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Trump - No transgender individuals in the military

quadraginta said:
Or, conversely, go over the medical benefits provided to soldiers and see what other vanishingly minute fractions of the money spent can be legislated against.

Why should we be paying for soldiers' Viagra?
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So that when they are fighting they can keep it up????? For a long time!!!???
 
Beerina said:
The latter is the vast majority of the former. There are reasons to find what he did as pandering rather than practical, but this isn't one of them.
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Not really IMO. The best way to keep the US people safe is to not have to go to war - in which case "decisive and overwhelming victories" are completely unnecessary.
 
Desert Fox said:
One of the Seal that killed Osama bin Laden was a Transgender. I also know of a former tanker and navy sub crew member who were transgender.
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I don't know if that is helpful. I'm going to assume during that time they presented as their sex. It seems the military is fine with presenting as your sex during your time in service.
 
Civet said:
Yes, exactly. A perk of service that becomes an incentive to enlist.
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Sorry, as I take it that you're only repeating a rubric you've heard somewhere, but these slippery slope arguments always sound like ol' Cletus down to the general store talking about integrating the schools. "Oh, yeah??!! What next? You want one of them marrying your sister?"

As my friend Rashad put it, "I've seen your sister, peckerwood. No one wants to marry her."

Knowing the amount of bigotry and violence that trans folks experience, the thought that they'd be actively seeking employment in one of the most homophobic and transphobic environments known to humankind is a bit of a stretch. This is not dissimilar to the member here who wondered (just asking questions, ya know) if a "straight" person might take advantage of a recent court ruling to get gender re-assignment surgery so he could get into a woman's prison and perform some kind of pre-versions.

I'm sure on page seventy of USA Today, someone can find some person crazy enough to do either of those things, but I think it's far from the number of individuals to consider it a "movement"; and actually far less than the number required to list it as a concern other than among the readers of the Penny Pincher in Biblethumper, Arkansas.
 
Foolmewunz said:
Sorry, as I take it that you're only repeating a rubric you've heard somewhere, but these slippery slope arguments always sound like ol' Cletus down to the general store talking about integrating the schools. "Oh, yeah??!! What next? You want one of them marrying your sister?"

As my friend Rashad put it, "I've seen your sister, peckerwood. No one wants to marry her."

Knowing the amount of bigotry and violence that trans folks experience, the thought that they'd be actively seeking employment in one of the most homophobic and transphobic environments known to humankind is a bit of a stretch. This is not dissimilar to the member here who wondered (just asking questions, ya know) if a "straight" person might take advantage of a recent court ruling to get gender re-assignment surgery so he could get into a woman's prison and perform some kind of pre-versions.

I'm sure on page seventy of USA Today, someone can find some person crazy enough to do either of those things, but I think it's far from the number of individuals to consider it a "movement"; and actually far less than the number required to list it as a concern other than among the readers of the Penny Pincher in Biblethumper, Arkansas.
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Right, I was just passing on a viewpoint I'd seen expressed multiple times that hadn't been mentioned in this thread. My own view is a bit different.
I think that the number of transgender people likely to join the military in order to get surgery paid for is too minuscule for it to be a major economic issue. A large percentage of transgender people do serve in the armed forces (something like 20% according to some estimates) but their motives have nothing to do with medicine. I've known a number of transwomen who've served and all of them did so while presenting as male. They often joined the military in an ultimately unsuccessful attempt to suppress their femininity. I'd imagine that transmen have rather different motives, but I've never known any.
 
timhau said:
How does that cost compare to those caused by Trump's trips to Mar-a-lago?
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Apples and oranges my friend, apples and oranges.....

Every penny spent on President Trump's trips to Mar-a-lago is an investment in Making America Great Again. Every second spent on the golf course is a billion dollars added to US GDP thanks to The Greatest American President Of All Time's phenomenal deal making ability. Every ketchup-slathered well done steak is another stepping stone to repairing the damage done to Sino-US relationships after some idiot unilaterally pulled out of the TPP. ;)

OTOH the costs of gender reassignment for transgender service personnel and veterans aren't just financial (although I think we can agree that the projected exorbitant $2m - $8m is actually far higher than the very reasonable $150m spent on Presidential travel #alternativemaths) but every person who undergoes gender reassignment makes the United States less righteous, less godly and less safe for the children - in short less Great.
 
BobTheCoward said:
There is some ex soldier that put out a bunch of tweets that people think are great.

He talks about how a warzone is mentally demanding and



Maybe a reasonable stance. But he keeps going



But I have no idea if hacking it is an intrinsic quality, why that doesn't include the ability to hack it with transgender issues.
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I don't think its reasonable of him to characterise transgender folk as confused about gender any more than you can say homosexuals are confused about their sexuality.

Things like this just reinforce my opinion that the US military is one of the last refuges for the dregs of society.
 
A report for the Pentagon last year found that transition-related care would cost between about $2.4 and $8.4 million per year — less than 0.14% of the military's medical budget.

That's roughly the cost of four of Trump's trips to Mar-A-Lago, GQ noted, even using a conservative estimate of $2 million per trip. And it's way less than the $84 million spent on Viagra and similar meds by the Department of Defense in 2014, as others also said.
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The cost side is clearly a stupid way to have tackled this. When they could simply have used the mental health issue as reason (https://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/wp-content/uploads/AFSP-Williams-Suicide-Report-Final.pdf a read it diagonally but for some ages the suicide rate is ten time higher in TG folk e.g. among youth - now whether that apply to military situation is open but certainly something one would have to keep an eye at).

But that certainly demonstrate that he is acting on prejudice for his base, and not based on well grounded decision.

ETA: also 0.3% of the US population is estimated as TG (not many resource so you'll excuse me if I use a poorly sourced https://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/09/...t-estimate-of-the-transgender-population.html) that is compared to 0.14% of military budget cited above make the cost thing ridiculous.
 
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Civet said:
Argument I've heard is that a bunch of transgender folks were going to go out and join the military once it started regularly paying for expensive surgery.
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Pretty stupid excuse for an argument.

For starters, if they can qualify, then so what?

Also, even if true it would still be an infinitesimally tiny quantum of the military's medical budget. There aren't that many TGs to begin with. Subtract the ones who don't want surgical transition (not all TGs do), the ones who wouldn't join the military even if they did get surgical transition coverage, the ones who wouldn't qualify even if they wanted to join, and the ones who get transition surgery before they join, the number you are left with is insignificant.
 
Pterodactyl said:
Ok, what other information do you have that we should go on?



No, you disregarding the point I made about "considering the percentage of the population" that would be considered transgendered. From the military's perspective, this would represent an insignificant portion of the population to have to give special consideration to. Their recruiting quotas will not be missed or met on the backs of transgendered people,. Therefore the only reason that the military would give such people special consideration, would be if they had some special aptitude for military endeavors for some reason (obviously unlikely). And you would need evidence to prove that for the military to consider it.



It's been 13 years since I got out of the Marines, but as I recall, everyone must master the basic willingness and ability to carry and shoot weapons before taking on more specialized training



I never said being transgendered prevents any such thing, in fact I have made a point in previous posts to say that I believe a transgendered person is likely just as capable as anyone else of doing so. At least in a vacuum. But the fact of the matter is each person has to function as part of a unit, and the unit itself may not function as well in the presence of a transgendered person.




Yes, that's true. We (civilians) want soldiers who behave professionally. We want them to be eagle scouts who help little old ladies across the street. But what we need as a country is for the military to stress mission accomplishment, above all else. And anything that compromises that effectiveness needs to be viewed very skeptically before admission.
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How does the fact that thousands have already served and thousands more are currently serving in our military without any of these problems you mention affect your opinion

Doesn't the fact that they are already there and none of the problems you are concerned with seem to have any substance sort of take the meat out of your arguments?
 
Aepervius said:
The cost side is clearly a stupid way to have tackled this. When they could simply have used the mental health issue as reason (https://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/wp-content/uploads/AFSP-Williams-Suicide-Report-Final.pdf a read it diagonally but for some ages the suicide rate is ten time higher in TG folk e.g. among youth - now whether that apply to military situation is open but certainly something one would have to keep an eye at).

<snip>
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The dirty secret about that bogus statistic that trans bigots always neglect to share is that the number comes from people who are forced to suppress or deny their TG issues.

Once they are allowed to transition openly and without social stigma the numbers normalize.

In other words, it isn't because they are TG, it's because of the way they are treated because they are TG.

Ubiquitous hate and scorn can contribute quite a bit to depression in someone who is already struggling with a thorny medical issue.
 
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quadraginta said:
The dirty secret about that bogus statistic that trans bigots always neglect to share is that the number comes from people who are forced to suppress or deny their TG issues.

Once they are allowed to transition openly and without social stigma the numbers normalize.

In other words, it isn't because they are TG, it's because of the way they are treated because they are TG.

Ubiquitous hate and scorn can contribute quite a bit to depression in someone who is already struggling with a thorny medical issue.
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The anti-trans bigots always get the numbers wrong. Remember the bald-faced lies during the North Carolina toilet debates... 1. That straight guys would now dress up as women so they could get in the restrooms and expose their man-meat. 2. That it was commonly known that trans people were more likely to be baby-rapers and perpetrators of violent sexual aggression.

Both are complete and total lies.
 
quadraginta said:
The dirty secret about that bogus statistic that trans bigots always neglect to share is that the number comes from people who are forced to suppress or deny their TG issues.

In other words, it isn't because they are TG, it's because of the way they are treated because they are TG.

Ubiquitous hate and scorn can contribute quite a bit to depression in someone who is already struggling with a thorny medical issue.
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Perhaps this is the ultimate intent? Unrelenting bigotry and stigmatization in an effort to get them to either shut up, hide, or commit suicide. Of course, that would imply a level of cynical forethought and diabolical planning on the part of the administration - something that has yet to be demonstrated. The examples seen so far, can more easily be explained by sheer incompetence.
 
HarryHenderson said:
He's afraid he'll look like the other simpletons lefties who think ideology always trumps reality. Like the mindless asshats who attempt to re-purpose freeways for protests and stuff and then get surprised when they get hit by cars. How dare cars disrupt a protest that occurs where cars go. Yet to a car's front tires those same ideological purists are just bumps in the road. Ideology (marching on a freeway) will lose to reality (tires only recognizing things as bumps and not bumps) every time that way. ;)


So is that your acknowledgement such a basis has merit? That is, it's a valid idea unless he thought of it huh?! :cool:

For some reason I can't visualize too many people who are or want to be transgender also wanting any kind of military career. Of course it happens, for example Chelsea (nee Bradley) Manning. But then again look at what a nightmare she turned out to be.
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Or Kirstin Beck who was a member of seal team 6. Everyone knows how low the standards are there and who incompetent all its members are.
 
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