General Holocaust denial discussion Part III

[LemmyCaution]

Saggy, maybe Nessie's question is too big for you. Let's try bite-sized chunks.

Nessie noted that the 100,000+ Dutch Jews missing after the war had been taken into custody and held in camp, notably Westerbork and Vugt in the Netherlands - "Those people were in Nazi custody, initially at Westerbork camp and then transported to other camps, such as Sobibor and Auschwitz."

I added information on the deportations of these Jews from the Netherlands - "as many as 110,000 Jews were deported from the Netherlands to the east during the Nazi occupation, most of the Dutch Jews were transported to Auschwitz, except about 34,000 were sent to Sobibór (and several 1000s to Bergen-Belsen and Theresienstadt)."

Do you agree so far - that over 100,000 Jews taken into custody in the Netherlands, under Nazi supervision, were deported from the Netherlands, most of them to Auschwitz, about a third to Sobibór, and some 1000s to other camps? If not, why not?

 

[Saggy]

Except all the physical evidence found and studied at camps and killing sites across eastern Europe . . ..

Unfortunately for the hoax, they're still looking, and haven't found anything yet. As the adage goes, better to remain silent and let people suspect you're a fool, than to open your mouth and have them know it, but Caroline Sturdy Colls wouldn't listen, and publicized her archeological study of Treblinka. Then along came E. Hunt, and made this movie which demonstrates not only that the hoax didn't happen, but the absurd lies and machinations of the hoaxers ....

The Treblinka Archeology Hoax
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YuAAjrbbBiM

 

[Elagabalus]

Unfortunately for the hoax, they're still looking, and haven't found anything yet. As the adage goes, better to remain silent and let people suspect you're a fool, than to open your mouth and have them know it, but Caroline Sturdy Colls wouldn't listen, and publicized her archeological study of Treblinka. Then along came E. Hunt, and made this movie which demonstrates not only that the hoax didn't happen, but the absurd lies and machinations of the hoaxers ....

The Treblinka Archeology Hoax
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YuAAjrbbBiM

[qimg]http://i.imgur.com/RHL74xw.png[/qimg]

Wow. Just Wow.

Saggy: "Look at this video that shows blah, blah, blah"

Lemme: "Yeah, but the guy who made the video now says he was wrong"

Saggy: "But ... it goes to eleven ..."

 

[LemmyCaution]

Unfortunately for the hoax, they're still looking, and haven't found anything yet. As the adage goes, better to remain silent and let people suspect you're a fool, than to open your mouth and have them know it, but Caroline Sturdy Colls wouldn't listen, and publicized her archeological study of Treblinka. Then along came E. Hunt, and made this movie . . .

I will leave you to continue with the personal insults and simply point out to interested readers that 1) Sturdy Colls in her limited work at Treblinka found physical evidence summarized here and complemented by this investigation - as Judge Lukaszkiewicz had discovered already in the 1940s, discussed here and here; 2) at Sobibór the archaeological investigation headed by Haimi and Mazurek continues to discover and map physical evidence, reported here and discussed here; and 3) many shooting sites across Russia and former parts of the USSR have been investigated (discussed here, here and here - also in this news article, as well as here, here, and here, for example, not meant to be comprehensive).

More material you're not aware of?

 

[LemmyCaution]

Wow. Just Wow.

Saggy: "Look at this video that shows blah, blah, blah"

Lemme: "Yeah, but the guy who made the video now says he was wrong"

Saggy: "But ... it goes to eleven ..."

LOL and Saggy ignores Hunt's change of mind without blinking an eye . . . he's simply repeating things that are comforting to his beliefs.

 

[LemmyCaution]

Saggy, maybe Nessie's question is too big for you. Let's try bite-sized chunks.

Nessie noted that the 100,000+ Dutch Jews missing after the war had been taken into custody and held in camp, notably Westerbork and Vugt in the Netherlands - "Those people were in Nazi custody, initially at Westerbork camp and then transported to other camps, such as Sobibor and Auschwitz."

I added information on the deportations of these Jews from the Netherlands - "as many as 110,000 Jews were deported from the Netherlands to the east during the Nazi occupation, most of the Dutch Jews were transported to Auschwitz, except about 34,000 were sent to Sobibór (and several 1000s to Bergen-Belsen and Theresienstadt)."

Do you agree so far - that over 100,000 Jews taken into custody in the Netherlands, under Nazi supervision, were deported from the Netherlands, most of them to Auschwitz, about a third to Sobibór, and some 1000s to other camps? If not, why not?

Saggy, sorry, you missed this post and replied only about physical evidence. So, do you agree so far? Thanks much, LC

 

[Axxman300]

This is something I've read a number of times and which, based on my reading, doesn't hold up to scrutiny. Without disagreeing with the overall thrust of your post, I'd note that on this point that SS men after the war made a variety of defenses, as you'd expect with a large group, one very common defense being to deny individual culpability for general acts and even to blame shift. Most of the defendants in the NMT Nuremberg trial e.g. accepted that the mass murders occurred but some denied participating and a few denied the murders; rationakizations (partisan danger) were also used. Same with other trials.

You are correct. I should have said that there are enough S.S. veterans who have not only confirmed what they did, but were proud of the Final Solution.

The hilarious aspect of Holocaust Denial is that the Nazis ruined antisemitism for less motivated bigots because it made the Jews legitimate victims of what is the ultimate end result of racism, and religious bigotry.

Are their Holocaust Deniers who aren't also antisemites? I doubt it.

The end result is you have a bunch of bigots who don't like being called Nazis even though they believe the same things. How pathetic and intellectually dishonest.

It would be like me, as a Raiders fan, hating the New England Patriots for ruining NFL football by using questionable tactics.

 

[LemmyCaution]

You are correct. I should have said that there are enough S.S. veterans who have not only confirmed what they did, but were proud of the Final Solution.

This, I absolutely agree with. (We can discuss the Patriots another time! LOL)

 

[smartcooky]

Poor old Saggy. He just cannot answer the questions being put to him, so the only response he has left is to post lies, insults, and links to long debunked claims including video by people who have since retracted their holocaust denialist positions.

Looks like desperation and panic to me.

 

[Nessie]

Oh my, the hoaxers seem to really have their panties in a knot. And, it's not surprising I suppose, to have read all those books and still not be able to name one Jew who was gassed by the Nazis, and give the evidence for it. They have plenty of names, but, since none were gassed, no evidence of gassing. I can hear the hoaxers now, 'details, details'.

To understand the hoax you have to understand its basis, fully explained and documented in the vid 'Introduction to the Holohoax', that begins ...

'The holocaust is a preposterous hoax unsupported by any physical evidence. It is made up of literally millions of lies, but it all rests on one 'big lie', that big lie is the focus of this video.'

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=acPfPG457cw

This vid explains the basis of the hoax for anyone interested, the 'big lie', we've all heard/seen it a million times, most recently from SmartCooky above.

There is evidence of gassing and the names of c34,000 Dutch Jews sent to Sobibor, where most were gassed. I submit those names as proven to have been gassed.

What there is truly no evidence for is the survival and mass transit of c34,000 Dutch Jews from Sobibor elsewhere, their subsequent liberation in 1945 and resettlement. Yet you submit those names as proof no one was gassed.

 

[Rincewind]

Poor old Saggy. He just cannot answer the questions being put to him, so the only response he has left is to post lies, insults, and links to long debunked claims including video by people who have since retracted their holocaust denialist positions.

Looks like desperation and panic to me.

Yeah - and we end up with two unconnected conversations running together!

 

[Saggy]

Except all the physical evidence found and studied at camps and killing sites across eastern Europe . . .

There is no physical evidence of the holocaust. No bodies, no murder weapons ('gas chambers'), no documents, no photographs, no intercepted communications (although the Allies broke the German encryption codes). There is only 'testimony'. This was recently admitted by one of the most respected holohoax scholars, Robert Jan Van Pelt, arguing that Birkenau should not be preserved, van Pelt states

https://www.thestar.com/news/insight/2009/12/27/a_case_for_letting_nature_take_back_auschwitz.html

"Ninety-nine per cent of what we know we do not actually have the physical evidence to prove . . . it has become part of our inherited knowledge. I don't think that the Holocaust is an exceptional case in that sense. We in the future – remembering the Holocaust – will operate in the same way that we remember most things from the past. We will know about it from literature and eyewitness testimony. . ."

Van Pelt is right in that there is no physical evidence of the holocaust, but as for other historical events, like WW II for example, he may have overlooked a few things !.

 

[LemmyCaution]

The deportations of Jews from the Netherlands were planned during spring 1942. The Dutch deportations were part of Eichmann's planning for removing Jews from western Europe and connected with specific plans for France and Belgium. Within the Netherlands coordination and implementation plans were handled by German officials - Rauter, of the Security Police, BdS Harster, and aus der Fünten, of the Zentralstelle (the central agency for Jewish matters in the country).

Round-ups of Jews began in mid-July at about the same time as those in France. Raids and round-ups were executed in a number of phases through 29 September 1943.

Here is a link the the Bundesarchiv's detailing these deportations, which began on 15 July 1943. (I have notes I've made from various books and articles that generally agree with this detailed listing but also show some minor discrepancies.)

The deportations removed well over 100,000 Jews from the Netherlands from 15 July 1942 through mid-December 1944.

Is there disagreement over the rough time line and rough numbers of Jews removed by the Germans from the Netherlands?

 

[LemmyCaution]

There is no physical evidence of the holocaust. No bodies, no murder weapons ('gas chambers'), no documents, no photographs, no intercepted communications (although the Allies broke the German encryption codes). There is only 'testimony'. This was recently admitted by one of the most respected holohoax scholars, Robert Jan Van Pelt, arguing that Birkenau should not be preserved, van Pelt states

https://www.thestar.com/news/insight/2009/12/27/a_case_for_letting_nature_take_back_auschwitz.html

"Ninety-nine per cent of what we know we do not actually have the physical evidence to prove . . . it has become part of our inherited knowledge. I don't think that the Holocaust is an exceptional case in that sense. We in the future – remembering the Holocaust – will operate in the same way that we remember most things from the past. We will know about it from literature and eyewitness testimony. . ."

Van Pelt is right in that there is no physical evidence of the holocaust, but as for other historical events, like WW II for example, he may have overlooked a few things !.

[qimg]http://i.imgur.com/xuRRlQr.jpg[/qimg]

I posted links to specifics - Einsatz Reinhard camps and open-air shootings in the occupied USSR - showing that your interpretation and claims are wrong. Please deal with what's been posted.

(Your link is dead, and Pelt is not an expert on the Einsatz Reinhard camps or the mass shootings in the East, nor was he addressing these aspects of the Holocaust; also, Pelt didn't say that there is only testimony - his own work on Auschwitz relies extensively on German documents, technical plans, financial and construction records. In the 2009 statement he gave to the Toronto Star, Pelt also said, "To put the holocaust in some separate category and to demand that it be there – to demand that we have more material evidence – is actually us somehow giving in to the Holocaust deniers by providing some sort of special evidence.' You didn't quote that. Your post is very misleading on all these grounds.)

 

[abaddon]

There is no physical evidence of the holocaust. No bodies, no murder weapons ('gas chambers'), no documents, no photographs, no intercepted communications (although the Allies broke the German encryption codes). There is only 'testimony'. This was recently admitted by one of the most respected holohoax scholars, Robert Jan Van Pelt, arguing that Birkenau should not be preserved, van Pelt states

https://www.thestar.com/news/insight/2009/12/27/a_case_for_letting_nature_take_back_auschwitz.html

"Ninety-nine per cent of what we know we do not actually have the physical evidence to prove . . . it has become part of our inherited knowledge. I don't think that the Holocaust is an exceptional case in that sense. We in the future – remembering the Holocaust – will operate in the same way that we remember most things from the past. We will know about it from literature and eyewitness testimony. . ."

Van Pelt is right in that there is no physical evidence of the holocaust, but as for other historical events, like WW II for example, he may have overlooked a few things !.

[qimg]http://i.imgur.com/xuRRlQr.jpg[/qimg]

Out of context cherry picking. Read the whole article and you will see what was actually intended. But you don't want to do that.

 

[LemmyCaution]

Note: I have never seen a denier ignore as many points made in response to his or her posts as I am seeing here in this forum now. Discussion is impossible in such a situation.

 

[Saggy]

Note: I have never seen a denier ignore as many points made in response to his or her posts as I am seeing here in this forum now. Discussion is impossible in such a situation.

I'm not 'discussing' your idiotic lies, I'm banging the drum of truth.

 

[abaddon]

I'm not 'discussing' your idiotic lies, I'm banging the drum of truth.

No, I'm pretty sure that is not what you are banging at all.

 

[LemmyCaution]

I'm not 'discussing' your idiotic lies, I'm banging the drum of truth.

Well, I'm banging my head on the table in astonishment at your refusal to address any issues anyone raises. The personal insults and your empty bragging do your cause no good. I've asked you to show one lie in my posts. You haven't because you can't.

The way we understand history, btw, isn't by banging drums but by showing evidence, by providing explanations, and by critiquing propositions. Bang away. It's not helping you. Everyone can read and find all your dodges.

 

[Elagabalus]

I'm not 'discussing' your idiotic lies, I'm banging the drum of truth.

Your arguments and comments seem very juvenile. I'm starting to doubt your backstory.