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The Trials of Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito: Part 25

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I think 13th should win myself.

I go with them in this order:

  1. “13th” (Netflix)
  2. “A House Divided (Vice Special Report)” (HBO)
  3. “L.A. Burning: The Riots 25 Years Later” (A&E)
  4. “Amanda Knox” (Netflix)
  5. “The Beatles: Eight Days a Week – The Touring Years” (Hulu)
 
Apologies in advance if this is already dealt with. However, there is such a thing as a certificate of exoneration, as I understand you guys have been disputing this.

See (d) - this is likely the similar reasoning of the Florence Court for denying Raffy any compensation:

d) The petition shall state facts in sufficient detail to permit the court to find that the petitioner is likely to succeed at trial in proving that the petitioner is innocent of the offenses charged in the indictment or information or his or her acts or omissions charged in the indictment or information did not constitute a felony or misdemeanor against the State of Illinois, and the petitioner did not by his or her own conduct voluntarily cause or bring about his or her conviction.  The petition shall be verified by the petitioner.
 
Apologies in advance if this is already dealt with. However, there is such a thing as a certificate of exoneration, as I understand you guys have been disputing this.

See (d) - this is likely the similar reasoning of the Florence Court for denying Raffy any compensation:

From your link;

Illinois Statutes Chapter 735. Civil Procedure § 5/2-702. Petition for a certificate of innocence that the petitioner was innocent of all offenses for which he or she was incarcerated

Another Vixen lie
 
From your link;

Illinois Statutes Chapter 735. Civil Procedure § 5/2-702. Petition for a certificate of innocence that the petitioner was innocent of all offenses for which he or she was incarcerated

Another Vixen lie

It's unclear why one even needs such a certificate. Should not a record of the court outcome be enough?

It's not as if one's innocence is in legal doubt even without a laminated card in your wallet.....
 
It's unclear why one even needs such a certificate. Should not a record of the court outcome be enough?

It's not as if one's innocence is in legal doubt even without a laminated card in your wallet.....

In the US, for some states, the "certificate of innocence" is a way to document that a person released from prison was wrongfully convicted and should receive compensation. According to the introductory information in the Illinois statute, it was a replacement or supplement to an earlier procedure requiring a pardon from the governor. Here is an excerpt:

"§ 2-702.  Petition for a certificate of innocence that the petitioner was innocent of all offenses for which he or she was incarcerated.

(a) The General Assembly finds and declares that innocent persons who have been wrongly convicted of crimes in Illinois and subsequently imprisoned have been frustrated in seeking legal redress due to a variety of substantive and technical obstacles in the law and that such persons should have an available avenue to obtain a finding of innocence so that they may obtain relief through a petition in the Court of Claims.  The General Assembly further finds misleading the current legal nomenclature which compels an innocent person to seek a pardon for being wrongfully incarcerated. ...."

See, for example:

http://codes.findlaw.com/il/chapter-735-civil-procedure/il-st-sect-735-5-2-702.html
 
Good grief. Another epic fail of an argument from the pro-guilt PoV.

Well, I say "good grief", but obviously at this point I'm very far from surprised.......
 
Good grief. Another epic fail of an argument from the pro-guilt PoV.

Well, I say "good grief", but obviously at this point I'm very far from surprised.......

I am not sure there was an argument from the PGP POV. What does an Illinois state law have to do with an Italian law, which if anything must be compared to the Italian Constitution and the European Convention on Human Rights and ECHR case law?
 
From your link;

Illinois Statutes Chapter 735. Civil Procedure § 5/2-702. Petition for a certificate of innocence that the petitioner was innocent of all offenses for which he or she was incarcerated

Another Vixen lie

As far as Illinois is concerned, Vixen was for all intents and purposes correct, not lying at all. She had just conflated the terms "exonerated" and "innocence".

There probably is a rarefied distinction between the terms in legalese, but for us folks up here in the cheap seats they are virtually the same in ordinary parlance.

Apparently Knox is speaking at yet another bar association meeting, this time in Southern California with another noted exoneree on the 27th. One could perhaps add that two innocent people are speaking to lawyers without mangling the meaning of the words in plain speech.
 
There is no doubt that the Italian law, CPP Article 314.1, states, in translation:

"Whoever is dismissed by a final judgment because the criminal act did not occur, or they did not commit it or the act does not constitute an offence or it is not deemed an offence by law, is entitled to equitable compensation for the precautionary detention he served, if he did not cause or contributed to cause it intentionally or by gross negligence."
 
As far as Illinois is concerned, Vixen was for all intents and purposes correct, not lying at all. She had just conflated the terms "exonerated" and "innocence".

There probably is a rarefied distinction between the terms in legalese, but for us folks up here in the cheap seats they are virtually the same in ordinary parlance.

Apparently Knox is speaking at yet another bar association meeting, this time in Southern California with another noted exoneree on the 27th. One could perhaps add that two innocent people are speaking to lawyers without mangling the meaning of the words in plain speech.

Lying? Maybe not technically. But intentionally misleading? I think so. Whether or not Knox can claim to be an "exoneree" has been a topic of dispute here. Vixen claimed that she cannot as she was never "exonerated" despite being found "not guilty" and that she "did not commit the act" by M/B. She also made this false statement:

The verdict was 'annulled'. The US equivalent appears to be 'vacated'.

In the USA it is technically a lie to claim you are 'exonerated' (as Sunny Jacobs does and Knox) unless you have a certificate saying so.

The link she provided clearly says "certificate of innocence" but Vixen chose to substitute that with "exoneration". I doubt that was unintentional.
 
There is no doubt that the Italian law, CPP Article 314.1, states, in translation:

"Whoever is dismissed by a final judgment because the criminal act did not occur, or they did not commit it or the act does not constitute an offence or it is not deemed an offence by law, is entitled to equitable compensation for the precautionary detention he served, if he did not cause or contributed to cause it intentionally or by gross negligence."

Should intent to be proven? Or righteous belief is enough to rubber stamp the actions or statements as intentional, e.g., as lies, whenever convenient?
 
Should intent to be proven? Or righteous belief is enough to rubber stamp the actions or statements as intentional, e.g., as lies, whenever convenient?


Yes, intent would need to be proven on the "he caused or contributed to cause it intentionally or by gross negligence" part.

But in Sollecito's case, the courts (up to and including the SC) appear to have adopted a sleight-of-hand "argument" by incorporating the (settled) judgement from Knox's criminal slander conviction - a conviction for an entirely separate crime committed (until the ECHR demands remedy, that is...) by an entirely different person.

The leger-de-main goes something like this:

1) Knox's criminal slander verdict decrees that she was present at the cottage at around the time of the murder* (this was also improperly incorporated into the Marasca SC verdict, but that's another matter.....)

2) Therefore Sollecito must, de facto, have lied to the police when - in his initial interviews (i.e. prior to 5th November) - he "claimed"** that Knox and he were together in his apartment all evening/night of the murder

3) In addition, Sollecito tried to "mislead" police further in his 5th/6th November interrogation.

4) Therefore, it's an incontrovertible truth that Sollecito showed culpable intent in his participation in the investigation***


* though god knows how: the courts in this case chose to rule that Knox was lying in saying she met Lumumba and took him to the cottage etc, but at the same time that Knox was telling the truth about having gore to the cottage.

** of course this was actually the factual truth

*** it seems not to matter one iota that Sollecito never tried to mislead in respect of his OWN movements etc (i.e. matters which could have led to his incarceration for four years.....). The Italian criminal justice system is not fit for purpose.
 
The link she provided clearly says "certificate of innocence" but Vixen chose to substitute that with "exoneration". I doubt that was unintentional.

I'll go with misleading...... but there's a nuance that everyone is missing here.

Both Knox and Sollecito spent time in prison, but that time (one year for Knox, four years for Sollecito) was solely because of precautionary detention.

Neither the Massei nor the Nencini convictions count, not until Cassation confirms them which in this case it did not.

This is different than in the US where a lower court conviction is a conviction, and any jail time is because if guilt. If a person is subsequently released on appeal because the appeals court reverses the conviction, then in the US that person could be said to be both innocent and exonerated.

As it relates to the murder, under Italian law the pair had never been convicted, not really. Nor did the Hellmann acquittal count as an acquittal, not until Cassation signed off on it.

No one here knows, not really, if Cassation's 2015 annulling of Nencini was a de jure agreement or reinstatement of Hellmann's acquittal - where is Grinder when you need him?

So "exonerated" has the nuance to it that someone had first been legally an definitively convicted of murder. Neither Sollecito nor Knox had been, indeed, in the eyes of Italian law they'd been innocent throughout without interruption.

However, there is also a de facto sense of "exonerated". In the US and Canada that term is perhaps used that way, towards Knox, even among 100s of lawyers as she's referred to as such in multiple bar associations and law schools in two countries.

Someone has to keep Grinder's spirit alive! Vixen may have been purposely misleading, but she was not entirely wrong.
 
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I'll go with misleading...... but there's a nuance that everyone is missing here.

Both Knox and Sollecito spent time in prison, but that time (one year for Knox, four years for Sollecito) was solely because of precautionary detention.

Neither the Massei nor the Nencini convictions count, not until Cassation confirms them which in this case it did not.

This is different than in the US where a lower court conviction is a conviction, and any jail time is because if guilt. If a person is subsequently released on appeal because the appeals court reverses the conviction, then in the US that person could be said to be both innocent and exonerated.

As it relates to the murder, under Italian law the pair had never been convicted, not really. Nor did the Hellmann acquittal count as an acquittal, not until Cassation signed off on it.

No one here knows, not really, if Cassation's 2015 annulling of Nencini was a de jure agreement or reinstatement of Hellmann's acquittal - where is Grinder when you need him?

So "exonerated" has the nuance to it that someone had first been legally an definitively convicted of murder. Neither Sollecito nor Knox had been, indeed, in the eyes of Italian law they'd been innocent throughout without interruption.

However, there is also a de facto sense of "exonerated". In the US and Canada that term is perhaps used that way, towards Knox, even among 100s of lawyers as she's referred to as such in multiple bar associations and law schools in two countries.

Someone has to keep Grinder's spirit alive! Vixen may have been purposely misleading, but she was not entirely wrong.

Misleading, yes, regarding "innocence" vs "exoneration". But entirely wrong when she claimed this:

"In the USA it is technically a lie to claim you are 'exonerated' (as Sunny Jacobs does and Knox) unless you have a certificate saying so." No one has to have a certificate to be called an exoneree.

One does not need a "certificate" to be exonerated.
 
Misleading, yes, regarding "innocence" vs "exoneration". But entirely wrong when she claimed this:

"In the USA it is technically a lie to claim you are 'exonerated' (as Sunny Jacobs does and Knox) unless you have a certificate saying so." No one has to have a certificate to be called an exoneree.

One does not need a "certificate" to be exonerated.

Vixen just makes stuff up.

Or she reads it on Peter Quennell's TJMK site and passes it on. In that case, Quennell just made it up.
 
I'll go with misleading...... but there's a nuance that everyone is missing here.

Both Knox and Sollecito spent time in prison, but that time (one year for Knox, four years for Sollecito) was solely because of precautionary detention.

Neither the Massei nor the Nencini convictions count, not until Cassation confirms them which in this case it did not.

This is different than in the US where a lower court conviction is a conviction, and any jail time is because if guilt. If a person is subsequently released on appeal because the appeals court reverses the conviction, then in the US that person could be said to be both innocent and exonerated.

As it relates to the murder, under Italian law the pair had never been convicted, not really. Nor did the Hellmann acquittal count as an acquittal, not until Cassation signed off on it.

No one here knows, not really, if Cassation's 2015 annulling of Nencini was a de jure agreement or reinstatement of Hellmann's acquittal - where is Grinder when you need him?

So "exonerated" has the nuance to it that someone had first been legally an definitively convicted of murder. Neither Sollecito nor Knox had been, indeed, in the eyes of Italian law they'd been innocent throughout without interruption.

However, there is also a de facto sense of "exonerated". In the US and Canada that term is perhaps used that way, towards Knox, even among 100s of lawyers as she's referred to as such in multiple bar associations and law schools in two countries.

Someone has to keep Grinder's spirit alive! Vixen may have been purposely misleading, but she was not entirely wrong.

If the PGP argument is purely semantic, about the meaning of "exonerated", it is not worth pursuing. The PGP use an idiosyncratic definition of "exonerated" and there is no benefit in debating the validity of their agenda-based definitions. As you and others have pointed out, according to the Italian Constitution, Knox and Sollecito were never finally convicted of Kercher's murder/rape, and thus never lost the presumption of innocence for those charges under Italian law.

The real legal question regarding Raffaele Sollecito's request for compensation, and the final denial thereof by the Italian judicial system, is whether that denial was reasonable, fair and legal under the Italian Constitution and the European Convention of Human Rights (including ECHR case law). Significant issues relating to that include the fairness or lack of fairness (arbitrariness) of the evaluation of evidence by the Italian courts deciding on compensation, and the legality under Italian and international law (the Convention and ECHR case law) of Sollecito's arrest and detention.
 
From your link;

Illinois Statutes Chapter 735. Civil Procedure § 5/2-702. Petition for a certificate of innocence that the petitioner was innocent of all offenses for which he or she was incarcerated

Another Vixen lie

In this context innocent/exonerated are interchangeable. 'Exonerated' is the legal term for 'proven innocent'.
 
In this context innocent/exonerated are interchangeable. 'Exonerated' is the legal term for 'proven innocent'.

The legal terms used in court are convict/guilty or acquit/not guilty. A court will never declare someone "exonerated" if/when they are found not guilty. Further, to be exonerated means to be found innocent after previously having been found, or assumed to have been, guilty. If someone is indicted for a crime, goes to trial and is acquitted, it would not be proper to consider them an exoneree as they were never previously considered guilty.

But in truth none of that really matters. The real point here is you made the claim one can not be considered an exoneree unless they have a "Certificate of Exoneration". Forgetting for a moment the incorrect usage of exoneration in the name of this State of Illinois certificate, you offered no evidence to suggest this certificate was required in order to be considered an exoneree. And certainly what the State of Illinois does has no bearing on someone would was exonerated of a crime in Italy.
 
It's unclear why one even needs such a certificate. Should not a record of the court outcome be enough?

It's not as if one's innocence is in legal doubt even without a laminated card in your wallet.....

It's vital if you want your criminal record wiped and perhaps apply for compensation.

None of the following are exonerated:

Amanda Knox
Raffaele Sollecito
Damian Echols
Ryan Ferguson
SunnyHorrendous Jacobs

The latter three have merely had their convictions 'vacated' and the former two 'annulled'.
 
In this context innocent/exonerated are interchangeable. 'Exonerated' is the legal term for 'proven innocent'.

Sorry but Amanda Knox was already declared "totally innocent" by the most respected person in the world, Donald John Trump, 45th President of the United States of America.
 
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