Cont: Proof of Immortality, V for Very long discussion

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- Will anybody volunteer? LL, js, Agatha, Hans, whoever?


I specifically un-volunteer. I did this with you already, at least twice. You ignored me. You ran from our private debate back to the public one. Moreover, you even ran from our discussion about your concept of effective debate.

Your method presumes that a question has two sides, and that each side can nominate their champion. Further, your methods don't even aim to get at some sort of truth, but only to provide lots of words for some invisible audience that you think exists.

I do not believe that my views represent everyone. I do not believe in arguing against someone who will never be convinced of his folly. I do not believe that you are even capable of sticking with a single issue until it is fully exhausted.

For example, you were asked to provide falsifiable evidence that immateriality even exists. Your answer was to cite anecdotes from a book by a believer who had hand-picked and edited the anecdotes. Then you just ignored that topic and wandered onto something else.

My suggestion is the same as it has always been: Do some research. Take a class in logic. Read a book about neuroanatomy. Consult experts. Anything else is a waste of time.
 
This is exactly why I do not trust you at all. You are explicitly stating you will not respect other people's preferences, and will do whatever it takes to make it appear as if you haven't failed utterly and completely.

How shamefully dishonorable...

QFT
 
Don't let them buffalo you, Jabba! They're obviously afraid to debate the best man in the room!

But I'm not afraid! Not even of you! I volunteer! I'll take you on! Choose MEEEEE!

I've already said that you can quote me on your blog, or site, or map, or mimeoed handout, or anyplace! I ain't ascared!

So: One day when you were 14 you had this flash, right? And you have it still? What meds have you tried?

Over to you, Fective Debater.
Sackett,
- Thanks. You get the job.
- So now, please go back to my "opening statement" (#3189 http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=11871107#post11871107) and enter whatever responses you would like. I'll enter them all into my blog, but I'll respond to them only one at a time. For the moment, I'd like to address the sub-issues in order of their appearance in my opening statement. If you would rather that I start somewhere other than the beginning, let me know and I'll see how that works...
 
I have to say, being familiar with their posts and style for many years, sackett is the perfect person for the job. He will bear the skeptical banner joyously and magnificently.

Sackett, go out there and let your freak flag fly!

*Makes popcorn*
 
Sackett,
- Thanks. You get the job.
- So now, please go back to my "opening statement" (#3189 http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=11871107#post11871107) and enter whatever responses you would like. I'll enter them all into my blog, but I'll respond to them only one at a time. For the moment, I'd like to address the sub-issues in order of their appearance in my opening statement. If you would rather that I start somewhere other than the beginning, let me know and I'll see how that works...


Jeez, Jabba, your first point is already borked.


1. If something occurs that is unlikely to occur -- given a particular hypothesis -- the event is evidence against the hypothesis.


If that were true, I'd be unable to draw a card from a deck. I'd turn it over and then you'd argue that it must be a trick deck because it shows the eight of clubs.​
 
Jeez, Jabba, your first point is already borked.





If that were true, I'd be unable to draw a card from a deck. I'd turn it over and then you'd argue that it must be a trick deck because it shows the eight of clubs.​


And, as his overall premise is "my existence is so unlikely under H that something else must be more likely" I find it fascinating that he then proceeds to ignore the fact that what he's proposing is demonstrably far less likely. Indeed, he refuses to put it into his summary much less attempt to address it.​
 
And, as his overall premise is "my existence is so unlikely under H that something else must be more likely" I find it fascinating that he then proceeds to ignore the fact that what he's proposing is demonstrably far less likely. Indeed, he refuses to put it into his summary much less attempt to address it.

Although he's been very evasive about this, I'm pretty sure when he says "my existence" he's talking about the existence of his immaterial soul, not his body.

You might be asking yourself, why would he compare two hypotheses that both include immaterial souls as if they were the only two possibilities, and neglect hypotheses where "my existence" refers only to the physical body? I've never gotten an answer to that.
 
And, as his overall premise is "my existence is so unlikely under H that something else must be more likely" I find it fascinating that he then proceeds to ignore the fact that what he's proposing is demonstrably far less likely. Indeed, he refuses to put it into his summary much less attempt to address it.

It's something I've just commented on in the "Is the Earth spinning or stationary" thread, that seems to be a staple of woo. The form is, "Outcome A is predicted to be highly unlikely by conventional understanding / scientific theory / narrative T, therefore we must reject T and accept my alternative theory U," with the omission of the caveat, "...which either does not offer a superior explanation of outcome A, suggests an even lower probability, or fails to explain it at all." It's common in the various conspiracy theory discussions, widespread in all kinds of pseudoscience and paranormal threads, and, it seems, the primary foundation of this one. Is there a formal name for it?

Dave
 
Although he's been very evasive about this, I'm pretty sure when he says "my existence" he's talking about the existence of his immaterial soul, not his body.

You might be asking yourself, why would he compare two hypotheses that both include immaterial souls as if they were the only two possibilities, and neglect hypotheses where "my existence" refers only to the physical body? I've never gotten an answer to that.

Except that he said that he agrees that under H, everything is physical. Which rules out his immaterial soul thingy. But when it's then pointed out what that means, he goes off again about how we're missing something (which has no characteristics, definition, or reason beyond that he wants there to be something). He agrees it's an emergent property of the brain until it's pointed out what that means, then he pretends no one has ever demolished his claims and starts over.
 
Sackett,
- Thanks. You get the job.
- So now, please go back to my "opening statement" (#3189 http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=11871107#post11871107) and enter whatever responses you would like. I'll enter them all into my blog, but I'll respond to them only one at a time. For the moment, I'd like to address the sub-issues in order of their appearance in my opening statement. If you would rather that I start somewhere other than the beginning, let me know and I'll see how that works...

You can't even tell when someone is pulling your leg.
 
Jabba,
Please consider very seriously what you are requesting, here.

Your founding premise has been that you can proof yourself immortal using Bayesian statistics. Bayesian statistics has its origin in Bayes' Theorem. Anyone familiar with Bayesian statistics is intimately familiar with Bayes' Theorem.

Even someone who had, let's be polite, forgotten the exact formulation of Bayes' Theorem could still perform the trivial and obvious Google search with the terms "bayes theorem".

With me so far? Now, given your apparent unfamiliarity with Bayes' Theorem and your unwillingness or inability to do a simple Google search, what should the we conclude?

Diplomatic yet powerful. I award you full points. :thumbsup:
 
And, as his overall premise is "my existence is so unlikely under H that something else must be more likely"...

I think it's more accurate to say his premise is, "My existence is so unlikely under H that anything else must be more likely." He told us all he needed was a "reasonable alternative." While he postures his immortality theory as that reasonable alternative, the point he made was that any reasonable alternative would do.

As I've previously discussed, this is the most common approach in fringe argumentation. The conventional theory or narrative is dismissed according to a particular standard of proof that argues the theory is unacceptably improbable. Some desired alternative theory or narrative is then put forward as one that must therefore hold (or at least be considered) no matter how improbable or unsupported it seems on its face. The claimant often argues it doesn't need substantial proof because its competitor was eliminated. "Once you have eliminated the impossible," says Sherlock Holmes, "whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth." Not a rule of logic, and in fact Sir Arthur Conan Doyle was not the brightest bulb on the Christmas tree.

In this case -- as you go on to note -- Jabba's choice among the alternatives is unfortunate because it depends, probabilistically speaking, on the hypothesis Jabba dismissed. Not all Bayesian inferences go that way.

H is the materialist hypothesis, under which consciousness is an emergent property. Jabba wants to call it "OOFLAM," which is in fact the consequent to such a theory: we have at most one finite lifetime. But in order to reckon anything like P(E|H), where E is any event, H must embody some line of reasoning that leads to H. That explanatory power is exactly what is meant by P(E|H) -- how plausibly would materialism explain something if we suppose that the thing happened?

The proffered E helps us correct the problem. E is "I exist as a self-aware being." (Although we did get Jabba at least to concede that he can't pick a particular person.) We render P(E|OOFLAM) textually as "How plausible is it that I have a sense of self if we have at most only one finite life?" An obvious non sequitur. The several consequents of materialism don't themselves have explanatory power. They don't provide an operative line of reasoning that allows us to reason quantitatively about P(E|OOFLAM). Hence OOFLAM is a red herring.

The scientific position is materialism. Specifically applied to human life, the scientific theory is that everything a human being is, including its self-awareness, is a product of the physical organism. A consequent of that is the limitation of that self-awareness to the term of the physical body, which we observe to be finite. Mortality follows from materialism. It's not a separate theory.

If H is materialism, then ~H is everything that isn't materialism. And it follows that not everything that isn't materialism leads to immortality. We can have an immaterial aspect to our being, somewhat independent of the organism, that may still not be immortal. It may, for example, cease to exist a few minutes after the physical organism, never to exist again.

I'm getting there, I promise.

So Jabba purports to compute P(H|E) -- if we correct his formulation as jsfisher did -- as P(H|E) = P(E|H) * P(H) / P(E). That would be usable if suitable values for the terms could be found. (And if you could somehow avoid the Texas sharpshooter fallacy inherent to Jabba's E.) But because this is just a mathematical version of the typical fringe error, he's only half done. Having computed, as he thinks, a very low value for P(H|E), he thinks he can conclude by corollary that P(~H|E) must be very large. But ~H is not "immortality." ~H is just "not materialism." This could be why Jabba, years ago, begged to be allowed only to prove instead that materialism was false. He might have seen that that's all his false-dilemma formulation could ever have shown.

As I've previously noted, within ~H there may be specific hypotheses whose consequent would be immortality. But because they would form only a proper subset of ~H, you can't reckon any one of their probabilities as anything except something less than P(~H|E) -- perhaps something drastically less.

If K, L, and M are each separate theories from ~H to explain self-awareness in the physical organism, then Jabba would still have to compute

P(K|E) = P(E|K) * P(K) / P(E)
P(L|E) = P(E|L) * P(L) / P(E)
P(M|E) = P(E|M) * P(M) / P(E)

He doesn't get to assume any of them are greater than P(H|E). Moreover, in this particular problem we observe that for all x in {K, L, M}, P(x|E) ≤ P(H|E). All theories leading to immortality must assume at least the physical body that's observed in E, but that's all H requires. His math just doesn't work out.

Indeed, he refuses to put it into his summary much less attempt to address it.

It seems this is the new order of "I guess I just don't understand." Whatever he doesn't decide to address simply doesn't exist and doesn't affect what he states as his argument. By rights I should have included it as a fatal flaw in my summary. But I named only the fatal flaws that arose out of his latest manifesto, and Jabba has said he will limit his anointed critic to a serial examination of responses to his claims. It doesn't appear that the designated critic will be able to raise issues not strictly covered in Jabba's claim. Cross-examination only.

Obviously Jabba doesn't believe he can prevail without exerting disproportionate control over the debate. That's why venue-shopping is a big part of the fringe meta-argument strategy.
 
Although he's been very evasive about this, I'm pretty sure when he says "my existence" he's talking about the existence of his immaterial soul, not his body.

Yup, Fatal Flaw 7 and Dishonest Tactic 1.

You might be asking yourself, why would he compare two hypotheses that both include immaterial souls as if they were the only two possibilities, and neglect hypotheses where "my existence" refers only to the physical body? I've never gotten an answer to that.

Fatal Flaw 3.
 
Jeez, Jabba, your first point is already borked.





If that were true, I'd be unable to draw a card from a deck. I'd turn it over and then you'd argue that it must be a trick deck because it shows the eight of clubs.​
LL,
- You're right. I should have said that such would be potential evidence against the hypothesis. Though, I do indicate the same in my next statements in that post.​
 
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