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Matt Rouge on Why Skeptics will never accept the existence of psi

Nay_Sayer said:
The hypothetical?

I set it up to see if you understand that evidence claiming X is happening isn't the same as proving X is happening.

That aside; Without evidence should I accept a claim at its face value?
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Without evidence you should adopt a maximum entropy distribution over possible outcomes, ie P(claim) = P(not claim).
 
Nay_Sayer said:
What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.
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Yes exactly, like "aliens with psi powers exist in the universe" or "aliens with psi powers do not exist in the universe" or any other number of assertions. I'm still not seeing the relevance though.
 
Pixel42 said:
Assumed false until and unless evidence offered to support it.
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OK, how about "aliens exist somewhere in the universe"? I have a hard time believing you assume that is false, so I think your hang up is on psi. Why? I can see skepticism about human psi abilities, but non-human ones? That sounds closed minded.
 
Nay_Sayer said:
What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.
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Wait, if I assert that the next largest prime to be discovered will end in an even number, are you going to dismiss that, because I have no evidence? Wouldn't the proper attitude be to reserve judgement? Not dismiss, but be agnostic about?
 
Fudbucker said:
OK, how about "aliens exist somewhere in the universe"? I have a hard time believing you assume that is false, so I think your hang up is on psi. Why? I can see skepticism about human psi abilities, but non-human ones? That sounds closed minded.
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Psi is being defined in this thread as paranormal abilities, i. e. abilities which are incompatible with the laws of physics. We know enough about the laws of physics and their universal applicability (IMO at least) to place the burden of proof firmly on those who believe such abilities exist, regardless of whether they attribute them to humans or aliens. Alien life is, however, compatible with the laws of physics.
 
Pixel42 said:
Psi is being defined in this thread as paranormal abilities, i. e. abilities which are incompatible with the laws of physics. We know enough about the laws of physics and their universal applicability (IMO at least) to place the burden of proof firmly on those who believe such abilities exist, regardless of whether they attribute them to humans or aliens. Alien life is, however, compatible with the laws of physics.
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Fair enough. If human psi was proven, I would be mildly surprised, which means I think the odds of it existing are somewhat low. If aliens showed up and demonstrated psi abilities, I wouldn't be surprised at all. I could argue that this is the correct way to look at things, but it would be a lengthy discussion and probably nobody's mind would change.
 
caveman1917 said:
Before you told me it meant "the sun is a star"? Yes, it would be 50/50 because at that point it might as well have meant "the sun is a not a star". You don't really grasp how this reasoning thing works, do you?
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Or I could have been saying anything else, you still seem not to be able to grasp that meaning is required before one can make any judgement on any claim.
 
caveman1917 said:
What is a factual statement other than a belief which accounts for the available evidence?
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Eh? A statement can account for the available evidence without being true. To be factual, a statement has to be true, by definition.

But it doesn't have to be believed, by definition. People often reject facts and believe some other plausible account, but the truth is still the truth, despite false belief.

In other words I reject every part of your definition of a "factual statement".
 
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Fudbucker said:
OK, how about "aliens exist somewhere in the universe"? I have a hard time believing you assume that is false, so I think your hang up is on psi. Why? I can see skepticism about human psi abilities, but non-human ones? That sounds closed minded.
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Problem is what is meant by Psi. If it is what psi originally was an explanation for then no we have no reason to believe that aliens could have those powers.
 
Darat said:
Or I could have been saying anything else
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Indeed, your point being?

you still seem not to be able to grasp that meaning is required before one can make any judgement on any claim.
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No need to project your own limitations on others. I'm perfectly able to give you the maximum entropy distribution given only the (finite) number of outcomes (in this case just 2, ie "claim" and "not claim") without needing those outcomes to be "meaningful" - whatever that even means. If you fail at doing this then that's hardly my problem.
 
Fudbucker said:
Wait, if I assert that the next largest prime to be discovered will end in an even number, are you going to dismiss that, because I have no evidence?
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It would be better to dismiss that because even numbers greater than 2 can't be prime, them being divisible by 2 and all that.

Wouldn't the proper attitude be to reserve judgement? Not dismiss, but be agnostic about?
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Did you know there are no planets around stars in Andromeda? There is no evidence of them, therefor there are none.
 
Pixel42 said:
Psi is being defined in this thread as paranormal abilities, i. e. abilities which are incompatible with the laws of physics. We know enough about the laws of physics and their universal applicability (IMO at least) to place the burden of proof firmly on those who believe such abilities exist, regardless of whether they attribute them to humans or aliens. Alien life is, however, compatible with the laws of physics.
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Ageing slower or faster than other people also used to be incompatible with the laws of physics. Every new theory in physics is going to be incompatible with the then-known laws of physics, otherwise it wouldn't be a new theory. If you're claiming that no new physics can be discovered which would allow aliens to perform acts which we would call psi, as you seem to be doing, then you seem to have a burden of proof as well.
 
caveman1917 said:
It would be better to dismiss that because even numbers greater than 2 can't be prime, them being divisible by 2 and all that.



Did you know there are no planets around stars in Andromeda? There is no evidence of them, therefor there are none.
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You got me on the prime thing. Funny what we overlook sometimes.
 
caveman1917 said:
Ageing slower or faster than other people also used to be incompatible with the laws of physics. Every new theory in physics is going to be incompatible with the then-known laws of physics, otherwise it wouldn't be a new theory. If you're claiming that no new physics can be discovered which would allow aliens to perform acts which we would call psi, as you seem to be doing, then you seem to have a burden of proof as well.
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Some humans can perform acts which look like psi, they're called magicians.

The definition of paranormal abilities as abilities which are incompatible with the laws of physics does not presume that all those laws are already known.
 
caveman1917 said:
Indeed, your point being?



No need to project your own limitations on others. I'm perfectly able to give you the maximum entropy distribution given only the (finite) number of outcomes (in this case just 2, ie "claim" and "not claim") without needing those outcomes to be "meaningful" - whatever that even means. If you fail at doing this then that's hardly my problem.
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No you can't if you don't know what the claim is, you can't even know how many claims are even being made if there is no understanding of the words behind the claim.
 
Pixel42 said:
Some humans can perform acts which look like psi, they're called magicians.
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Yes, that is obviously what I was talking about...

I meant the application of hitherto unknown physics so as to perform acts which we - ie not knowing the physics involved - would consider instances of psi.

The definition of paranormal abilities as abilities which are incompatible with the laws of physics does not presume that all those laws are already known.
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How would you be able to tell, given that at no point you can presume to know all the laws of physics? Seems a pretty useless definition. Besides, I thought psi believers tend to be fans of claiming their claimed abilities are caused by some new unknown physics, hence all the quantum woo stuff.
 
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