General Holocaust denial discussion Part III

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False claims are false. What more is there to say? I said that "you did it too" is a defense. Not "Saggy is right"

Having made arrests that lead to convictions over the course of 15 years, I've never seen that argument prevail, and I have actually seen that exact defense raised in cases from motor vehicle infractions to felony charges.

"You did it first" isn't any more successful, but I do know of a DUI/vehicular homicide case where "which DUI driver crossed the center divider first" was a determining factor.
 
Having made arrests that lead to convictions over the course of 15 years, I've never seen that argument prevail, and I have actually seen that exact defense raised in cases from motor vehicle infractions to felony charges.

"You did it first" isn't any more successful, but I do know of a DUI/vehicular homicide case where "which DUI driver crossed the center divider first" was a determining factor.
Playing devil's advocate for a second, is it possible that defense worked in the specific context of the Nuremberg trials?

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False claims are false. What more is there to say? I said that "you did it too" is a defense. Not "Saggy is right"
Which - tu quoque defenses - has nothing to do with my post, which explained why Saggy's depiction of Höss as the architect of the Holocaust is a falsification . . . it is though you're part of a different conversation.
 
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Playing devil's advocate for a second, is it possible that defense worked in the specific context of the Nuremberg trials?


Erm, I've already shown that tu quoque was allowed, and succeeded, as a defense for Doenitz against the charge of waging unrestricted submarine warfare. The fact that he was convicted on other charges does not change this.
 
Far from using Pechersky to hoax the world, after the war the Soviet authorities hemmed him in: his testimonies were in fact censored and otherwise restricted. To take one example, the 1945 Russian edition of his earliest memoir, based on letters he'd written and a 1944 edition, substituted the term "Soviet citizens" for "Jews." Some of Pechersky's later testimonies were edited by Soviet authorities into conformity with the view that peaceful Soviet citizens suffered under the Nazis, with the Jewish aspect downplayed or outright suppressed. All this reflected the imposition of a Sovietized viewpoint of the history onto Pechersky's actual experience, which in the USSR became virtually impossible for him to tell as he experienced it.

Pechersky was never honored by Soviet authorities as a hero, nor was his story used by them in celebrating war-time resistance or promoting a narrative of the Holocaust. Following WWII, Pechersky in fact he lived and died in obscurity. He had long stretches of unemployment. As a former POW, Pechersky suffered the usual punishment and life-long discrimination given to Red Army soldiers who'd surrendered to the enemy and been taken prisoner. Jewish themes in his story, when he did testify, were consistently downplayed - and he was not even permitted to testify at the IMT or at EIchmann's trial in 1961. A major testimony he gave in 1962 in the USSR was, according to the author, "stage-managed by the authorities."

Indeed, one must use care with such testimonies - but for reasons exactly opposite to those given by Saggy and Holocaust deniers: the pressures and alterations imposed by Soviet authorities were generally to hide and deny the Jewish aspect of the tragedy, not to promote (or "hoax") it.

But my "Judeo Bolshevism"! Muh Katyn! Muh Invasion of Poland!

Thanks for sharing. It's always useful to hear about this sort of thing.
 
Tu quoque was allowed as a defense for Karl Dönitz on the charge that he committed war crimes by engaging in unrestricted submarine warfare. His attorneys introduced an affidavit from Admiral Nimitz, commander in chief of the US Pacific Fleet, stating that the US had engaged in unrestricted submarine warfare against Japan for the duration of the war.
I don't understand the tu quoque issue to have been so clear cut nor that the Dönitz ruling signaled acceptance of such a defense. In fact, I think that the principle of denying the tu quoque was, if a bit tortuously, maintained in the Dönitz judgment.

First, legal commentators seem generally to concur that tu quoque was not a permitted defense at the IMT.

For example, just two examples: (1) Robert Cryer, Håkan Friman, Darryl Robinson, & Elizabeth Wilmshurst, “the defense was not permitted to raise the issue of crimes committed by the Allies.” (An Introduction to International Criminal Law and Procedure, 2007) (2) Susan Mary Twist, for example, wrote, “the IMT ruled the defence of tu quoque inadmissible.” (“Retrospectivity at Nuremberg: The Nature and Limits of a Schmittian Analysis” (PhD dissertation, University of Central Lancashire, 2012)

However, the commentators also recognize the issue of submarine warfare and Dönitz’s defense in that matter.

Different defenses were raised in this matter at the IMT. Defense attorney Servatius, for example, argued that the orders were not illegal because the Hague Convention was obsolete. (Conot, Justice at Nuremberg, 1983, 2009, p 325)

The strongest case, however, was argued by defense attorney Kranzbühler who put it like this (IMT, Blue Series, v VIII, p 549):
I now turn to the application regarding the interrogatory to be put to Admiral Nimitz. The stand taken by the Prosecution differs entirely from the conception on which my application is based. I in no way wish to prove or even to maintain that the American Admiralty in its U-boat warfare against Japan broke international law. On the contrary, I am of the opinion that it acted strictly in accordance with international law. In the United States' sea war against Japan, the same question arises as in Germany's sea war against England, namely the scope and interpretation of the London Submarine Agreement of 1930. The United States and Japan were also signatories to this agreement.

My point is that, because of the order to merchant vessels to offer resistance, the London Agreement is no longer applicable to such merchantmen; further, that it was not applicable in declared operational zones in which a general warning had been given to all vessels, thus making an individual warning unnecessary before the attack.

Through the interrogatory to Admiral Nimitz I want to establish that the American Admiralty in practice interpreted the London Agreement in exactly the same way as the German Admiralty, and thus prove that the Gennan conduct of sea warfare was perfectly legal. The same applies to the treatment of shipwrecked persons in waters where the U-boat would endanger herself by rescue measures.
In other words, Kranzbühler’s argument was that no one broke international law, not that everyone violated the law. The gray area is that Kranzbühler got to this proposition via the reality that everyone acted the same way. Persico describes Kranzbühler’s interrogatory as ingenious (Nuremberg: Infamy on Trial, 1994, p 338).

I understand Kranzbühler’s plea to be different to the case in which everyone is driving over the speed limit and the driver who gets pulled over pleads “they did it too" meaning that other drivers were also violating the speed limit. It is more like the driver who was singled out arguing that there was no speed limit because the limit didn't apply in the circumstances and thus everyone was within his or her rights to drive at fast speeds through the zone.

Conot makes this explicit in discussing Nimitz’s testimony: “Kranzbühler thus won his point. . . .[H]e had obtained the affirmation that American submarine practices had paralleled the Germans . . . and that, therefore, in practice, if not strictly in theory, German naval warfare had been ‘legal.’” 0p 417) Telford Taylor was of the same view as Conot, writing in The Anatomy of the Nuremberg Trials (1993, 2013) that Kranzbühler had “turned from the tu quoque to an issue of the interpretation of the London Agreement of 1936,” namely the technical definition of merchant vessels under that agreement (p 400).

The tribunal’s acceptance of Kranzbühler’s interrogatory spoke of its being “appropriate to construe the international law of submarine warfare by determining what actions were taken by the powers during the war.” (p 411) Taylor also wrote that the questions later put to Nimitz didn’t go to either the London Agreement or the definition of merchant ship, the very points on which Kranzbühler’s argument relied. (p 409)

All this, as Taylor noted, was not so clear as Kranzbühler’s argument but was not really the tribunal's admitting a tu quoque pleading either. Taylor’s opinion on the matter? “[T]he line between tu quoque and the meaning of ‘merchant ship’ in the London Charter was a very thin one” (p 409), but Nimitz’s testimony “had supported . . . Kranzbühler’s argument that armed merchant ships were not ‘merchant vessels’ within the meaning and protection of the 1939 Agreement . . .” (p 483)
 
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The UN conspiracy to control history ...

If you haven't read '1984' in a while, I suggest a rereading - the book's protagonist, Winston Smith, works in the Ministry of Truth, and his job is to rewrite history to conform to the current desires of the 2%, that is the Inner Party.

I don't think any of us expected to see an actual Ministry of Truth, but lo and behold I just came across a document produced by elements of the UN that are directed to the the goal of controlling 'historical memory' and if you read it you'll see that they have been at it for some time.

The document ... 'EUROPEAN HISTORICAL MEMORY: POLICIES, CHALLENGES AND PERSPECTIVES'

https://www.google.de/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwjonuDQtPjUAhUJ4yYKHUUqBVsQFggrMAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.europarl.europa.eu%2FRegData%2Fetudes%2FSTUD%2F2015%2F540364%2FIPOL_STU%25282015%2529540364_EN.pdf&usg=AFQjCNELkv3ikiwumnGZOToPOCUlwCaxVA


We can get an idea of the concerns of the organization from this sentence, which is repeated several times in the document and is remarkable for its sheer idiocy to the point of comedy ...

"At the same time, concentrating European efforts for transnational historical remembrance on the Holocaust and National Socialism as well as Stalinism proves problematic in two respects. Firstly, such an approach fosters a biased black-and-white scheme of history that makes Europe’s 'dark past' appear as the logical alternative to its 'bright present'."

The part that seems funny to me is Europe's .... bright present.

If only.
 
Few problems:

1. Nobody cares enough about the UN to read this.

2. Someone has to actively seek this out before they can read it.

3. Apple has 1000-times more influence on world affairs than the UN.

Therefore, you can't influence people with something they will never see.:thumbsup:
 
Lol, Saggy has no answer to the criticisms Lemmy and I brought up.

Well yes you didn't agree with him and he cannot spend his valuable time providing evidence - he's on a one man mission to spread the trooth!!
 
If you haven't read '1984' in a while, I suggest a rereading - the book's protagonist, Winston Smith, works in the Ministry of Truth, and his job is to rewrite history to conform to the current desires of the 2%, that is the Inner Party.

1984 is a work of fiction. You know that, right?
I don't think any of us expected to see an actual Ministry of Truth, but lo and behold I just came across a document produced by elements of the UN that are directed to the the goal of controlling 'historical memory' and if you read it you'll see that they have been at it for some time.

Actually, the European Parliament. You really need to learn about the world outside America. Really.


The document ... 'EUROPEAN HISTORICAL MEMORY: POLICIES, CHALLENGES AND PERSPECTIVES'

https://www.google.de/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwjonuDQtPjUAhUJ4yYKHUUqBVsQFggrMAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.europarl.europa.eu%2FRegData%2Fetudes%2FSTUD%2F2015%2F540364%2FIPOL_STU%25282015%2529540364_EN.pdf&usg=AFQjCNELkv3ikiwumnGZOToPOCUlwCaxVA


We can get an idea of the concerns of the organization from this sentence, which is repeated several times in the document and is remarkable for its sheer idiocy to the point of comedy ...

"At the same time, concentrating European efforts for transnational historical remembrance on the Holocaust and National Socialism as well as Stalinism proves problematic in two respects. Firstly, such an approach fosters a biased black-and-white scheme of history that makes Europe’s 'dark past' appear as the logical alternative to its 'bright present'."

This is the introduction:
Abstract
This note seeks to provide some reflections on the challenges, current policies and
possible future prospects of 'historical memory' in a European context. Based on
acknowledging the complex nature of collective memories in general and shared
European historical remembrance in particular, including their susceptibility to
political instrumentalisation, it is argued that a critical 'culture of remembering' needs to be developed. Such a culture requires increased efforts for nation states
to come to terms with their own respective pasts in an unbiased way, yet at the
same time embracing common European principles and values. In this context, the
vital role of education as a tool to create an informed historical consciousness is
emphasised, which provides the basis for dealing confidently not only with Europe’s
past, but also present and future.

They go on to elaborate:
Key requirements of the
envisaged 'culture of remembering' include:  approaching Europe’s past on the foundation of European core values, such as
humanism, tolerance and democracy;  creating an open sphere of discussion that provides for mutual understanding and
reconciliation both within and between European nations;  addressing uncomfortable segments of national histories;  basing judgements of the past exclusively on the examination of historical facts,
while renouncing the notion of 'historical truth'

Saggy, you clearly have no idea what you're talking about. This document is the polar opposite of what you claim it is. Did you read any of it?

The part that seems funny to me is Europe's .... bright present.

If only.

I know. All that stability, democracy, concern for the environment and human rights....It's an absolute nightmare. :rolleyes:
 
If you haven't read '1984' in a while, I suggest a rereading - the book's protagonist, Winston Smith, works in the Ministry of Truth, and his job is to rewrite history to conform to the current desires of the 2%, that is the Inner Party.

I don't think any of us expected to see an actual Ministry of Truth, but lo and behold I just came across a document produced by elements of the UN that are directed to the the goal of controlling 'historical memory' and if you read it you'll see that they have been at it for some time.

The document ... 'EUROPEAN HISTORICAL MEMORY: POLICIES, CHALLENGES AND PERSPECTIVES'

https://www.google.de/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwjonuDQtPjUAhUJ4yYKHUUqBVsQFggrMAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.europarl.europa.eu%2FRegData%2Fetudes%2FSTUD%2F2015%2F540364%2FIPOL_STU%25282015%2529540364_EN.pdf&usg=AFQjCNELkv3ikiwumnGZOToPOCUlwCaxVA


We can get an idea of the concerns of the organization from this sentence, which is repeated several times in the document and is remarkable for its sheer idiocy to the point of comedy ...

"At the same time, concentrating European efforts for transnational historical remembrance on the Holocaust and National Socialism as well as Stalinism proves problematic in two respects. Firstly, such an approach fosters a biased black-and-white scheme of history that makes Europe’s 'dark past' appear as the logical alternative to its 'bright present'."

The part that seems funny to me is Europe's .... bright present.

If only.

S-o, as I see you are not even able to make a difference between a document published by the UN and a document published by the European Parliament, as the one you are referring to.

Furthermore you should maybe try to quote the full passage instead of selecting only what is convenient to you:

Firstly, such an approach fosters a highly schematic and teleological view of history: it juxtaposes Europe’s 'dark past', which is 20th-century totalitarianism, with its 'bright present', and thus makes contemporary Europe appear as a version of the ‘end of history’ claims made especially after the fall of Communism. Such a view not only lacks critical depth towards contemporary history as well as current political problems, but also neglects the richness and complexities of European history before the 20th century, crucial issues of which – including colonialism and imperialism – are of comparable long-term importance for today’s Europe as National Socialism and Stalinism. Expanding the focus of historical memory both backwards and forward would allow for a more comprehensive and indeed more sensitive understanding not only of European Historical Memory: Policies, Challenges and Perspectives more sensitive understanding not only of European history and its intricacies, but also the European integration process.

Secondly, putting a complete 'totalitarian face' to the past which is perceived as a radical contrast to the present, and thus elevating it to a negative foundation myth, if not dogma, hampers rather than facilitates debate about shared European accountability for history. It opens the door for ideological instrumentalisation and moralisation of the past, and reduces incentives to critically examine stereotypes and sacred cows of one’s own national history. Since memory is at risk of turning primarily into a nostalgic trip to the past, even if it is an exceedingly tragic one, debate about present and future gets almost inevitably compromised, too. (Recommandations and conclusions, point 4, pages 36-37)

This shows that the reports tells a completely different story than the one you want to read...

The problem with the deniers is that they cannot stick to the content of a document and always need to invent things that are not contained therein.
 
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I know. All that stability, democracy, concern for the environment and human rights....It's an absolute nightmare. :rolleyes:

Here is the reality - we are living a nightmare of our own creation, the doomsday machine, which can destroy civilization, and possibly human life on earth, in a day. But, as you demonstrate, it has somehow been erased from our collective consciousness.

Plus, in Europe, the Jews are gloating over the imminent death of European culture and the white race. So, it's not all halcyon days for everyone.

'UN' was a typo, I meant EU.

As for the overall theme of the document ...

pg. #8
Preceded by initiatives since the 1990s especially of the European Parliament to increase awareness for the Holocaust and, since the Eastern Enlargement, also Stalinist crimes, efforts to keep history alive are supported in particular by the Europe for Citizens Programme launched in 2006.

3. Developing Future European Memory Policies
At closer inspection, what might appear to be one coherent EU Memory Policy proves to be far from uncontested. Rather, there is still palpable competition between two at least partly competing memory frames: the 'uniqueness of the Holocaust', that has shaped Western European post-war culture, and the 'National Socialism and Stalinism as equally evil', that suits the needs of Eastern European nations to come to terms with their respective communist past.

At the same time, concentrating European efforts for transnational historical remembrance on the Holocaust and National Socialism as well as Stalinism proves problematic in two respects. Firstly, such an approach fosters a biased black-and-white scheme of history that makes Europe’s 'dark past' appear as the logical alternative to its 'bright present'.

pg. #20
The European Parliament’s defining National Socialism, particularly the Holocaust, and Stalinism as the main objects of European historical memory is in line with earlier political initiatives in this regard.

#pg 21
In 2005, the European Parliament’s Resolution on Remembrance of the Holocaust, Anti-Semitism and Racism49 reiterated the unique importance of the Holocaust as a historical reference point.

#pg. 24
3. DEVELOPING FUTURE EUROPEAN MEMORY POLICIES

Etc., and we haven't even gotten to the section on the holohoax, which begins on page 26.

As I read it, this is a document that could have come from Orwell's Ministry of Truth.

On occasion they point out that it is a little unusual to make the focus of a people's collective memory events of monstrous cruelty, but .... what the hell, it's good enough for the goyim :).

However, " elevating .. a negative foundation myth, if not dogma," does have drawbacks, as it "hampers rather than facilitates debate about shared European accountability for history." I.e. makes the holohoax lies less effective as they've already been processed. Oy vey !
 
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Plus, in Europe, the Jews are gloating over the imminent death of European culture and the white race. So, it's not all halcyon days for everyone.
What on earth are you referring to - as you introduce new topics to dodge earlier arguments you can't answer?
 
Here is the reality - we are living a nightmare of our own creation, the doomsday machine, which can destroy civilization, and possibly human life on earth, in a day. But, as you demonstrate, it has somehow been erased from our collective consciousness.

Plus, in Europe, the Jews are gloating over the imminent death of European culture and the white race. So, it's not all halcyon days for everyone.

'UN' was a typo, I meant EU.

As for the overall theme of the document ...

pg. #8
Preceded by initiatives since the 1990s especially of the European Parliament to increase awareness for the Holocaust and, since the Eastern Enlargement, also Stalinist crimes, efforts to keep history alive are supported in particular by the Europe for Citizens Programme launched in 2006.

3. Developing Future European Memory Policies
At closer inspection, what might appear to be one coherent EU Memory Policy proves to be far from uncontested. Rather, there is still palpable competition between two at least partly competing memory frames: the 'uniqueness of the Holocaust', that has shaped Western European post-war culture, and the 'National Socialism and Stalinism as equally evil', that suits the needs of Eastern European nations to come to terms with their respective communist past.

At the same time, concentrating European efforts for transnational historical remembrance on the Holocaust and National Socialism as well as Stalinism proves problematic in two respects. Firstly, such an approach fosters a biased black-and-white scheme of history that makes Europe’s 'dark past' appear as the logical alternative to its 'bright present'.

pg. #20
The European Parliament’s defining National Socialism, particularly the Holocaust, and Stalinism as the main objects of European historical memory is in line with earlier political initiatives in this regard.

#pg 21
In 2005, the European Parliament’s Resolution on Remembrance of the Holocaust, Anti-Semitism and Racism49 reiterated the unique importance of the Holocaust as a historical reference point.

#pg. 24
3. DEVELOPING FUTURE EUROPEAN MEMORY POLICIES

Etc., and we haven't even gotten to the section on the holohoax, which begins on page 26.

As I read it, this is a document that could have come from Orwell's Ministry of Truth.

On occasion they point out that it is a little unusual to make the focus of a people's collective memory events of monstrous cruelty, but .... what the hell, it's good enough for the goyim :).

However, " elevating .. a negative foundation myth, if not dogma," does have drawbacks, as it "hampers rather than facilitates debate about shared European accountability for history." I.e. makes the holohoax lies less effective as they've already been processed. Oy vey !

Typical denialist behavior: using a few quotes taken out of context and conveniently forgetting the context of the study and its overall conclusions.
 
More quotes ...

"At the same time, however, the present focus of European memory politics is problematic in at least two respects:
1) Basing the legitimacy of any political project primarily on a negative foundation myth is daring per se, and historically the exception rather than the rule. In the concrete case of what we might call the 'European Project', one can reasonably ask whether present-day Europe and its values should be defined predominantly vis-àvis past experiences of mass violence, genocide, or population displacement."


Hey, what's the problem with that .... they're barbarians after all. :)

and ...

"2) Reducing the problem of 'reworking the past' to National Socialism and Stalinism runs the risk of evading the issue of shared European accountability for the past. When talking about European historical memory, one also needs to address the question whether responsibility for atrocities and injustice committed might not also partly be 'European'."

Good point. Of course all of Europe is responsible for the holohoax, not to mention Christianity world wide. Goldhagen said so. :)
 
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The favorite tactic of hasbara on this board is to flood the discussion with zero-content comments like yours. Unfortunately there is nothing I can do but point it out.

And, I'm not even sure that I am allowed to point it out, so ... this will be the last time.
Saggy, both Ivanesca and I patiently replied to your assertion that Höss is to be seen as the architect of the Holocaust.
Me: http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11901421&postcount=2454
Ivanesca:http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11901292&postcount=2446; http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11901320&postcount=2449

Both Ivanesca and I also introduced evidence and arguments addressing your claim of a "Holocaust hoax" created by the Soviets.
Me: http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11906045&postcount=2478
Ivanesca: http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11904825&postcount=2471; http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11901346&postcount=2452; http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11901292&postcount=2446

Anyone can see that the comments Ivanesca and I made are not "zero-content"; rather, you have decided to ignore the content in them by opening up new topics. There may be points which Ivanesca and I made that are debatable; unfortunately for your cause, you chose not to debate but to ignore and attack.

And further in reply you now make an ad hominem attack on me - and seemingly pretend to be confused by what you've done, without foundation describing me as "hasbara." Please provide evidence for this attack or it should be considered self-refuted.
 
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