General Holocaust denial discussion Part III

[smartcooky]

We're dealing with a hoax. The only way that you can show it's not a hoax is to prove that the Nazis killed one Jew ! Not six million, prove that they gassed one ! Name one Jew and give the evidence that the Nazis gassed him/her. Otherwise don't bother me with your idiotic lies.

There is a wide range of evidence available which proves that the Nazis used gas chambers to murder Jews.

1. There are the first hand accounts of prisoners who survived the camps, especially by those groups of inmates forced to remove the dead from the gas chambers and dispose of their bodies ("Der Sonderkommando").

2. There is the testimony of the perpetrators themselves at various trials.

3. There are the blueprints of the killing installations.

4. There are documented supply orders for construction materials to build the gas chambers.

5. There are documented supply orders for Zyklon B, and additional documents regarding its shipping and distribution.

6. There are photographs covertly taken by prisoners showing the disposal of corpses removed from the gas chambers.

Members of my own family (two of my uncles) saw first hand the aftermath of the Holocaust when they liberated the camps and found the bodies and the starving and emaciated people. They could smell the stench of rotting corpses from miles away. They found the crematoriums with human bones still in the ovens. They found the stocks of unused Zyklon-B pellets and the gas chambers - THEY DID NOT LIE ABOUT WHAT THEY SAW!!!!

However, it is my opinion that you are a waste of of everyone's space and time because, like all Holocaust Deniers, you are utterly incapable of debating honestly, you refuse to answer difficult questions and you will always prefer your own personal, racist and anti-Semitic agenda over any and all evidence that is presented to you, no matter how compelling it may be.

Additionally, it is my opinion that, like all Conspiracy Theorists, you simply do not understand what is meant by the Burden of Proof... The Holocaust is a well documented and well established fact with hundreds of thousands of official Nazi Government documents, and thousands upon thousands of eye-witnesses to the development, use and aftermath of the Nazi Gas chambers and to the murder of innocent Jewish civilians. The Burden of Proof is on YOU to prove otherwise.

 

[BStrong]

As I noted earlier Saggy has been told what to believe and he believes it....that's pretty much it.

When someone prides themselves as always following orders, that's what they do.

 

[Saggy]

If you haven't read the literature, how do you know it's a pack of lies? Your dismissal is a priori, and therefore wholly irrational.

Pay attention. We're dealing with a hoax. The only way that you can show it's not a hoax is to prove that the Nazis killed one Jew ! Not six million, prove that they gassed one ! Name one Jew and give the evidence that the Nazis gassed him/her. Otherwise don't bother me with your idiotic lies.

 

[Saggy]

Members of my own family (two of my uncles) saw first hand the aftermath of the Holocaust when they liberated the camps and found the bodies and the starving and emaciated people. They could smell the stench of rotting corpses from miles away. They found the crematoriums with human bones still in the ovens. They found the stocks of unused Zyklon-B pellets and the gas chambers - THEY DID NOT LIE ABOUT WHAT THEY SAW!!!!

Only the Soviets liberated death camps, the US did not liberate any death camps. What your uncles saw has nothing to do with the holohoax, which took place at Auschwitz, Majdanek, and 4 camps that were razed before the war ended.

Your uncles saw persons who had died of typhus at Belsen, as you can verify here ...

Introduction to the Holohoax
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=acPfPG457cw

or here, in the British documentary that was shelved for 50 years but can now be seen on PBS Frontline, this vid is the source of the Anne Frank pic, btw,

PBS Frontline Memory of the Camps
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/frontline/film/memory-of-the-camps/

Watch the vid, you'll see why they hid it.

or prisoners that were bombed by the Brits/US at Nordhausen, as you can verify here ...

Questioning the Holocaust
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RddqP0ABzwM

This is a great vid and includes an interview with a Jewish doctor who was at Nordhausen working in the hospital when it, along with the camp, was bombed.

 

[LemmyCaution]

If you haven't read the literature, how do you know it's a pack of lies? Your dismissal is a priori, and therefore wholly irrational.

This must also be why Saggy describes scholarship as "Jewish lies," imagining that a) Jews and lies are virtually synonymous and b) those who study the period are Jewish or merely repeating things Jews say. The level of ignorance and incompetence so proudly declaimed is staggering.

 

[LemmyCaution]

Pay attention. We're dealing with a hoax. The only way that you can show it's not a hoax is to prove that the Nazis killed one Jew ! Not six million, prove that they gassed one ! Name one Jew and give the evidence that the Nazis gassed him/her. Otherwise don't bother me with your idiotic lies.

More frustration and insults: again, you say everyone's lying but you can't point out and prove any lies.

("Your" one-name challenge - actually a really, really old denier challenge - was answered in a link upthread. You ignore anything posted that doesn't fit your beliefs and biases - makes for a crappy discussion.)

 

[LemmyCaution]

Questioning the Holocaust
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RddqP0ABzwM

This is a great vid and includes an interview with a Jewish doctor who was at Nordhausen working in the hospital when it, along with the camp, was bombed.

The guy who made this video, Eric Hunt, has since repudiated Holocaust denial.

 

[Elagabalus]

More frustration and insults: again, you say everyone's lying but you can't point out and prove any lies.

("Your" one-name challenge - actually a really, really old denier challenge - was answered in a link upthread. You ignore anything posted that doesn't fit your beliefs and biases - makes for a crappy discussion.)

Indeed, Lemme, Indeed.

plus ça change plus c'est la même chose

from 2011.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7735536&postcount=7195

Saggy still hasn't made a trip to the Library, yet ...

 

[LemmyCaution]

Indeed, Lemme, Indeed.

plus ça change plus c'est la même chose

from 2011.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7735536&postcount=7195

Saggy still hasn't made a trip to the Library, yet ...

LOL, it was a version of this list on which EtienneSC told us he'd read a whole 3 titles.

I am struggling with how someone can claim to be a revisionist - yet proudly refuse to read the works he seeks to challenge and "revise." Describing the works as Jewish lies is no explanation, because, to know what is in them, as Nick Terry pointed out, the revisionist declaring them to be Jewish lies must familiarize himself with their content - and, to critique and replace them, this revisionist must study and better that content.

Saggy expects to wave his anti-Semitic wand and have it all go away.

 

[smartcooky]

Only the Soviets liberated death camps, the US did not liberate any death camps.

Yes (and I'm not American. Nor are any of my family)

What your uncles saw has nothing to do with the holohoax, which took place at Auschwitz, Majdanek, and 4 camps that were razed before the war ended.

No.

While one of my uncles (on my father's side) was a wireless operator in the British Army 11th armoured division, who were the first to arrive at Bergen-Belsen in April 1945, the second uncle I was speaking of was on my mother's side. He was a Swiss civilian who worked for the Red Cross. He was at Auschwitz on the very day that the Soviets liberated the camp. He saw the gas chambers, the ovens, the gas pellets and the dead. He also told me that the Red Cross knew what was happening at the camps for a long time before any word got out. They were powerless top do anything about it, and the knew that if they told anyone, the Nazi's would have forbidden them access to ANY POWs in and camps, so they had to keep quiet and bide their time.

He told me this when I was still a teenager, long before it was ever officially released. His words still ring in my ears after all these years....

"We must never let the world forget what the bastards did to those people"

 

[smartcooky]

The guy who made this video, Eric Hunt, has since repudiated Holocaust denial.

Bwhwhwhwha!!! That is really funny!

Poor old Saggy doesn't even know the provenance of the material he uses to support his spurious claims!

Edited by jsfisher: 

Insult by way of username corruption is frowned upon. Don't do it.

 

[Nessie]

....
We're dealing with a hoax. .....

You are refusing to deal with the hoax you are alleging has taken place. What you can do is prove the liberation and survival of c101,000 Dutch Jews, c34,000 who went to Sobibor.

The hoax you are claiming is the incredible one of they lived on after liberation, whilst the Dutch Government was declaring them victims and missing presumed dead. Meanwhile, no historian or tracing agency has been able to find any evidence of the liberation, let alone survival of all of those people.

Then you have the problem of the Dutch Jews who did get to survive and return to their lives. Have they been fooled, or are they in with the hoax?

 

[smartcooky]

You are refusing to deal with the hoax you are alleging has taken place. What you can do is prove the liberation and survival of c101,000 Dutch Jews, c34,000 who went to Sobibor.

The hoax you are claiming is the incredible one of they lived on after liberation, whilst the Dutch Government was declaring them victims and missing presumed dead. Meanwhile, no historian or tracing agency has been able to find any evidence of the liberation, let alone survival of all of those people.

Then you have the problem of the Dutch Jews who did get to survive and return to their lives. Have they been fooled, or are they in with the hoax?

Yes, this

"Saggy, the only way that you can show it's a hoax is to prove that the c101,000 Dutch Jews survived. Name one of these c101,000 Jews and give the evidence that they survived the war. Otherwise don't bother me with your idiotic lies."

 

[LemmyCaution]

Saggy, Nessie asks a very direct, markedly simple, and perfectly relevant question. Will you continue to refuse to answer it and keep dodging, by posting recycled, ancient, off-topic, debunked stuff you pick up from anti-Semitic websites - or will you surprise me and try discussing the fate of Dutch Jews?

 

[LemmyCaution]

Bwhwhwhwha!!! That is really funny!

Poor old Saggy doesn't even know the provenance of the material he uses to support his spurious claims!

Edited by jsfisher: 

Moderated content altered to match its current version.

When he came to reject Holocaust denial, Eric Hunt published his reasoning in a piece called "End of the Line" on his "Questioning the Holocaust" webpage. That webpage is now down. On the interwebs one can find his debate about his change of mind, with FP Berg, moderated by Ryan Dawson. Saggy is really stuck in the aughts.

 

[Ivanesca]

You are refusing to deal with the hoax you are alleging has taken place. What you can do is prove the liberation and survival of c101,000 Dutch Jews, c34,000 who went to Sobibor.

The hoax you are claiming is the incredible one of they lived on after liberation, whilst the Dutch Government was declaring them victims and missing presumed dead. Meanwhile, no historian or tracing agency has been able to find any evidence of the liberation, let alone survival of all of those people.

Then you have the problem of the Dutch Jews who did get to survive and return to their lives. Have they been fooled, or are they in with the hoax?

In Addition to what Nessie wrote, Saggy will also have to deal with the fact that the Dutch government was no friend of the Jews and did not at all act like they were complicit in a "hoax" to benefit the Jews. The fact is, after the War, the Postwar dutch government extorted Jewish Holocaust survivors by demanding back taxes from them, due to their being unable to pay these taxes because they were rounded up, robbed and killed.


http://www.timesofisrael.com/amster...ms-for-unpaid-taxes-while-they-were-in-camps/

HAGUE, Netherlands — The City of Amsterdam collected more than $10 million from Holocaust survivors who were charged ground lease fees for periods they spent in hiding or in concentration camps, researchers said.

The city went after Holocaust survivors for missed payments as late as 1947 and imposed fines on them for missing payments, according to the daily, whose publication on the issue last year prompted the investigation.

The NIOD researchers estimate the city received a total of $14.5 million from fines unjustly levied against Jews during the relevant period, according to Ronny Naftaniel, a former chief negotiator for the Dutch Jewish community in restitution talks and a member of the supervisory committee of the NIOD research.

Far from "feeling sorry" for Jews, or being "controlled" by them, the Dutch Government added insult to injury by extorting them of what little they had left after most of their possessions were seized by the Nazis and Dutch collaborators. It wasn't "the Jews" who extorted gullible "gentiles" of money with the alleged "hoax": it was the other way around.

The Dutch government was not controlled by Jews and did not manufacture anything to benefit them. Like most governments at the time, they simply did not care about the Jews and had no problem extorting them like the Nazis did.

 

[Ivanesca]

In addition to my post above about the real actions of the Dutch Government, Saggy will also have to explain this. He's had loads of chances, but clearly, he would rather make stuff up instead of actually looking at the postwar policies of the West and the USSR.

Who do you think perpetuated this "hoax" and for what purpose?

Sent from my SM-N910P using Tapatalk

It wasn't the Western Allies, that's for sure. Their main priority at the time was opposing the USSR, and to this end, they needed a strong and stable Germany to serve as a bulwark against communism. For this purpose, they loosened the requirements for Denazification and allowed several prominent ex Nazis to serve in the West German government, and also the CIA and NASA (Instead of torturing them to fabricate false evidence to shame Germany). The malmedy trial defendants, Nuremberg Law architect Hans Globke, several German rocket scientists involved in slave labor and Hitler's former chief of staff (who later served as the secretary General of NATO) were examples of this. The Western Allies spent a lot off effort to protect them (instead of torturing or coercing them), i.e. Churchill personally intervened on behalf of Von Manstein, the US and West Germany blackmailed Israel to prevent them from exposing Hans Globke and other Ex Nazis in the Eichmann Trial. No American, British, or French Hoax there, that's for sure.

And it wasn't the USSR either. They were no "friend" of the Jews, and their post-war policy was "Do not Divide the dead", which was to downplay the fact that Jews were singled out by the Nazis for killing in Soviet territory. In all official reports of massacres on Russian soil, references to "Jewish Victims" were all edited to "Peaceful Soviet Citizens", changing the narrative from being a genocide specifically against Jews to Capitalist Fascists killing Communists. This was why the Soviet Indictment refers to the victims of Auschwitz as "Citizens of Various countries" instead of as Jews. Later on, the Soviets would crack down on Jewish attempts to commemorate the Babi Yar massacre as a massacre against Jews, and even forced local Jews to sign a document formally blaming "Zionism" for the Massacre. No Soviet Hoax either.

Both these policies rule out any form of Jewish "influence" or control over either the Western Allies or the USSR, meaning that Saggy's conspiracy theories about US policies are nothing but garbage.

I have told Mondial and EtienneSC about these well known policies several times but never got an answer. The truth must be too painful, since the truth is that there was never a hoax to begin with and the Actual, documented policies of the WWII victors rule out any hoax.

The answer to Jaimie McCarthy's question is really easy. The "Hoax" never happened to begin with. Every denier who tried to explain the Holocaust away as a "postwar allied conspiracy" is lying through their teeth.

 

[Saggy]

Oh my, the hoaxers seem to really have their panties in a knot. And, it's not surprising I suppose, to have read all those books and still not be able to name one Jew who was gassed by the Nazis, and give the evidence for it. They have plenty of names, but, since none were gassed, no evidence of gassing. I can hear the hoaxers now, 'details, details'.

To understand the hoax you have to understand its basis, fully explained and documented in the vid 'Introduction to the Holohoax', that begins ...

'The holocaust is a preposterous hoax unsupported by any physical evidence. It is made up of literally millions of lies, but it all rests on one 'big lie', that big lie is the focus of this video.'

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=acPfPG457cw

This vid explains the basis of the hoax for anyone interested, the 'big lie', we've all heard/seen it a million times, most recently from SmartCooky above.

 

[Ivanesca]

Oh my, the hoaxers Saggy seem to really have their his panties in a knot

Fixed that for you.

As expected, Saggy has no answer to the arguments against his garbage, and is unable to put his fantasies into the context of the actual post war policies of various nations, the nations that would've allegedly concocted his "hoax" fantasy if it were anything more than a fantasy. He can't think for himself, express his own ideas and his own words (like Mondial) and has nothing but Spam.

 

[LemmyCaution]

. . . still not be able to name one Jew who was gassed by the Nazis, and give the evidence for it. They have plenty of names, but, since none were gassed, no evidence of gassing. I can hear the hoaxers now, 'details, details'.

Still haven't bothered to reply to the link I posted, dating from 8 years ago, replying to this challenge. OK then.

To understand the hoax you have to understand its basis, fully explained and documented in the vid 'Introduction to the Holohoax', that begins ...

Still can't find anything on Dutch Jews to crib, eh?

hoax unsupported by any physical evidence.

Except all the physical evidence found and studied at camps and killing sites across eastern Europe . . .

the 'big lie', we've all heard/seen it a million times, most recently from SmartCooky above.

Again with the personal insults and calling people liars without proof or explanation.