• Quick note - the problem with Youtube videos not embedding on the forum appears to have been fixed, thanks to ZiprHead. If you do still see problems let me know.

The Growth of the UFO Myth

... it took not just a lot of thinking, but a very specific state organization in Greece, to come up with formal logic ... their trials were just a matter of who can talk the judges into seeing things his way, and there really were no standards of evidence or even common sense. You could end up with stuff like more people voting that Socrates deserves to die for his offense, than had voted that there was an offense in the first place, just because he epically failed that stage of his talking to them.
The questions of guilt and of the sentence were voted on separately, so there is no infringement of common sense here.
After the vote on Socrates' guilt, Socrates and his prosecutor suggested alternative sentences. Socrates, after expressing his surprise of the little amount he needed to have been found innocent, jokingly suggested free meals at the Prytaneum, a particular honor held for city benefactors and winners at the Olympic Games, then offered to pay a fine of 100 drachmae, which was a fifth of his property and a testament to Socrates' poverty. Finally he settled on the sum of 3000 drachmae, put forward by Plato, Crito, Critobulus, and Apollodorus, who guaranteed the payment. His prosecutor proposed the death penalty.​
In my understanding the jurors were further constrained by a law that obliged them to impose only one or the other of the proposed sanctions, without permitting them to suggest other alternatives. The first suggestion by Socrates - that he be honoured by the city - may have seemed flippant (rather than merely illogical) to the jurors, and may have persuaded some of them to impose the prosecution's suggested sanction, even if they had voted against guilt in the previous deliberation. There is nothing unreasonable about that. Socrates had been found guilty.
 
Oh, I've read the apologia too. I even posted the same you did a couple of times on this forum. Still, it's as epic a fail as it possibly gets that people who thought he was innocent voted that he should die, rather than at least accept his fine proposal. I mean, if you think the guy is innocent, at least vote for the lesser punishment. But yeah, Socrates obviously rolled one hell of a critical failure that day :p

Still, nevertheless, the development of logic is believed by many to have been essentially in response to the earlier development of whole schools of sophistry. Even if Socrates did talk himself into a corner fair and square, essentially it makes a case that you'd want to think up a system where you don't end up dead just because you put your foot in your mouth. And hence it took a very specific state organization for it to matter that much.
 
Last edited:
I used to be into the UFO scene.

Suddenly the UFO folks had their excuse for no physical evidence.


This F-16 radar data proves otherwise. What aircraft can mimic the maneuvers depicted from the following F-16 radar data?
Answer: No aircraft in existence can even come close to the performance levels depicted in the following radar data.
Belgian Air Force Report

8. At 00.05 2 F16 were scrambled from BEAUVECHAIN airbase and guided towards the radar contacts. A total of 9 interception attempts have been made. At 6 occasions the pilots could establish a lock-on with their air interception radar. Lock-on distances varied between 5 and 8 NM. On all occasions targets varied speed and altitude very quickly and break-locks occurred after 10 to 60 seconds. Speeds varied between 150 and 1010 kts.

*********************************************************

Seconds after Heading Speed Altitude

lock-on (degrees) (knots) (feet)

00 200 150 7000

01 200 150 7000

02 200 150 7000

03 200 150 7000

04 sharp 200 acceleration 150 6000

05 turn 270 = 22 g 560 6000

06 270 560 6000

07 270 570 6000

08 270 560 7000

09 270 550 7000

10 210 560 9000

11 210 570 10000

12 210 560 11000

13 210 570 10000

14 270 770 7000

15 270 770 6000

16 270 780 6000

17 270 790 5000

18 290 1010 4000

19 290 1000 3000

20 290 990 2000

21 290 990 1000

22 300 990 0000

22.5 300 980 0000 Break lock

1990hud1.jpg
 
Last edited:
"Life of the Gaps"

It took modern human less than a century to go from the Wright Brother at Kitty Hawk, to Armstrong stepping on the Moon. Humanity has existed, as we are today, for well over 10,000 years, is it that much of a leap to believe other humans did not achieve flight?

Do you think primitive tribal societies today see our airplanes and satellites as 'alien' necessarily? God-like, perhaps?

I think UFO's are real, but are not necessarily alien...most likely they are other earthlings, with technology we don't understand...
 
...No aircraft in existence can even come close to the performance levels depicted in the following radar data.

There was a massive dump of data over a decade ago, by the U.S. government. I forget when or what the official disclosure was called, but it was thousands of document, many pages of which were blacked-out.

I mined for a few days...looked at hundreds of pages...eventually I found and printed several copies of a report from a watch group, that detailed the accounts of this group that witnessed the radar images of a 'fast-moving object' that exceeded 23,000 mph'...'then speedup to 38,000 mph'...maybe faster. I donated my copies to the UFO museum in Roswell. lol
 
There was a massive dump of data over a decade ago, by the U.S. government. I forget when or what the official disclosure was called, but it was thousands of document, many pages of which were blacked-out.

I mined for a few days...looked at hundreds of pages...eventually I found and printed several copies of a report from a watch group, that detailed the accounts of this group that witnessed the radar images of a 'fast-moving object' that exceeded 23,000 mph'...'then speedup to 38,000 mph'...maybe faster. I donated my copies to the UFO museum in Roswell. lol


Our aircraft were seriously outmatched. Here is an example.


1952FIG2.gif


TIME Magazine - August 4, 1952

SCIENCE: Blips on the Scopes

Air traffic was light at Washington Airport one midnight last week, and the radar scope of the Civil Aeronautics Authority was almost clear. At 12:40 a.m. a group of bright blips showed. The operator estimated that they were about 15 miles southwest of Washington. Then the blips disappeared abruptly and reappeared a few seconds later over northeast Washington. The operator called his boss, Senior Controller Harry Barnes, 39, a graduate of the Buffalo Technical Institute who has worked for the CAA as an electronics expert since 1941. The operator told Barnes: "Here are some flying saucers for you."

Barnes laughed at first, but the blips kept popping up all over the scope. They sometimes hovered, sometimes flew slowly and sometimes incredibly fast. Technicians checked the radar; it was in good working order. Over the White House. Barnes began to worry when he saw the blips apparently flying over the White House and other prohibited areas. He called the airport control tower. Sure enough, its radar showed the strange blips too. When the towermen measured the speed of a fast blip, they found that it had flown for eight miles at 7,200 m.p.h.


July 27: 0020 EDT.

[*] F-94 jet interceptors scrambled from New Castle AFB, Del., to investigate Washington, D.C., radar- UFOs. One F-94 pilot made visual contact and appeared to be gaining on target; both F-94 and UFO were observed on radar and "appeared to be travelling at the same approximate speed." When the F-94 pilot tried to overtake the UFO, it disappeared visually and on radar. The pilot remarked about the "incredible speed of the object." (AFOSI.)

AFOSI - Air Force Office of Special Investigations report, from Project Blue Book files, National Archives microfilm collection.
 
Last edited:
Problem with the above story is that nothing at all known to man could have maneuvered like these blips supposedly did, which to me would indicate a problem with the equipment, or misunderstanding the data.

They say they checked out the equipment, but that doesn't mean a problem was missed. Going by what we know about physics, there is no way anything in the known universe could behave in such a way. Why assume that that's what happened?

I would invoke Occam's Razor at this point and ask which is more likely - that something broke the laws of physics, or that there is a more mundane explanation.

When I read a story like that, especially one that is that old, I have to ask myself:

- is anyone wrong?
- is anyone lying?
- what do we understand scientifically today that we didn't back then, and how could that lack of knowledge account for their findings?
- look at how bad current reporting is and ask if there were journalists back then who were just as bad, or biased, or just plain stupid.
- people think that God is a thing.
 
Last edited:
Problem with the above story is that nothing at all known to man could have maneuvered like these blips supposedly did, which to me would indicate a problem with the equipment, or misunderstanding the data.


The radar equipment was checked and found to be operating normally, which was confirmed by the fact that the maneuvers of the blips on radar were confirmed by pilots in the sky. In other words, pilot visual reports confirmed the maneuvers of what ground-base radars were tracking. At Andrews AFB, ground-based observations also confirmed the UFO radar blips.

To sum it up, radar contacts were confirmed by aerial and ground-based visual observations.

What Radar Tells About Flying Saucers

1952 Washington D.C. Incidents

Captain Pierman, flying a Capital airliner, had just taken off from Washington. In a few moments he radioed back that he saw a bright light where the scope showed one of the objects. At the very instant he called the Center, the object raced off at terrific speed.

Tower operators Howard Cocklin and Joe Zacko both reported the strange blips on their scope, and in the same position. So did Air Force radar men at Andrews Air Force Base, which uses an A.S.R. set. Not only that, visual observers at both points could see mysterious lights moving in the sky.

"That means it must have raced out of our beam between ten second sweeps. It could have done this in one of two ways: First, it could make a steep climb at terrific speed, so that in ten seconds it would be above the vertical area swept by our M.E.W. set. [The beam's average altitude, at its highest point, is from 35,000 to 40,000 feet, far out, but it is much less near the airport. At 30 miles, it is about 8,500 feet, sloping to 1,200 at three miles.] Second, it could race horizontally off our 34 mile scope within ten seconds."

Considering the objects' relative position, just before they vanished, this last would require a speed of from 5,000 to 7,000 m.p.h. At the time, this seemed unbelievable to Barnes and the other controllers. But Captain Pierman later confirmed the objects' tremendous speed.
Of four pilots who saw the fast moving lights, one was flying a jet interceptor. This pilot, Lieutenant William L. Patterson, on seeing four lights, went after one at full throttle.

"I was at my top speed," he said on landing, "but I couldn't close in." His plane's maximum speed was better than 600 m.p.h.

1952_007.jpg


http://www.nicap.org/whatradar.htm

Since the Washington D.C. UFO incidents were radar/visual confirmation incidents, radar malfunctions did not play a role in what was depicted on the radar screens and remember, radars from different locations confirmed the visual accounts on the ground and in the sky.

Sometimes, a group of those UFOs would race across Washington whenever an airliner took off from an airport and surround that aircraft and that indicates intelligence.
 
Last edited:
I don't think alien visitation is a myth, however, not every unidentified flying object in our atmosphere is an alien.
 
I don't think alien visitation is a myth, however, not every unidentified flying object in our atmosphere is an alien.


I totally agree and I am on the record for stating that the majority of UFO sightings can be explained in down-to-earth terms.
 
The big thing here are the lights off the coast of SC at Myrtle Beach, very strange, but I'm thinking they are some kind of earth lights related to the fault lines off the coast. No one knows for certain what causes them.
 
Project Mogul.

HA HA HA.


I often find it amusing of the Air Force's attempt to paint the Roswell incident as a misidentification of a Project Mogul balloon train #4 considering the Air Force knew there was no such flight on June 4, 1947.

I also find it amusing that the Air Force never revealed that Charles B. Moore, head of Project Mogul, and his balloon teams, reported tracking flying saucers over New Mexico.

And, I also find it amusing that the Air Force never revealed that civilians have recovered Project Mogul balloons for rewards after they added their data input on questionnaires attached to Project Mogul balloons and that is another clear indication that Project Mogul balloons were not classified at all.
 
Problem with the above story is that nothing at all known to man could have maneuvered like these blips supposedly did, which to me would indicate a problem with the equipment, or misunderstanding the data.
Although no physical object we know of can move so fast or maneuver so drastically, light beams can. They are unconstrained by gravity or inertia.

So whenever you hear about stuff like this, consider that it might not be an actual object, but a spot of light. From a distance, with weather and other factors, it may be difficult or impossible to tell the difference. Is that something 30 miles away, or a reflection inside the cockpit?

Confirmed by radar? How do you know the visual object is the same object as the radar object? Do you know how many things can masquerade as a blip on a radar screen, most of which are ignored as insignificant? If no UFO report was received, would the radar image be considered worthy of report or just more typical "image clutter"?
 
Confirmed by radar? How do you know the visual object is the same object as the radar object? Do you know how many things can masquerade as a blip on a radar screen, most of which are ignored as insignificant? If no UFO report was received, would the radar image be considered worthy of report or just more typical "image clutter"?


It's all very simple for me to understand because I have been a pilot for 48 years, but in many cases, the aircraft's own radar and even airborne ELINT systems not only coincided with aircrew visual accounts at the same reference point in the sky, but also confirmed the exact location reference as ground-based radar, in some cases, multiple dissimilar ground-based radars as confirmed by ground-based observations.
 
Last edited:
Is there something the government is not telling its citizens about UFOs?

FireFighters UFO Manual (UFO)

Subject: Firefighters FEMA UFO training manual

Adverse Potential Of UFOS

Regardless of its past evaluations, the Air Force could be wrong about a number of things. "It can't even guess within a couple of billion dollars what one of its planes is going to cost; maybe, despite the skepticism of the scientists and other investigators, the UFOs sent from other planets do exist and have visited earth."(60) And maybe they have exhibited some destructive effects, whether or not intentionally in every instance, which we need to consider when drafting a plan for coping with an emergency situation where UFOs are involved. Some of these documented effects are as follows.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

UFO Hazards

The two principal hazards noted with relation to UFOs have been attributed to powerful electrical fields which they can project in a general or localized area and the psychological effects they have produced on the general populace or individual contacts.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Force Field Impact


The disruption of air and ground travel has often been reported in the presence of UFOs. The ignition systems of auto and aircraft engines have apparently been affected by energized force fields to such an extent as to stop their operation; the headlights and radios have also ceased to function. Here are a couple of examples. In Buenos Aires, on March 29, 1978, "A strange force shut off their engine and headlights of their Citroen CG, lifted it 15 feet off the road, then set it down a minute later and 75 miles to the north." The driver had noticed a yellow and violet light shining in his rear view mirror while driving the last leg of a long stock car race, and he realized that it was approaching too fast to be a competitor. A month later a Colombian bank manager and a navy officer had their car headlights go off when buzzed by a UFO, with the navy man suffering temporary paralysis. Other South American countries in which similar actions were reported around that time included Argentina, Chile, Peru, and Uruguay.(61)

These effects have also been noted to influence the controls and instruments of aircraft, e.g., the pilot of a Piper PH-24 reported that his controls became inoperable when he was approached by three disk-shaped objects, 10 to 12 feet in diameter, over Mexico City on May 3,1975.(62) Similar cases have been reported by military pilots, illustrated by the classic case of the near mid-air collision of an army helicopter with a UFO on October 18, 1973, over Ohio, where not only did both the UHF and VHF radio wave- lengths go dead temporarily, but the downward movement of the helicopter with its four occupants was levitated upward by a green beam from the UFO in time to prevent its crash into the ground.(63)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Communications Disruption

In addition to the impedance of radio transmissions and reception, such as that described in the preceding incident, telephone interference has occurred, illustrated by the chagrin of President Lyndon Johnson in having his conversation from the Texas White House cut off while talking to assistants in Washington, D.C.(64) The ability to render inoperable all electronic forms of communications, including those that control the launching of defense weapons systems, has been considered within the range of UFO capability. Whether this could extend to the erasing of recorded computer data such as bank records, personnel data, FBI, CIA, and NSA files, along with critical information of every kind, is not beyond the realm of possibility.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Regional Power Blackouts


It has long been suspected that UFOs have the capability of blacking out a city, state, or many states by exerting a force field sufficient to overload the circuits of public and private utility installations. "Few things are more disturbing than to be plunged into pitch darkness without warning; it is dangerous for masses of people. It paralyzes cities, blocks highways, stops trains, leaves elevators suspended between floors. In general it simply plays hell with the modern way of life."(65) You would think that the power companies would have achieved sufficient reliability in their high tech systems that a mass failure such as that which blacked out New York and New England in 1965 would never happen--but it did. Although, as we have mentioned before, it was known that UFO activity was associated with disturbances with compasses. instruments, ignition systems, radios, etc., it was inconceivable that it could also interfere with generation and distribution of electrical power. Such a connection was also inferred in November 1953, when a glowing red object went over a residential area of New Haven, Connecticut, causing lights to dim out on both sides of the object's path and then come on when it went out of sight.

Power failures were also reported in association with UFOs in Brazil in 1957 to l959~ Rome, Italy, in 1958; and Mexico in 1965. Likewise, in Uberlandia, where the power station operators promptly closed the circuits when the UFO apparently caused them to open, it did no good, and they were unable to restore the power until the UFO departed.

WARNING

"Near approaches of UFOs can be harmful to human beings. Do not stand under a UFO that is hovering at low altitude. Do not touch or attempt to touch a UFO that has landed. In either case the safe thing to do is to get away from there very quickly and let the military take over. There is a possibility of radiation danger and there are known cases where persons have been burned by rays emanating from UFOs. Don't take chances with UFOs!"


The following incident involving Iranian F-4 Phantoms and UFOs was also captured by a DSP satellite. Both F-4's were disable as they continued to approach the larger UFO but their systems returned to normal only after turning away from the craft.


Updated 30 Nov 2016
Sept. 19, 1976; Tehran, Iran

After midnight. This radar/visual incident is particularly notable for the electromagnetic interference effects on aircraft near the UFO. Two F-4 jet interceptors independently lost instrumentation and communications as they approached, only to have these restored when they left. One F-4 also lost its weapons systems when it was about to fire on the object. The incident is well-documented in a U.S. Defense Intelligence Agency (DIA) report with a distribution list that included the White House, Secretary of State, Joint Chiefs of Staff, National Security Agency (NSA), and Central Intelligence Agency (CIA). Various high ranking Iranian military officers directly involved with the events have also gone on public record stating their belief the object was an extraterrestrial craft.
The Tehran, Iran/F-4 Incident
September 19, 1976

f-42.jpg


iran22L.gif


iran23L.gif


iran24L.gif


http://www.nicap.org/760919tehran_dir.htm
 
Last edited:
Last edited:

Back
Top Bottom