Michael Shermer vs. "alternative history" Hancock and Crandall

[steenkh]

Turn on your CC...then mute.

So there is no transcript then. Thought so.

 

[Roboramma]

DO your own work.

There is a video you should watch before posting again. You are wasting time...

Do you think this post was particularly useful? You think that you are adding something of real value to this thread by repeatedly telling people not to post? You pretend to want to have a discussion about the video, but have nothing to say about it?

I watched 1.5 hours of the video. I'm happy to discuss the portion that I did watch. If you are interested in that discussion I'm happy to have it. If you want to discuss the rest of the video feel free to do so.

Replying to this post by telling me not to post is not going to be very useful. But feel free to do that too if you want to.

 

[Craig B]

DO your own work.

There is a video you should watch before posting again. You are wasting time...

May I but in? It is my policy never to accept as evidence some disciple presenting a video containing the pronouncements of a guru. The disciple has a responsibility to provide interested parties with his or her own arguments, based as may be on an understanding of the guru's doctrine. That is NOT the same thing as the interested parties requiring to be spoon fed. But it is remarkable how often disciples offer unedited video evidence of their pet guru holding forth; and demand that questioners watch it or shut up.

We see this particularly in the fields of free energy, alternative history and religious revelation.

 

[King of the Americas]

So there is no transcript then. Thought so.

It is not my job to do your work, or find a transcript. Yet, I gave you an option that would allow you to read the content of the discussion.

I predict, if it were of interest to you, then you would seek it out...

If you want to discuss the topic, review the material.

 

[Craig B]

It is not your job? Yes it is. tell us what it says, and tell us why you are convinced by it. That's your job.

 

[King of the Americas]

It is not your job? Yes it is. tell us what it says, and tell us why you are convinced by it. That's your job.

Watch the video.

Then we can have an exchange about its contents, or you could read this thread?

 

[Craig B]

Watch the video.

Then we can have an exchange about its contents, or you could read this thread?

Provide us with arguments founded upon your understanding of the evidence. These are the things we could have an exchange about the contents of. But if you have no such understanding, that's fine. you don't need to discuss anything at all if you don't want to.

It is not appropriate to tell people what they must read, or even worse, watch, before you will deign to enter discourse with them. That's what happens in classrooms, not discussion forums.

 

[King of the Americas]

Provide us with arguments founded upon your understanding of the evidence. These are the things we could have an exchange about the contents of. But if you have no such understanding, that's fine. you don't need to discuss anything at all if you don't want to.

It is not appropriate to tell people what they must read, or even worse, watch, before you will deign to enter discourse with them. That's what happens in classrooms, not discussion forums.

Read this thread...

 

[Craig B]

Read this thread...

Do any particular parts of it contain the arguments you find convincing, and wish to draw to my attention? What are these?

 

[Foolmewunz]

I watched the video.

Fifth Request: What do you want to discuss?

 

[King of the Americas]

The oldest ruins of GT are the 'most impressive' logistically speaking. Those that followed, at the same site, "digressed" meaning that the build techniques lost detail and logistic difficulty.

The oldest site was buried, as to preserve it to be dated to this younger dryas period, the "great catastrophe" that disrupted the building techniques.

Within the video, you'd have seen this, HAD YOU FLIPPING WATCHED IT!

 

[Craig B]

I watched the video.

Fifth Request: What do you want to discuss?

Not #124, as far as I can make out.

 

[King of the Americas]

I watched the video.

Fifth Request: What do you want to discuss?

Let's start with microspherules?

Is the data convincing? Are these evidences of an asteroid impact that happened across the now U.S. Canada border?

Is the date arrived at, in alignment with the Scablands flood?

 

[Craig B]

The oldest ruins of GT are the 'most impressive' logistically speaking. Those that followed, at the same site, "digressed" meaning that the build techniques lost detail and logistic difficulty.

The oldest site was buried, as to preserve it to be dated to this younger dryas period, the "great catastrophe" that disrupted the building techniques.

Within the video, you'd have seen this, HAD YOU FLIPPING WATCHED IT!

Now we can discuss the points of "logistical impressiveness" and "digression". That will be interesting. You have drawn our attention to that element of the video, for which my thanks.

Are you stating that these criteria, measured (if indeed they are capable of being unambiguously measured) in a single site, are robust indicators of the course of technological achievement?

 

[King of the Americas]

Now we can discuss the points of "logistical impressiveness" and "digression". That will be interesting. You have drawn our attention to that element of the video, for which my thanks.

Are you stating that these criteria, measured (if indeed they are capable of being unambiguously measured) in a single site, are robust indicators of the course of technological achievement?

How can we discuss this, if you won't look at the evidence provided.

Unambiguously measured?

Okay, let's look at how we date pyramids...the "bent" pyramid is generally accepted to be one of the first, because the technology was not yet perfected...its initial design was too steep, causing the bottom to crumble... Those that came after did not suffer this defect. This we might assume, was "progression" because the buildings became more sound, more structurally impressive.

At GT, the first oldest ruins, are "bigger," more detailed, and thus required a larger workforce to complete.

AGAIN, for us to fully discuss this, YOU NEED TO WATCH THE VIDEO.

 

[Craig B]

How can we discuss this, if you won't look at the evidence provided.

Unambiguously measured?

Okay, let's look at how we date pyramids...the "bent" pyramid is generally accepted to be one of the first, because the technology was not yet perfected...its initial design was too steep, causing the bottom to crumble... Those that came after did not suffer this defect. This we might assume, was "progression" because the buildings became more sound, more structurally impressive.

At GT, the first oldest ruins, are "bigger," more detailed, and thus required a larger workforce to complete.

AGAIN, for us to fully discuss this, YOU NEED TO WATH THE VIDEO.

Your pyramid argument is worthy of discussion. Here is material evidence. Look at the column headed "volume" here, and tell me if later pyramids are always larger than earlier ones. I say not. They reached a quite early peak and then "digressed" logistically. That's a very common cultural phenomenon.

 

[King of the Americas]

Your pyramid argument is worthy of discussion. Here is material evidence. Look at the column headed "volume" here, and tell me if later pyramids are always larger than earlier ones. I say not. They reached a quite early peak and then "digressed" logistically. That's a very common cultural phenomenon.

Losing skills is a common cultural phenomena?

You understand how technology evolves, right?

Losing technology requires some sort of 'disruption'...are you saying that ruins that indicate this "digression" are common throughout the world? If so, isn't THAT evidence of a global catastrophe???

---

*I'd also add, that I find Hawaas and his dogmatic adherence to his timeline for the pyramids' constructions is dubious.

PLEASE WATCH THE VIDEO.

 

[Craig B]

... required a larger workforce to complete.

That is not a dependable sign of technical progress, even assuming it has been correctly postulated in your source.

The replacement of hand operated querns by water mills in the ancient world permitted the expansion of flour milling very substantially, and facilitated the growth of urban civilisation.

More flour was produced, but a larger workforce was not required to perform this task. Technological development occurred instead. We may soon, I hope, be able to turn our discussion to that topic.

The reduction in the sizes of pyramids is therefore not an indication that skills were being lost in Ancient Egypt. Attention can be switched from one area of technical activity to another. In the Old Kingdom there were big pyramids, but no wheels. Later there were smaller pyramids, or underground chamber tombs, a digression. But there were chariots then.

Overall technical development across an entire culture can't be assessed by measuring the sizes of tombs in particular sites.

 

[King of the Americas]

That is not a dependable sign of technical progress, even assuming it has been correctly postulated in your source.

The replacement of hand operated querns by water mills in the ancient world permitted the expansion of flour milling very substantially, and facilitated the growth of urban civilisation.

More flour was produced, but a larger workforce was not required to perform this task. Technological development occurred instead. We may soon, I hope, be able to turn our discussion to that topic.

"Detail" & "Logistic Difficulty"...made the first ruins "more advanced."

ALSO, remains of the following generations, show that the population 'shrank'... They "devolved" into hunter gatherers.

The oldest ruins at GT indicate a bigger population and more advanced building techniques, than those that followed. The first ruins are dated to the younger dryas catastrophe.

 

[King of the Americas]

....

Overall technical development across an entire culture can't be assessed by measuring the sizes of tombs in particular sites.

AGREED. Finally. A success.

Although, this has little to do with GT.

We have stratified, carbon dated layering. The earliest 'dated' construction was technologically more advanced, than the following constructions, to the point of a reversion to hunter-gatherers-nonbuilders.