelt crocodile tears of an apology makes them look like dupes. They decided to err on the side of being human. They didn't out him, in spite of Big Dog's (and your) liberal interpretation of the word "doxxing".

You post hateful bigoted ****? Why should I respect some obscure "don't be a rat" mobster morality and protect you? It's no business of mine what bigots and miscreants of various stripes think, PRIVATELY. The minute they go public, they're fair game.

CNN threatening to dox someone is a major concern? Not to me. What if HAS goes postal and shoots up one of those rallies he thinks are peopled by violent hypocrites who disagree with him? He's already shown that he thinks whupping ass of political opponents is a funny yet satisfactory solution. How swell will CNN look for having blown the opportunity to nip this in the bud?
(Extreme hypothetical, of course.)
 
Wow, man. I don't think I deserve this much work for an explanation!

First, let's talk about what we mean by "negative" claim. Typically, the proponent of the view that such claims get the benefit of the doubt is really discussing universally quantified claims, not negative claims. There's no reason to think "Arsenal lost their last game"
gets benefit of the doubt over "Arsenal won their last game." Rather, the proponent means that existential claims have a burden that their negations (universal claims) do not.

Why should we presume (A x)Px is true, and require proof that (E x)~Px? A common argument is that universal claims cannot be proven, and hence should be assumed true. But this is bizarre for two reasons. The first is that universal claims certainly can be proven
in many cases, and even absent proof, evidence can be adduced to show the claim is at least probable. Moreover, why should we think that unprovability entails "likely true"?

Ok, I get what you're getting at. But the reason why I take it that the negative claim has the advantage is that very often it's essentially impossible to prove either way. That is, the claim that something doesn't exist can't be proven, so we place the burden on the positive claim instead because it's a lot easier to demonstrate. I disagree with you that universal claims of this sort can be proven.

There is one sense in which it makes sense to assert a universal claim, barring evidence to the contrary, and that is best described in learning theory. Suppose Px is quantifier-free and suppose furthermore that the following is true:

Apologies, but when notations like this entre the discussion I usually disconnect because my brain apparently can't interpret those things properly. I'm going to have to skip the rest of your post, unfortunately.
 
I read their "we reserve the right" as acknowledgement that they are remiss in their journalistic duties in not outing him.

If the schmuck continues or establishes another anonymous account to post even worse trash? Them accepting his heartfelt crocodile tears of an apology makes them look like dupes. They decided to err on the side of being human. They didn't out him, in spite of Big Dog's (and your) liberal interpretation of the word "doxxing".

You post hateful bigoted ****? Why should I respect some obscure "don't be a rat" mobster morality and protect you? It's no business of mine what bigots and miscreants of various stripes think, PRIVATELY. The minute they go public, they're fair game.

CNN threatening to dox someone is a major concern? Not to me. What if HAS goes postal and shoots up one of those rallies he thinks are peopled by violent hypocrites who disagree with him? He's already shown that he thinks whupping ass of political opponents is a funny yet satisfactory solution. How swell will CNN look for having blown the opportunity to nip this in the bud?
(Extreme hypothetical, of course.)
So why isn't CNN hunting down every racist internet troll?

Why isn't CNN hunting down the original author of every presidential tweet and retweet, just in case they turn out to be a racist internet troll that needs to be threatened with outing if they don't change their ways?

This signature is intended to irradiate people.
 
Wow, man. I don't think I deserve this much work for an explanation!



Ok, I get what you're getting at. But the reason why I take it that the negative claim has the advantage is that very often it's essentially impossible to prove either way. That is, the claim that something doesn't exist can't be proven, so we place the burden on the positive claim instead because it's a lot easier to demonstrate. I disagree with you that universal claims of this sort can be proven.

This sort of reasoning is the mirror image of the fallacy that Russell's Teapot was all about.

The theist says, "You cannot refute that God exists, and hence He exists."

Now you're saying, "I cannot prove that God does not exist and you have not refuted it, and so we must conclude He doesn't exist."

Both of these are particularized versions of appeal to ignorance. The latter includes a very strange premise. How is it that the unverifiability of a claim makes it worth assuming to be true? It sounds motivated by pity: poor George chose an unverifiable claim! Let's give him a head start by assuming that it's true.

Finally, let's think about Russell's teapot for a moment. Suppose we change the claim. Let's say that the claim is, "There is a blarg orbiting Saturn." Suppose that blarg is a well-defined term with a clear referent, but you personally don't know what blarg means.

If negative claims deserve the benefit of the doubt, you would be bound to say that we ought to presume, until evidence to the contrary arises, that there is no blarg orbiting Saturn. This sounds like nonsense to me. Blarg might mean "teapot" or "unicorn" or "round triangle", but it also might mean "hydrogen molecule" or "rock" or "bit of matter". Whether the positive or negative claim deserves the benefit of the doubt depends on the meaning of the terms involved and our knowledge of such things, not the logical form of the statement.

When it comes to associations between Trump and HAS, any assertion of the (non-)existence of such a relationship requires argument. We can't expect proof at this time, so we aim only for reasons to find such a relationship either probable or otherwise and also weigh the strength of our reasons for such a conclusion. It is likely that other reasonable persons, with different background knowledge and assessing the strength of premises differently, will come to different conclusions. We can't avoid the issue simply by saying that the positive claim has the burden of proof.

As far as your comment, "I disagree with you that universal claims of this sort can be proven," it depends on the claim. Of course I can prove that there is no normal, full-grown, physical and visible elephant in my kitchen, in the usual, daily sense of "prove" -- the sense used when we speak of proving the "positive" claim. Moreover, most of the time, we are reasoning inductively and proof is not our standard, but mere probability. If I've searched long and hard for Bigfoot with no success, then it eventually becomes very improbable he exists. Prior to searching, I've no basis for asserting with confidence that he does not exist (since there is nothing in my background knowledge that suggests he is unlikely[1]).

[1] Not strictly true, I'm afraid, since I know that there is no conclusive evidence that he exists and that large mammals don't seem to escape notice in populated areas for so long, but let's leave that aside.
 
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Irrelevant. This thread isn't about whether or not Trump admires white supremacists. Let's say you are right: Trump follows racists and gets all his tweet ideas from them. Trump bad. Now what? Does that make what CNN did OK somehow? That's the subject of this thread.

And I'm discussing that topic. Specifically, I'm addressing the validity of the claims made about CNN and examining the standards being used to judge their actions.

So far, I've determined that CNN gets held to a higher standard of behavior and requires less evidence of wrongdoing than the President of the United States and his role in all of this. I just haven't figured out why yet.
 
So why isn't CNN hunting down every racist internet troll?

Why isn't CNN hunting down the original author of every presidential tweet and retweet, just in case they turn out to be a racist internet troll that needs to be threatened with outing if they don't change their ways?

Since you've branded CNN as the Internet Thought Police, these sound like questions you should be answering.
 

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