Brexit: Now What? Part III

[The Don]

The basic position seemed to be that the EU is capitalist therefore we should leave the EU and create some kind of socialist utopia. Therefore they voted to empower the hard right to take charge and run the country into the ground and crush any protections that workers had thanks to being part of the EU while also tanking the economy that pays workers wages.

Free movement of people is a capitalist idea that lets people come here and 'take our jobs' thus suppressing wages and raising unemployment apparently.

So I guess that their expectation that the UK would continue to enjoy free trade with the EU was based on the "fact" that the EU would be so impressed with the socialist utopia they were trying to construct that they would be honour bound to allow free trade without the free movement of people ?

Sounds as rational as the Tory position that we should have free trade without the free movement of people because we're English* and our moral superiority would compel them.

* - yes I know but quite frankly the Micks, Jocks and Taffies are just an irrelevance - unless they can provide the "supply and confidence"
votes to prop up the government

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

So I guess that their expectation that the UK would continue to enjoy free trade with the EU was based on the "fact" that the EU would be so impressed with the socialist utopia they were trying to construct that they would be honour bound to allow free trade without the free movement of people ?

Sounds as rational as the Tory position that we should have free trade without the free movement of people because we're English* and our moral superiority would compel them.

* - yes I know but quite frankly the Micks, Jocks and Taffies are just an irrelevance - unless they can provide the "supply and confidence"
votes to prop up the government

I think the FRee trade thing basically comes down to swallowing the line that since the EU can make money out of trading with us they will continue to do so on whatever terms we allow them to.

Because they are capitalists and will do anything for a dollar.

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

I think the FRee trade thing basically comes down to swallowing the line that since the EU can make money out of trading with us they will continue to do so on whatever terms we allow them to.

Because they are capitalists and will do anything for a dollar.

Beyond that I think there are pockets of the left who actually see all international trade as just a tool of big business to exploit the workers anyway and couldn't really care less if it continues or not except for that nagging reality that most people's jobs probably depend on it.

 

[Belgian thought]

So I guess that their expectation that the UK would continue to enjoy free trade with the EU was based on the "fact" that the EU would be so impressed with the socialist utopia they were trying to construct that they would be honour bound to allow free trade without the free movement of people ?

Sounds as rational as the Tory position that we should have free trade without the free movement of people because we're English* and our moral superiority would compel them.

* - yes I know but quite frankly the Micks, Jocks and Taffies are just an irrelevance - unless they can provide the "supply and confidence"
votes to prop up the government

A choice between Cuba and Hong Kong

 

[Craig B]

Beyond that I think there are pockets of the left who actually see all international trade as just a tool of big business to exploit the workers anyway and couldn't really care less if it continues or not except for that nagging reality that most people's jobs probably depend on it.

As far as business is concerned, basically they want freedom to employ who they like and have open trade, and if that means they need to put up with regulation, then they will accept that. https://www.ft.com/content/ecf9bb8e-54f5-11e7-9fed-c19e2700005f

 

[Aber]

I'm not even sure what the "lefty Brexit" position is/was tbh, though I expect like the more mainstream "righty Brexit" it's actually a range of things to different groups, each potentially mutually incompatible.

Corbyn's position is like the Government's - "have cake and eat it"; except, of course it would be a much better cake, and tastier, and non-fattening, and ethical...

 

[Arcade22]

I'm not even sure what the "lefty Brexit" position is/was tbh, though I expect like the more mainstream "righty Brexit" it's actually a range of things to different groups, each potentially mutually incompatible.

I presume that "lefty Brexit" includes remaining in the EEA, allowing free movement of people, retaining the ECHR and so on which I suppose raises the question of what would it actually involve ?.

Far-left extremist and other anti-capitalist elements dislike the EU intensively because it's a bastion of globalized capitalism that opened European borders and the free trade that comes with it.

Basically: Capitalism bad. Free trade bad. Common market bad. Free movement of people bad. Globalization bad.

It's noteworthy that this often places far-left positions closer towards the far-right than to more centrist people on the left.

 

[jimbob]

Far-left extremist and other anti-capitalist elements dislike the EU intensively because it's a bastion of globalized capitalism that opened European borders and the free trade that comes with it.

Basically: Capitalism bad. Free trade bad. Common market bad. Free movement of people bad. Globalization bad.

It's noteworthy that this often places far-left positions closer towards the far-right than to more centrist people on the left.

See also the Trump and Russia thread - there are a couple of very vocal $upporter$ (at least that's how I think of one). I certainly get the impression that one is far left. The other certainly is very right.

 

[Craig B]

Far-left extremist and other anti-capitalist elements dislike the EU intensively because it's a bastion of globalized capitalism that opened European borders and the free trade that comes with it.

Basically: Capitalism bad. Free trade bad. Common market bad. Free movement of people bad. Globalization bad.

It's noteworthy that this often places far-left positions closer towards the far-right than to more centrist people on the left.

To be fair, I have to defend the anti EU leftists against one of these charges. They are hostile to most of the things you have enumerated, but their attitude towards free movement of people is very different from that of the right wing anti EU Brexiteers. The leftists tend to approve of migration, and in this city they have held demonstrations in support of refugees, and they have consistently called for an end to restrictions on immigration. This is without any question the main difference between left and right as far as the issue of the EU is concerned.

The primary motive for right wing brexitism is xenophobia; for leftist brexitism it is hostility to corporate globalisation and its concomitant economic phenomena.

 

[Garrison]

The Leave campaign were very clear that the UK could Brexit and have trading terms with the EU equal to or better than those we had as members. It's another of those promises that got scratched as soon as they won the referendum.

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

To be fair, I have to defend the anti EU leftists against one of these charges. They are hostile to most of the things you have enumerated, but their attitude towards free movement of people is very different from that of the right wing anti EU Brexiteers. The leftists tend to approve of migration, and in this city they have held demonstrations in support of refugees, and they have consistently called for an end to restrictions on immigration. This is without any question the main difference between left and right as far as the issue of the EU is concerned.

The primary motive for right wing brexitism is xenophobia; for leftist brexitism it is hostility to corporate globalisation and its concomitant economic phenomena.

The far left seem to have a mixed up view of free movement. They seem to be ok with refugees but not with economic migrants or with people simply living and working where they want to.

 

[The Don]

To be fair, I have to defend the anti EU leftists against one of these charges. They are hostile to most of the things you have enumerated, but their attitude towards free movement of people is very different from that of the right wing anti EU Brexiteers. The leftists tend to approve of migration, and in this city they have held demonstrations in support of refugees, and they have consistently called for an end to restrictions on immigration. This is without any question the main difference between left and right as far as the issue of the EU is concerned.

That may be true for some pro-Brexit people on the left but OTOH Frank Field has been very clear that he's anti- the free movement of EU nationals. He's couched it in terms of "why should someone from Milan get preferential treatment over someone from Mumbai" but still he wants a cap on the number of people coming in and that cap should be significantly lower than the current net migration figure.

The primary motive for right wing brexitism is xenophobia; for leftist brexitism it is hostility to corporate globalisation and its concomitant economic phenomena.

That's probably right, but some on the left see to view the free movement of labour as a facet of globalisation which must be curtailed for the good of the workers - don't let the bosses drive down the value of labour by importing cheap foreigners .

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

What I really don't understand are the lefties who arent xenophobic and are very pro remain still in live with Corbyn and his anti immigration pro Brexit nonsense.

 

[The Don]

What I really don't understand are the lefties who arent xenophobic and are very pro remain still in live with Corbyn and his anti immigration pro Brexit nonsense.

I suppose there are a number of ways to explain it:

• Jeremy Corbyn is the leader of the party, for better or for worse - indeed it's been tested twice. They are party loyalists and so they are going to support him for the good of the party
• For them, Jeremy Corbyn is a virtuous man who sticks to his principles. Even if they disagree with some of those principles, they still respect the man for behaving that way.
• Being anti immigration and pro-Brexit are the only flaws in an otherwise unimpeachable person so they'll look past that
• He's the least worst leader of a major party
• Cognitive dissonance

The current and past members of the Labour Party I know who are pro-immigration and anti-Brexit don't like Corbyn at all - but then again, we're on the far right of, or have left the party these days.

 

[GlennB]

I suppose there are a number of ways to explain it:

• Jeremy Corbyn is the leader of the party, for better or for worse - indeed it's been tested twice. They are party loyalists and so they are going to support him for the good of the party
• For them, Jeremy Corbyn is a virtuous man who sticks to his principles. Even if they disagree with some of those principles, they still respect the man for behaving that way.
• Being anti immigration and pro-Brexit are the only flaws in an otherwise unimpeachable person so they'll look past that
• He's the least worst leader of a major party
• Cognitive dissonance

The current and past members of the Labour Party I know who are pro-immigration and anti-Brexit don't like Corbyn at all - but then again, we're on the far right of, or have left the party these days.

In addition to the highlighted - common-or-garden pragmatism? It's going to happen anyway, so stick with the party/leader you favour?

 

[Garrison]

One of the things our merry Brexiteers have been banking on is making new trade deals, with Trump's promise of a quick deal front and centre at the moment. Turns out that might be far from simple:

Liam Fox downplays UK-US chlorinated chicken differences

Liam Fox has downplayed talk that a future US-UK trade deal after Brexit could be threatened by disagreements over chlorinated chicken imports.
The international trade secretary said the issue of whether the current UK ban on chlorine-washed poultry would be lifted was "a detail of the very end stage of one sector" of future talks.

Basically under EU regulations a variety of US foodstuffs are banned from being imported, chlorine washed chicken, hormone fed beef and unlabelled GMO produce. Now even if Trump were willing to let these slide its a safe bet that Congress won't. Naturally we have a bunch of right wing free trade advocates suggesting we should drop these regulations as a gesture of 'good will'. Oddly enough various consumer groups aren't so keen.

When he was being asked about this and other issues related to the trade talks Fox offered up this gem:

Speaking more broadly, Mr Fox said discussions about global trade too often focused around talk about the interests of producers and jobs rather than the needs of consumers as people.

Which sound very much like 'well you might all end up unemployed but you'll probably still be able to afford some nice cheap Chicken ala Chlorine'.

 

[Craig B]

That may be true for some pro-Brexit people on the left but OTOH Frank Field has been very clear that he's anti- the free movement of EU nationals.

Frank Field^WP's various opinions have little to do with "the left".

Field's political stance has been somewhat at odds with the rest of the Parliamentary Labour Party in recent years, and he has embraced more social conservative ideas. He is a member of the advisory board of the free-market think tank Reform, and of the generally conservative but also "broad church" magazine Standpoint. In May 2008, he said that Margaret Thatcher "is certainly a hero" and that "I still see Mrs T from time to time – I always call her 'Mrs T', when I talk to her."

Although there have been attempts to get him to defect to the Conservatives, they have been without success. In 2008, Frank Field was named as the 100th most-influential right-winger in the United Kingdom by the Daily Telegraph. Field supports the return of national service to tackle growing unemployment and instil "a sense of order and patriotism" in Britain's young men and women.​

 

[The Don]

Frank Field^WP's various opinions have little to do with "the left".

​

Then how about Jeremy Corbyn ?

Mass immigration from the European Union has been used to "destroy" the conditions of British workers, Jeremy Corbyn said today.

http://www.newstatesman.com/politic...-immigration-has-destroyed-conditions-british

Laying out the case for leaving the single market, Corbyn used language we have rarely heard from him - blaming immigration for harming the lives of British workers.

Looks like I was wrong (again ) and Archie Gemmill Goal was right, the Labour Party really has become anti-immigrant.​

 

[Darat]

The stance is more that capital has been able to undermine protections for labour by the free movement of labour we see in the EU. In many ways I find that hard to argue against with that when you see the appalling conditions for our generally lowest paid workers who are mainly EU immigrants.

 

[Darat]

As ever the real problem is anything but simple and its solution even more complex.