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Trump - No transgender individuals in the military

Skeptic Tank said:
This is awesome. I only wish he'd reverse allowing homosexuals, nonwhites and women* to serve as well.

*Obviously there are probably some appropriate roles far from combat for women, maybe.

During my time in the military, I had the opportunity to see how much better an almost entirely white male unit functions than any other kind.

No sane society would even need to have a discussion about whether transsexuals can serve.
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Better than what?
 
I am on the fence with this issue.

I can understand folks seeing a man wanting to be a woman and a woman wanting to be a man, as suffering from some sort of gender ID disorder.
 
At least there's a new way to avoid being drafted, if it comes to that.
 
This is how Trump compensates losing the ObamaCare Repeal vote for the 7th time.

By attacking Transgender folks.
 
Could those that think a ban is necessary please list the things a soldier needs to do that a transgender person cannot accomplish?
 
There is some ex soldier that put out a bunch of tweets that people think are great.

He talks about how a warzone is mentally demanding and

Now take someone confused about whether they are a man/woman. Take those psychological and emotional issues and put them in that environment
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Maybe a reasonable stance. But he keeps going

You can't teach someone to be a fearless warrior in a *********** PowerPoint. You either have it or you don't. You can hack it or you can't.
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But I have no idea if hacking it is an intrinsic quality, why that doesn't include the ability to hack it with transgender issues.
 
One of the Seal that killed Osama bin Laden was a Transgender. I also know of a former tanker and navy sub crew member who were transgender.
 
Pterodactyl said:
I think a lot of this depends on a lot of factors that we really dont have sufficient information to go on, and that the military is probably not the right place to carry out the experiment. For one thing, when we say "transgender' we're talking about quite a broad range of individuals, aren't we? Those on hormone treatments, those who have had operations, those who haven't but identify as if they have, those who quit along the transition somewhere in between. Females with male genitalia, males with female genitalia. You've got people showering together, packed in shelters together.... I dont see where such inclusion would actually help anything. A significant portion of our society can't even agree on restroom usage and we're going quite a step further here.
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Actually, this isn't going a step further, all we are doing is allowing a person to carry on their chosen profession.

For one thing, unit cohesion is a primary driver of effectiveness. I can certainly imagine ways in which allowing a transgender person in an otherwise constructed unit might disrupt cohesiveness.
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Same as allowing persons of colour to serve with white-folk... If we accept transgender persons as part of society then they should be allowed to serve if they are physically capable.

Of course you can force people by military law to just ignore such differences on a professional level, but I imagine what you're going to end up with is just a million different lawsuits and busted morale with lessened effectiveness in the interim. Who thinks we spend too little on the military now? Who thinks this will result in us spending less? Maybe someday it would all shake out fine.
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Seems that these same arguments were made when units were racially integrated. Get the transition done. Sooner done, sooner sorted.

I'd be open to looking at the success/failures of allowing service of transgender individual in the militaries of other countries and the relative effectiveness in combat. How haver such individuals faired in similar fields, policing, etc.

How about sports teams? How have transgendered individuals managed to do as professional athletes?
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The Canadian and British militaries allow it. The difference in combat effectiveness between them and the US is down to equipment differences, not training or cohesiveness.
 
We have a lot of transgender people in SoCal with military backgrounds. Like a whole, whole lot. Transwomen are actually statistically over-represented among veterans.
 
tyr_13 said:
No, you're going to far in presuming that Trump is telling the truth when he says the generals advised him to do this.
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Ok, what other information do you have that we should go on?

No, the evidence would have to be in the other direction; you'd have to show that transgendered people are unfit to serve because of their being transgendered. Your argument here is backwards. It would have to be shown that it prevents them from excelling. Remember, they as individuals still have to pass all the other tests and evaluations.
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No, you disregarding the point I made about "considering the percentage of the population" that would be considered transgendered. From the military's perspective, this would represent an insignificant portion of the population to have to give special consideration to. Their recruiting quotas will not be missed or met on the backs of transgendered people,. Therefore the only reason that the military would give such people special consideration, would be if they had some special aptitude for military endeavors for some reason (obviously unlikely). And you would need evidence to prove that for the military to consider it.

The military probably also knows that most of their jobs don't actually involve toting machine guns nor diraectly killing things. I mean, hot damn, do you even know anyone in the military? It's not just all direct combat.
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It's been 13 years since I got out of the Marines, but as I recall, everyone must master the basic willingness and ability to carry and shoot weapons before taking on more specialized training

On top of that, why on earth do you think being trangendered prevents someone from being good at carrying machine guns or killing things? There have been front line combat transgender people, who ironically PICK to put in for front deployment because the rules weren't as enforced and they could dress and behave as the gender they feel they are.
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I never said being transgendered prevents any such thing, in fact I have made a point in previous posts to say that I believe a transgendered person is likely just as capable as anyone else of doing so. At least in a vacuum. But the fact of the matter is each person has to function as part of a unit, and the unit itself may not function as well in the presence of a transgendered person.


Besides killing things, we want soldiers who can kill the RIGHT things. Who behave professionally and have a basic level of 'enlightenment' as to not cause a disruption because the guy next to them is black, or doesn't have a penis, or is an atheist or Muslim, and focus on if they can get the job done.
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Yes, that's true. We (civilians) want soldiers who behave professionally. We want them to be eagle scouts who help little old ladies across the street. But what we need as a country is for the military to stress mission accomplishment, above all else. And anything that compromises that effectiveness needs to be viewed very skeptically before admission.
 
I think when you're air dropped into the desert with 7 or 8 others and your main concern is what's going on in someone else's pants, the the problem with unit readiness, cohesion, and morale might be YOU.

Pretty sure the same argument was made for DADT and the DoD found out it was actually having a negative effect.

It turns out that it kinda puts a damper on feelings of patriotism and loyalty when your unit mate who saved your ass a few weeks ago gets unceremoniously drummed out of the service for some ********.

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I think when you're air dropped into the desert with 7 or 8 others and your main concern is what's going on in someone else's pants, the the problem with unit readiness, cohesion, and morale might be YOU.
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One of the tweets today was from a Marine who said (paraphrased)

I don't care if you have a pussy or a penis, who you are attracted to or who you sleep
with, if you are in my unit, I got your six.
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I was trained to be a soldier and I did my job well and with honor.

(I was in for nine years, only had to deal with two fools who thought females
are there for fun, or not useful.)

For this draft dodging coward in chief to diminish combat readiness so he can
divert from his losses is dishonorable and a disgrace.
 
Pterodactyl said:
Ok, what other information do you have that we should go on?
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That Trump is a pathological liar and his statements should not be considered true until verified by an outside source.



No, you disregarding the point I made about "considering the percentage of the population" that would be considered transgendered. From the military's perspective, this would represent an insignificant portion of the population to have to give special consideration to. Their recruiting quotas will not be missed or met on the backs of transgendered people,. Therefore the only reason that the military would give such people special consideration, would be if they had some special aptitude for military endeavors for some reason (obviously unlikely). And you would need evidence to prove that for the military to consider it.
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What do you think this 'special consideration' is? It looks like this is removing standard consideration. So no, you're simply trying to move burden until you can explain what you mean by this.



It's been 13 years since I got out of the Marines, but as I recall, everyone must master the basic willingness and ability to carry and shoot weapons before taking on more specialized training
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And?


I never said being transgendered prevents any such thing, in fact I have made a point in previous posts to say that I believe a transgendered person is likely just as capable as anyone else of doing so. At least in a vacuum. But the fact of the matter is each person has to function as part of a unit, and the unit itself may not function as well in the presence of a transgendered person.
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Or a Muslim, or an atheist, or a homosexual, or a woman, or a negro...it isn't like we haven't been down this road before. Unless and until someone can provide a more compelling reason than 'some people won't like it', I see no reason to consider it the problem of transgender soldiers. It's the problem of those who are choosing to make it a problem. They are the ones making it not work.




Yes, that's true. We (civilians) want soldiers who behave professionally. We want them to be eagle scouts who help little old ladies across the street. But what we need as a country is for the military to stress mission accomplishment, above all else. And anything that compromises that effectiveness needs to be viewed very skeptically before admission.
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Like banning and dropping accomplished soldiers because some trouble makers have their feelings about gender hurt? That's exactly the point, these foolish negative attitudes about transgender people compromises effectiveness, so it needs to be viewed skeptically.

There are very accomplished transgender soldiers serving right now, and it is a detriment to the military to lose them.
 
Delphic Oracle said:
I think when you're air dropped into the desert with 7 or 8 others and your main concern is what's going on in someone else's pants, the the problem with unit readiness, cohesion, and morale might be YOU.

Pretty sure the same argument was made for DADT and the DoD found out it was actually having a negative effect.

It turns out that it kinda puts a damper on feelings of patriotism and loyalty when your unit mate who saved your ass a few weeks ago gets unceremoniously drummed out of the service for some ********.

Sent from my SM-J327P using Tapatalk
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Exactly! It is as if only the feelings of the people bigoted against transgender people count, the feelings of people who have served with and honor transgender soldiers don't count towards unit cohesion and effectiveness because...reasons?

Any member of the armed forces can look at these fine soldiers and think, "That's how good soldiers are treated?", no matter if they're as straight and cisgendered as one can get.
 
John Jones said:
Where? It's been 44 years since Roe v Wade made legalized abortion the law of the land in the USA.
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....and the GOP has been trying to make it as difficult as possible for women to be able to afford and to obtain proper sex education, contraceptive advice and abortions for the last decade or more.

Just because a law is on the books, doesn't mean that on a local, state or federal steps cannot be taken to thwart it.

A very left wing take on the Trump administration's attacks on women's rights:

https://www.americanprogress.org/is...-trump-administration-harming-women-families/
 
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