CCW holder killed reaching for ID.

Mumbles said:
And the video shows exactly what we already knew - Castile was told to hand over his license, made a good faith effort to inform the cop of what was happening, and was rewarded with multiple shots from a panicked police officer.

The cop should be under the jail right about now - but at least he seems to be leaving the profession entirely. That's below the bare minimum of what justice looks like, but it's better than we usually see for cops that murder black people.
Click to expand...

I don't think the detail is necessary. It shows that the USA is very sick indeed that this guy had to die like this.
 
Mumbles said:
And the video shows exactly what we already knew - Castile was told to hand over his license, made a good faith effort to inform the cop of what was happening, and was rewarded with multiple shots from a panicked police officer.

The cop should be under the jail right about now - but at least he seems to be leaving the profession entirely. That's below the bare minimum of what justice looks like, but it's better than we usually see for cops that murder black people.
Click to expand...

Entirely? He lost his job there, but bad cops usually get hired somewhere else. I guess he might be a touch infamous to get hired but I could see lots of departments going to bat for him.
 
I will say that I have a personal take on this incident (aside from the local issue).

About 45 years ago. I personally knew one of out Boy Scout leaders who was shot by an officer under very similar circumstances. His three boys, my friends, were in the car at the time. No racial issues there. I don't recall what happened to the cop. I still see the boys (now men) from time to time.

Skeptic Tank said:
I'd be curious to hear you lay out what you think each of them should have done differently.
Click to expand...

I think we could get lost in the "if only"s if we go that way.
 
mgidm86 said:
Not disagreeing necessarily with you, but at the same time that argument is kind of weak. The odds may be low, but there aren't many jobs where people or machinery may be actively seeking to kill you. It can be completely out of the cops hands.
Click to expand...
And that job would be taxi cab driver / chauffeur, which is a job that is MORE dangerous than a being a police officer. And the reason the death toll is higher? That the person that they might be transporting might be actively seeing to kill them.

However, if any taxicab driver had gone to trial for the same circumstances in this case, he would have been convicted of murder. It's almost as if we hold police officers to a LOWER standard than taxi cab drivers.
 
As usual an American police officers obviously unreasonable actions are excused by the fact that they "feared for their life":

Yanez told investigators he feared for his life, and he said the same thing during his testimony earlier this month. According to the officer, he thought Castile was grabbing a gun, which Reynolds had disputed.

“I know he had an object and it was dark,” Yanez told investigators, according to the criminal complaint filed by prosecutors last year. “And he was pulling it out with his right hand. And as he was pulling it out I, a million things started going through my head. And I thought I was gonna die.”
Click to expand...

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...stop-that-ended-with-philando-castiles-death/

As far as I'm concerned, when it comes to civil servants and state officials, the adage that "with great power comes great responsibility" is supreme.
Police officers have essentially power over life and death over their fellow man and it's their responsibility to act reasonably to avert unneeded harm coming to people, including themselves but perhaps more importantly other people too, and not others.

In this case the officers actions are completely inexcusable and under this principle they should expect to be punished for it. Excuses like “And he was pulling it out with his right hand. And as he was pulling it out I, a million things started going through my head. And I thought I was gonna die.” should not be acceptable.

One should expect more from police officers than them being nervous, fearful and trigger happy yet since Americans are apparently content with scraping the barrel to staff their police agencies i guess they should expect nothing less than being shot to death for something as pointless as this.
 
Last edited:
Arcade22 said:
As usual an American police officers obviously unreasonable actions are excused by the fact that they "feared for their life":



https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...stop-that-ended-with-philando-castiles-death/

As far as I'm concerned, when it comes to civil servants and state officials, the adage that "with great power comes great responsibility" is supreme.
Police officers have essentially power over life and death over their fellow man and it's their responsibility to act reasonably to avert unneeded harm coming to people, including themselves but perhaps more importantly other people too, and not others.

In this case the officers actions are completely inexcusable and under this principle they should expect to be punished for it. Excuses like “And he was pulling it out with his right hand. And as he was pulling it out I, a million things started going through my head. And I thought I was gonna die.” should not be acceptable.

One should expect more from police officers than them being nervous, fearful and trigger happy yet since Americans are apparently content with scraping the barrel to staff their police agencies i guess they should expect nothing less than being shot to death for something as pointless as this.
Click to expand...

Exactly. It's not that I hate police officers. In fact, it is the opposite. I have so much respect for police officers that I expect them to uphold a high standard.

It's the same reason I don't accept the "the rate of child molesters among priests is the same as that of the regular population." Really? That's your standard? Priests are just like everyone else? I sure as hell hope not. At least, shouldn't we expect more from those who claim to be moral teachers?

Similarly, cops. I count on them to protect and to serve. They aren't just regular people. They are, or at least we should expect them to be, above and beyond.
 
pgwenthold said:
Exactly. It's not that I hate police officers. In fact, it is the opposite. I have so much respect for police officers that I expect them to uphold a high standard.

It's the same reason I don't accept the "the rate of child molesters among priests is the same as that of the regular population." Really? That's your standard? Priests are just like everyone else? I sure as hell hope not. At least, shouldn't we expect more from those who claim to be moral teachers?

Similarly, cops. I count on them to protect and to serve. They aren't just regular people. They are, or at least we should expect them to be, above and beyond.
Click to expand...

In NYC, at least, the courts have ruled the police officers are under no obligation to protect anyone or anything ... except their own sorry asses, of course.
 
Last edited:
pgwenthold said:
Exactly. It's not that I hate police officers. In fact, it is the opposite. I have so much respect for police officers that I expect them to uphold a high standard.

It's the same reason I don't accept the "the rate of child molesters among priests is the same as that of the regular population." Really? That's your standard? Priests are just like everyone else? I sure as hell hope not. At least, shouldn't we expect more from those who claim to be moral teachers?

Similarly, cops. I count on them to protect and to serve. They aren't just regular people. They are, or at least we should expect them to be, above and beyond.
Click to expand...

In both cases I care far more about what they do after the individual offends than the initial rates of offense. The problem is the cover ups and back covering and giving them more chances to offend because of their position.
 
ponderingturtle said:
In both cases I care far more about what they do after the individual offends than the initial rates of offense. The problem is the cover ups and back covering and giving them more chances to offend because of their position.
Click to expand...

Another problem, of course. Again, the priest comparison is apt.

I agree, the other cops need to hold their colleagues up to high standards, as well, instead of protecting them when they screw up.
 
Arcade22 said:
As usual an American police officers obviously unreasonable actions are excused by the fact that they "feared for their life"
Click to expand...

You say this so dismissively. As though the Officer is just blatantly and obviously BSing after the fact when he says he feared for his life.

Well why in the blue blazes would he have shot the guy if he HADN'T feared for his life?

He was perfectly personable and professional with Castile when he initially pulled him over. He was quite calm even in the moment immediately after being told there was a firearm. He said "Okay, well don't reach for it" and he said it calmly. No indication whatsoever in his voice or demeanor at that point that he was going to flip out and/or freak out based solely on Castile disclosing that. He appeared to be entirely prepared to continue the stop in the same personable, professional way he'd been doing it up until then.

It is only upon seeing what Castile did with his hands AFTER being told not to reach for it, repeatedly, that he drew his own firearm and shot Castile.

He clearly felt horrible about doing it, and was very distraught. This indicates he's no monster, and it doesn't necessarily indicate he knew he'd made an error. It simply indicates he's in shock that things turned so quickly and that what he did became necessary, in his estimation. He's frustrated with what he had to do, and feels an intense mix of frustration and sorrow and confusion about why Castile didn't just stop moving his hands in the way he was. Even when he reached in and tried to physically stop him with his left hand.

So where do you get this idea that he didn't fear for his life?

It's reasonable for him to think Castile's next move is to draw his firearm and shoot him with it if he simply will not halt his hand movements in that vicinity when being screamed at to stop, and when having an officer reach into the car and try to stop him directly.

I don't know what in the world Castile was thinking and why he didn't just freeze and allow the officer to indicate what should happen next. It may be because he was high. It may be because he was a dimwit. It may be because of both of those things.

It may simply be that he instinctively pulled back from the officer and resented the implication that he was reaching for the gun when all he was actually reaching for was his wallet. Maybe he got tunnel vision and thought, in those split seconds, "this cop is going to feel pretty dumb here in a second when it's my wallet I pull out, not the gun" - but if that's what happened... Castile was incredibly stupid to make a play for his little "see? don't you feel stupid and racist now, officer?" moment. It cost him his life.

We also can't 100% rule out the possibility that he did intend to shoot the officer, though I doubt that was the case. Not impossible.

But anyway, an officer is obviously going to fear for their life if they think someone is reaching for a gun and ignoring loud commands to not do so. It would essentially be impossible for the officer to not fear for his life at that point.
 
Skeptic Tank said:
[The police officer], was perfectly personable and professional with Castile when he initially pulled him over. He was quite calm even in the moment immediately after being told there was a firearm. He said "Okay, well don't reach for it" and he said it calmly ....

It is only upon seeing what Castile did with his hands AFTER being told not to reach for it, repeatedly, that he drew his own firearm and shot Castile.
Click to expand...

After seeing the dash cam video, I have to agree with you 100% ... the officer ACTUALLY attempted to PHYSICALLY restrain the driver! ... and YET the driver STILL kept reaching for his pocket!

I've often mentioned in these threads ... I keep my wrists on the steering wheel and hands up near the windshield when I get pulled over ... until the cop instructs me ... then I say what I'm doing and move slowly.
 
The policeman didn't say 'freeze' .. he didn't say 'don't move' .. he say 'don't pull it out' .. and Castillo said 'I'm not pulling it out' .. he continued to pull something out, or, as some suggest, he was unfastening his seat belt. Yes, Castello didn't thought that it might be mistaken for pulling gun .. but he didn't disobey order. He simply thought 'I'm not pulling gun, so what's this guy's problem' .. but before they could clear the confusion, the policeman shot him. I certainly see a problem here, as I see as this could easily happen to me. I see why the policeman was scared .. be he misjudged and killed person in error .. and he must be held responsible for it.
 
Yeggster said:
After seeing the dash cam video, I have to agree with you 100% ... the officer ACTUALLY attempted to PHYSICALLY restrain the driver! ... and YET the driver STILL kept reaching for his pocket!

I've often mentioned in these threads ... I keep my wrists on the steering wheel and hands up near the windshield when I get pulled over ... until the cop instructs me ... then I say what I'm doing and move slowly.
Click to expand...

Yes .. that's reasonable .. you simple expect the cop to shoot you at any moment. Which is wise. But is it right ?
 
Yeggster said:
I've often mentioned in these threads ... I keep my wrists on the steering wheel and hands up near the windshield when I get pulled over ... until the cop instructs me ... then I say what I'm doing and move slowly.
Click to expand...

I really, really don't ever want to live in a world where I have to do that.

On the few occasions I have been stopped, I hop out of the car to shake their hand and say hello and, quite honestly, not be in a one man standing, one man sitting conversation that is just plain awkward.


I find the required undercurrent of being afraid of being shot - which is why you do what you describe above, so you don't get shot - to be an unacceptable burden in the 21 century.
 
Yeggster said:
I ... until the cop instructs me ... then I say what I'm doing and move slowly.
Click to expand...
Yes. And the cop instructed him to get his ID. Which he did. Slowly. And he alerting him while doing that that he had a concealed weapon.

Oddly enough, if his interaction had been getting money out to a pay a taxi cab driver, and then taxi cab driver said the same things to him and shot him, he'd easily be convicted of murder.

Your impressions of police officers seem to liken them to hippos, lions or tigers. It's odd that a group that has been licensed by the government to enforce law has to be treated extremely cautiously by the public, as if encountering a wild animal, but a group licensed to drive cars can be treated like rabbits.

Shouldn't we have more trust in our interactions with law enforcement officials, not less?
 
bignickel said:
Yes. And the cop instructed him to get his ID. Which he did.
Click to expand...
not that's not what happened

Did you listen to the video? :(

The cop tried to physically STOP him from moving his right hand to his pocket ... and the driver just kept moving AFTER being yelled at to stop! AND after having his arm held ...
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Back
Top Bottom