General Holocaust denial discussion Part III

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Now, let's ask ourselves the question that troubles the best minds of the EU, is 'the holohoax fundamentally different from other experiences of state terror and mass extermination'? Answer: yes, the holohoax is fundamentally different from examples of other state sponsored terror save one, the only extensively studied historical event comparable to the holohoax is the Salem witch trials.

And now ..... let's watch the mice scurry :)

Um, what?
 
Yes, Hasbro. A toy company. Aren't employees of Hasbro known as "hasbara"?
 
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According to Saggy. Who refuses to say how he knows about this.

Strangely I happen to be a long time share holder in that company - I wonder how he knew that?

Maybe he is the hidden hand that runs the world!!!!

We can blame him for everything.
 
[qimg]https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/25/Islam_in_Europe-2010.svg/1024px-Islam_in_Europe-2010.svg.png[/qimg]

You can find the percentages that go with those colors here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_in_Europe

Of course this map deals with is Islam as the religion and says nothing about race. However, I've been to Syria and I worked in the region for 20+ years and employed people from all these countries. Most Muslim's from the ME are white. This excludes the majority of Egyptians, those that have African parentage, etc.

It seems Howdy is being a bit panicky.
I guess that is because most people from the Middle East are white. Who panicky? Me? Me no panicky. I'm a Christian from Canada and like most Christians from Canada, I'm Black.
 
Last time was about two years ago and I only went to France. So I haven't done a general survey of the whole continent for about a decade. Is it already a brown skinned Islamic caliphate?
Not even Sweden. Surprised to learn that despite your only having visited France some time ago you've been left in charge of ethnic reordering in Europe - or at least sending out the jeremiads.
 
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Strangely I happen to be a long time share holder in that company - I wonder how he knew that?

Maybe he is the hidden hand that runs the world!!!!

We can blame him for everything.
It is shocking. I had thought our secret was well hidden.
 
Nah, you're thinking of Hanna-Barbera.

I always thought Yogi might have been jewish.

No it was that Park Ranger guy. I think his name was Moshe Green, aka 'Ranger Smith' yeah right!

RangerSmith.png


Note the evil camouflaged Zionist symbol on his sleeve!!!
 
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Uh do NOT tell Saggy, Hasbro was of course founded by three brothers, Herman, Hillel and Henry Hassenfeld - the Hass bros. GI Joe, the Care Bears, and My Little Pony . . . aha, that's us . . . working behind the scenes, pulling wires, subverting innocent consumers, hasbara-ing for Hasbro and the larger cause.
 
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I don't understand the tu quoque issue to have been so clear cut nor that the Dönitz ruling signaled acceptance of such a defense. In fact, I think that the principle of denying the tu quoque was, if a bit tortuously, maintained in the Dönitz judgment.

First, legal commentators seem generally to concur that tu quoque was not a permitted defense at the IMT.

For example, just two examples: (1) Robert Cryer, Håkan Friman, Darryl Robinson, & Elizabeth Wilmshurst, “the defense was not permitted to raise the issue of crimes committed by the Allies.” (An Introduction to International Criminal Law and Procedure, 2007) (2) Susan Mary Twist, for example, wrote, “the IMT ruled the defence of tu quoque inadmissible.” (“Retrospectivity at Nuremberg: The Nature and Limits of a Schmittian Analysis” (PhD dissertation, University of Central Lancashire, 2012)

However, the commentators also recognize the issue of submarine warfare and Dönitz’s defense in that matter.

Different defenses were raised in this matter at the IMT. Defense attorney Servatius, for example, argued that the orders were not illegal because the Hague Convention was obsolete. (Conot, Justice at Nuremberg, 1983, 2009, p 325)

The strongest case, however, was argued by defense attorney Kranzbühler who put it like this (IMT, Blue Series, v VIII, p 549):
In other words, Kranzbühler’s argument was that no one broke international law, not that everyone violated the law. The gray area is that Kranzbühler got to this proposition via the reality that everyone acted the same way. Persico describes Kranzbühler’s interrogatory as ingenious (Nuremberg: Infamy on Trial, 1994, p 338).

I understand Kranzbühler’s plea to be different to the case in which everyone is driving over the speed limit and the driver who gets pulled over pleads “they did it too" meaning that other drivers were also violating the speed limit. It is more like the driver who was singled out arguing that there was no speed limit because the limit didn't apply in the circumstances and thus everyone was within his or her rights to drive at fast speeds through the zone.

Conot makes this explicit in discussing Nimitz’s testimony: “Kranzbühler thus won his point. . . .[H]e had obtained the affirmation that American submarine practices had paralleled the Germans . . . and that, therefore, in practice, if not strictly in theory, German naval warfare had been ‘legal.’” 0p 417) Telford Taylor was of the same view as Conot, writing in The Anatomy of the Nuremberg Trials (1993, 2013) that Kranzbühler had “turned from the tu quoque to an issue of the interpretation of the London Agreement of 1936,” namely the technical definition of merchant vessels under that agreement (p 400).

The tribunal’s acceptance of Kranzbühler’s interrogatory spoke of its being “appropriate to construe the international law of submarine warfare by determining what actions were taken by the powers during the war.” (p 411) Taylor also wrote that the questions later put to Nimitz didn’t go to either the London Agreement or the definition of merchant ship, the very points on which Kranzbühler’s argument relied. (p 409)

All this, as Taylor noted, was not so clear as Kranzbühler’s argument but was not really the tribunal's admitting a tu quoque pleading either. Taylor’s opinion on the matter? “[T]he line between tu quoque and the meaning of ‘merchant ship’ in the London Charter was a very thin one” (p 409), but Nimitz’s testimony “had supported . . . Kranzbühler’s argument that armed merchant ships were not ‘merchant vessels’ within the meaning and protection of the 1939 Agreement . . .” (p 483)



Apologies for the delay in responding. IANAL, but my understanding is that the essence of tu quoque is "if I am guilty, you are guilty." So I'm not clear on how "you are not guilty, therefore I am not guilty" isn't tu quoque.
 
The essence of the tu quoque offense is that because you broke the law, you can't charge me with the same offense. Kranzbühler's argument, accepted by the IMT, was different to this: he argued that there was no law against the naval actions in question, partly basing his pleading on the technical definition of merchant ship in the law. In his telling, neither side broke the law because both committed actions permitted under the law, whereas in a tu quoque pleading he would have argued that both sides broke the law, but no matter, because "you did it, too."

Kranzbühler's clever argument was not that the Allies' similar actions made the acts legal (or put them beyond the court's reach) - as in a tu quoque argument - but that the actions were never illegal in the first place. Kranzbühler thus didn't charge the Allies with lawbreaking equal to that of the Germans'; rather, he said that the Germans' actions weren't lawbreaking either.

By accepting this argument, the tribunal didn't technically do away with its general rejection of the tu quoque defense.
 
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