Cont: JFK Conspiracy Theories V: Five for Fighting

[RoboTimbo]

You are either confused or are trying to confuse others. I'm saying the small head wound was slightly above the EOP, and it has been repeatedly confirmed that "slightly" means slightly. Dr. Humes only budged from his position when he once claimed that it was slightly lower than that, then he went back to saying it was slightly above. That's more of an expected wiggle room from the memory of someone who spent hours handling the President's body.

MicahJava, are you saying that you have no clue what the results of the autopsy were?

 

[Axxman300]

He's trying to add a second bullet to the head, and he's trying to make the primary shot come from somewhere else other than the TSBD.

To do so he is ignoring the known visual evidence of the two films of the assassination, and he ignores a huge chunk of basic reality to reach for his fantasy. He ignores the fact that the President's head was not level with the shoulders, that Elm Street is inclined, and that it was a short-range shot.

Like all CTists, he places an unrealistic level of expertise upon the Secret Service, FBI, and the Warren Commission that we don't even see today with all of our high technologies. Like all CTists he assumes all human recollection is 100% accurate, and does not degrade with time...unless someone witnessed something which undermines his theory, and in those MANY cases those witnesses cannot be trusted.

I used to play the same game. I wanted Badge Man to be real, I wanted there to be someone else on the 6th floor with a Mauser, I wanted a direct chain linking Oswald to Ruby to the Mob to the CIA to LBJ to Hunt Oil to the military industrial complex to...THEM! I read every JFK conspiracy book, Mark Lane and Jim Mars were my prophets. People who bought the official WC conclusions were suckers, sheep, or blind, and I was smarter than all of them because I knew the truth....

The "Truth" is that eventually reality will kick you in the groin, or somewhere else where you can no longer honestly believe silly things and look yourself in the mirror, and believe you're a moderately smart person.

 

[bknight]

I do no proof of photographic manipulation, nor did I ever argue it.

If you have no evidence of manipulation, then you shouldn't post such nonsense. Believing something and being able to prove it by data analysis is quit different stop using your beliefs and start using the facts. You should go back to that thread entry and either erase or blot out the part of your post and then never use it again, scratch it from your thoughts.

 

[bknight]

He's trying to add a second bullet to the head, and he's trying to make the primary shot come from somewhere else other than the TSBD.

To do so he is ignoring the known visual evidence of the two films of the assassination, and he ignores a huge chunk of basic reality to reach for his fantasy. He ignores the fact that the President's head was not level with the shoulders, that Elm Street is inclined, and that it was a short-range shot.

Like all CTists, he places an unrealistic level of expertise upon the Secret Service, FBI, and the Warren Commission that we don't even see today with all of our high technologies. Like all CTists he assumes all human recollection is 100% accurate, and does not degrade with time...unless someone witnessed something which undermines his theory, and in those MANY cases those witnesses cannot be trusted.

I used to play the same game. I wanted Badge Man to be real, I wanted there to be someone else on the 6th floor with a Mauser, I wanted a direct chain linking Oswald to Ruby to the Mob to the CIA to LBJ to Hunt Oil to the military industrial complex to...THEM! I read every JFK conspiracy book, Mark Lane and Jim Mars were my prophets. People who bought the official WC conclusions were suckers, sheep, or blind, and I was smarter than all of them because I knew the truth....

The "Truth" is that eventually reality will kick you in the groin, or somewhere else where you can no longer honestly believe silly things and look yourself in the mirror, and believe you're a moderately smart person.

In short you found it difficult to believe that a nobody could bring down the most powerful man on the planet.
Then coming to your senses after studying the evidence, you found that yes it was probable that a nobody brought down the most powerful man on the planet all by himself.

 

[OKBob]

In short you found it difficult to believe that a nobody could bring down the most powerful man on the planet.
Then coming to your senses after studying the evidence, you found that yes it was probable that a nobody brought down the most powerful man on the planet all by himself.

With folks like MJ, I wonder if this forum contributes at all to the maturation of logic. MJ seems enamored of his personal judgments and rather ghoulish frissons. If, as Axxman, Hank, and others attest, graduation from CT is a slow, attritional process, are we actually accelerating that process at all here? I can't see that Robert Harris benefited from the patient efforts of JayUtah and others. He's still mistaking inference for evidence on other forums.

 

[HSienzant]

Did I say I thought the body was altered?

You brought up body alteration by paraphrasing a David Lifton paraphrase of a Dan Rather point, pretending Rather's point didn't make any sense. I had to explain to you how Rather's point made perfect sense.

I note you neither affirm nor deny whether you believe in body alteration. Can you take a stand on that subject now?

Hank

 

[Axxman300]

In short you found it difficult to believe that a nobody could bring down the most powerful man on the planet.
Then coming to your senses after studying the evidence, you found that yes it was probable that a nobody brought down the most powerful man on the planet all by himself.

Something like that. It started with my dad, he said he didn't believe Oswald acted alone. I was seven years old, and at that age your dad knows everything.

I've said before that after I went to Dallas it was clear that Oswald did it, and we were lucky he had the Carcano instead of an M-14, or M1. I was shocked that anyone who had been to Dealey Plaza would believe otherwise, and I realized I'd bought into a lie.

Worse, I though all of those assassination "researchers" had actually done research - most have not, instead they repeat fictions, and draw stories from other CTists. There are a few who have done extensive research, and logged the hours doing real work (James Ellroy is one), but even then their theory hinges on questionable testimony from low-level maffia goons, 6-degrees of separation witnesses who were there, but are more interested in getting their name in a history book by shading the facts, and a lot of creative interpretation of documents.

At no point do ANY of them take the Warren Commission, FBI, or Secret Service seriously, and refuse to accept any of their conclusions. The funny thing is that the recollections of the men involved in the investigation has never changed in 54 years, but the stories of fringe CT sources seems to change with the wind direction.

 

[bknight]

With folks like MJ, I wonder if this forum contributes at all to the maturation of logic. MJ seems enamored of his personal judgments and rather ghoulish frissons. If, as Axxman, Hank, and others attest, graduation from CT is a slow, attritional process, are we actually accelerating that process at all here? I can't see that Robert Harris benefited from the patient efforts of JayUtah and others. He's still mistaking inference for evidence on other forums.

I have dealt with many CT's and to a "man" I have not seen any of them accept science in general and physics in particular or reform. They just keep trotting out it can't be proved when backed into a corner. Some have fanciful "explanations" others have denial and still others have out and out lies/deceits/fantasies. MJ seems to have many of these characteristics. For example his "list" has criminal manipulation of autopsy images, posted by him and yet he says he has never argued for that idea. Strange.
Jay has taken many to task and rarely makes an error.

 

[BStrong]

Something like that. It started with my dad, he said he didn't believe Oswald acted alone. I was seven years old, and at that age your dad knows everything.

I've said before that after I went to Dallas it was clear that Oswald did it, and we were lucky he had the Carcano instead of an M-14, or M1. I was shocked that anyone who had been to Dealey Plaza would believe otherwise, and I realized I'd bought into a lie.

Worse, I though all of those assassination "researchers" had actually done research - most have not, instead they repeat fictions, and draw stories from other CTists. There are a few who have done extensive research, and logged the hours doing real work (James Ellroy is one), but even then their theory hinges on questionable testimony from low-level maffia goons, 6-degrees of separation witnesses who were there, but are more interested in getting their name in a history book by shading the facts, and a lot of creative interpretation of documents.

At no point do ANY of them take the Warren Commission, FBI, or Secret Service seriously, and refuse to accept any of their conclusions. The funny thing is that the recollections of the men involved in the investigation has never changed in 54 years, but the stories of fringe CT sources seems to change with the wind direction.

Sane thing here, except between the old man and my uncle, his older brother, I knew that they knew what they were talking about mechanics wise about the actual shooting end of the equation, so if they said it was mafiosi, it had to be mafiosi. That, coupled with what my father said about LHO the first time they showed his face on TV - That ******* won't last a week" - when he didn't, I had no question that the mafia had done the deed.

Got out and about in the world and learned a few things, I lost my blinders. My father and uncle knew a bunch more than I do, but if Jackie had turned towards JFK and shot him in the limo they'd have thought the mafia was behind it.

I believe that Elroy loves his narrative as much or more than he actually believes it to be true, but Elroy's universe as it regards the books in that trilogy is a genuine part of the conspiracy whisper stream that drives even this thread. Elroy does believe (from his mouth to my ear) that JFK brought his murder on himself by getting in bed with the mob prior to his election.

Fiction is so much more entertaining and cool than reality.

The conceit that the assassination had to be a conspiracy because (fill in) is a foreseeable result of individuals basing their worldview on popular fiction instead of experience in the subject matter.

The sad fact is that in this world, one ******* with a firearm (or any other lethal weapon) can turn the world upside down if they have access to a specific target - I'm thinking John Lennon more than JFK here - and contrary to CTist orthodoxy, a "lone nut" has a hell of a better chance of pulling off something terrible than does a scheme involving a patsy, the unseen hidden hand, the MIC, the Jews, The communists, the Cubans, the doctors and speculation ad infinitum that has been tossed into the JFK assassination conspiracy zeitgeist.

All it took was a little man with a rifle that wanted to be a big man.

No altered headwounds required.

 

[Regnad Kcin]

I've said before that after I went to Dallas it was clear that Oswald did it, and we were lucky he had the Carcano instead of an M-14, or M1. I was shocked that anyone who had been to Dealey Plaza would believe otherwise, and I realized I'd bought into a lie.

As I don't know the particulars of these weapons, could you explain this?

 

[BStrong]

As I don't know the particulars of these weapons, could you explain this?

The M1 Garand was the rifle LHO was trained on in the Corps - WWII era gas operated semi-auto rifle chambered in the 30/06 service rifle caliber -8 shot en bloc clip. Heavy, accurate and powerful,

The M14 is essentially a product improved version of the Garand. Modified gas system, the receiver shortened, selective fire (meaning semi or full auto, for practical use full auto is pretty much a waste of time and effort on one of these) chambered in the then-new 7.62 NATO cartridge. Due to higher chamber pressure the 7.62 NATO is the ballistic equivalent of the earlier 30/06 in a shorter length ( 51 mm as oppossed to 63 mm, nominal) cartridge case.

The Garand was commercially available at the time of the assassination, the M14 wasn't, but that doesn't mean that there weren't unregistered examples running around loose.

 

[Hans]

and we were lucky he had the Carcano instead of an M-14, or M1.

Why was this lucky?

Edited to add: Do you mean with a SA weapon he could have killed everyone in the car?

 

[BStrong]

Why was this lucky?

Edited to add: Do you mean with a SA weapon he could have killed everyone in the car?

I don't necessarily believe that LHO had much empathy with the other individuals in the vehicle, but had LHO had a Garand rather than the Carcano he might have had an easier time pulling off the assassination and had he been using the then commonly available M2 armor piercing 30/06 ammo

https://www.pewpewtactical.com/30-06-m2-ap-armor-piercing-penetration-tests/

There may have been more wounding of others of the Connally type.

For interested parties, I've found that the M2 ap ammo is the most accurate surplus ammo available for the Garand outside of actual lake City or Gold Medal Match ammo and it used to be dirt cheap.

 

[MicahJava]

You brought up body alteration by paraphrasing a David Lifton paraphrase of a Dan Rather point, pretending Rather's point didn't make any sense. I had to explain to you how Rather's point made perfect sense.

I note you neither affirm nor deny whether you believe in body alteration. Can you take a stand on that subject now?

Hank

I will wait to research that subject when Lifton's Final Charade comes out, but for right now I will just say I find it disturbing that no Parkland witness saw that big red triangle on Kennedy's forehead as shown on the autopsy photos.

 

[MicahJava]

What they remembered is less important than what was recorded and photographed.

And yes, wounds on one bone can be described in relation to others.

Do you understand why records are photographed, and measurements recorded in the autopsy record?
Do you understand why doctors don't simply rely on their memory?

It's a little different when you have contemporary evidence, like the autopsy report that corroborates what each doctor and witness swears to. I would think of a better argument rather than squabbling over the idea that everybody was just hallucinating. And now you'll screech that you never literally said everybody at the autopsy was "hallucinating". Actually, you kind of are. The JFK autopsy is like Rashomon, everybody remembers it a little differently and each one contradicts the official story. I'm just trying to make sense of it all, and of all things you can be sure about, you can be as sure as you'll ever be that there was a small wound low in the head near the EOP. Nobody has ever shown that the X-rays are incompatible with such a wound, so nothing has to be faked for this to be true, unlike a lot of other interpretations of JFK's wounds.

 

[MicahJava]

Other than scalps being stretched and the like...

I've already explained why the scalp is being stretched back in the BOH photographs.

 

[MicahJava]

He's trying to add a second bullet to the head, and he's trying to make the primary shot come from somewhere else other than the TSBD.

To do so he is ignoring the known visual evidence of the two films of the assassination, and he ignores a huge chunk of basic reality to reach for his fantasy. He ignores the fact that the President's head was not level with the shoulders, that Elm Street is inclined, and that it was a short-range shot.

I have no idea what you're talking about. That's not what I've been saying at all. The small head wound was most likely an entry from behind, and the large head wound was from either direction, it doesn't really matter once you have two head shots.

Like all CTists, he places an unrealistic level of expertise upon the Secret Service, FBI, and the Warren Commission that we don't even see today with all of our high technologies. Like all CTists he assumes all human recollection is 100% accurate, and does not degrade with time...unless someone witnessed something which undermines his theory, and in those MANY cases those witnesses cannot be trusted.

I used to play the same game. I wanted Badge Man to be real, I wanted there to be someone else on the 6th floor with a Mauser, I wanted a direct chain linking Oswald to Ruby to the Mob to the CIA to LBJ to Hunt Oil to the military industrial complex to...THEM! I read every JFK conspiracy book, Mark Lane and Jim Mars were my prophets. People who bought the official WC conclusions were suckers, sheep, or blind, and I was smarter than all of them because I knew the truth....

The "Truth" is that eventually reality will kick you in the groin, or somewhere else where you can no longer honestly believe silly things and look yourself in the mirror, and believe you're a moderately smart person.

I would say if you "wanted badge man to be real", you never took this subject very seriously.

 

[MicahJava]

With folks like MJ, I wonder if this forum contributes at all to the maturation of logic. MJ seems enamored of his personal judgments and rather ghoulish frissons. If, as Axxman, Hank, and others attest, graduation from CT is a slow, attritional process, are we actually accelerating that process at all here? I can't see that Robert Harris benefited from the patient efforts of JayUtah and others. He's still mistaking inference for evidence on other forums.

Frankly, you all seem completely dumbfounded when confronted with the evidence and implications of the EOP wound. So no, you're not accelerating the process of convincing me of anything.

 

[Axxman300]

I have no idea what you're talking about. That's not what I've been saying at all. The small head wound was most likely an entry from behind, and the large head wound was from either direction, it doesn't really matter once you have two head shots.

In other words, a second head shot...that nobody saw.

I would say if you "wanted badge man to be real", you never took this subject very seriously.

I will remind everyone that you have come to the conspiracy late in the game. In the 1970s the "documentary" The Men Who Killed Kennedy was all the rage, and Badge Man was a French assassin hired by the CIA/Maffia crew. We got ten years out of Badge Man until new skeptics arrived on the scene and tore it all apart with that dang logic and factual information stuff.

The same guys who put Badge Man to bed also buried the line of BS you have been shoveling with you "but what about the head wound" nonsense.

 

[Axxman300]

I will wait to research that subject when Lifton's Final Charade comes out, but for right now I will just say I find it disturbing that no Parkland witness saw that big red triangle on Kennedy's forehead as shown on the autopsy photos.

If only it was Lifton's final charade.