Destroyed Atlantis = Menorah

[King of the Americas]

You're right. It wasn't meant to be an argument. It's an observation. I'm not basing any argument on it. Partly because that would border on the fallacious, partly because you've been ignoring everyone's arguments anyway.

I've seen no arguments.

What evidence do you employ to dismiss Plato's writings as pure fiction?

 

[Porpoise of Life]

I don't need to. I'm not claiming that Atlantis couldn't have existed.
You are the one making claims.
Specifically, the claim that a crudely scratched rainbow on a rock in Spain links Atlantis to the Jews and their Menorah.

A claim you have declined to support in favor of asking other posters to provide evidence for all kinds of strawmen.

So, are you going to support your claim that the carving is a missing link between Atlantis and the Jewish menorah?

 

[Belz...]

Ahhh, I think I understand your confusion...

Story A contains a falsehood, so the rest of story A is an unreliable historical source.

No, that has no bearing on what I said or implied.

The point is that you seem to disregard Plato's words when they are inconvenient to you, not when you have a good reason to. In other words you are tailoring Plato to your own liking, supporting your preconceived conclusion.

In other words, this isn't about Plato's claims or ideas, or whether he was truthful or accurate. It's about what YOU want to believe.

 

[Belz...]

I've seen no arguments.

That is a lie. You've seen plenty. But like Plato's description of Atlantis they are inconvenient, and thus ignored.

 

[The Greater Fool]

We have the tale, now we look for evidence of it...a sunken city/island, where he said to find it, out of what he said it was made out of...

Correct, a tale, a well understood fictional dialogue designed to advance a philosophy, not history. Every mention since is someone trying to make the fabrication real, as you are.

By your standards of evidence, Tralfamadore must be real. Similar to Plato's story, Vonnegut begins his story with "All this happened, more or less" which obviously means he had access to information we obviously don't. We must accept Tralfamadore as a real location.

 

[Belz...]

We have the tale, now we look for evidence of it...a sunken city/island, where he said to find it, out of what he said it was made out of...

That's not where he said we'd find it, but then you do pick and choose what you believe about what he said.

 

[Vixen]

Let me play 'devil's advocate' and help out KotA.

it is acknowledged amongst Ancient Historians that a Great Flood - as alluded to in major religions - did indeed take place some five thousand years ago. The region is said to be around the Euphrates area of Turkey.

Suppose Plato was referring to the mythical yet real city of Atlantis, covered and destroyed during the flood, but yet may rise up thrust from the sea bed, as the sea level falls. The populations around the mediterranean get to recognise it because... um... it looks just like the Menorah. An aide memoire, if you like, of a long lost memory kept alive by the festival of Hanukka.

 

[Belz...]

Let me play 'devil's advocate' and help out KotA.

it is acknowledged amongst Ancient Historians that a Great Flood - as alluded to in major religions - did indeed take place some five thousand years ago. The region is said to be around the Euphrates area of Turkey.

Suppose Plato was referring to the mythical yet real city of Atlantis, covered and destroyed during the flood, but yet may rise up thrust from the sea bed, as the sea level falls. The populations around the mediterranean get to recognise it because... um... it looks just like the Menorah. An aide memoire, if you like, of a long lost memory kept alive by the festival of Hanukka.

Yes, of course if we alter all the details of the story we don't like, we can make it fit reality. I could do that with Star Wars if you give me a few minutes.

 

[Porpoise of Life]

Posting random words that don't represent anything the Greeks or Jews believed, followed up by a non sequitur that is not supported by anything is not playing devil's advocate, it's just giving OP a chance to divert attention away from the fact that he has not shown any evidence for, or even conjecture about how his claims work.

How does the carving connect Atlantis and the Jews?
So far, all we have is 'Atlantis was circular, these arches are kind of circular, and a menorah also has arches, so thats how these symbols are connected with each other and Atlantis'.

 

[Vixen]

Posting random words that don't represent anything the Greeks or Jews believed, followed up by a non sequitur that is not supported by anything is not playing devil's advocate, it's just giving OP a chance to divert attention away from the fact that he has not shown any evidence for, or even conjecture about how his claims work.

How does the carving connect Atlantis and the Jews?
So far, all we have is 'Atlantis was circular, these arches are kind of circular, and a menorah also has arches, so thats how these symbols are connected with each other and Atlantis'.

The Jews do speak of the Great Flood in Genesis (Noah's Ark). The instructions for fashioning a Menorah comes shortly after, in Exodus.

 

[Belz...]

The Jews do speak of the Great Flood in Genesis (Noah's Ark). The instructions for fashioning a Menorah comes shortly after, in Exodus.

Genesis also speaks of night and day before there was a sun, and instructs people to not pick up sticks on a Saturday.

Perhaps looking for history in a mythological book isn't the best idea.

 

[Porpoise of Life]

Many mythologies speak of similar things. Natural disasters are really common in them.

The fact that both stories mention a flood is not evidence that a stylized city map was adopted by a culture thousands of years and hundreds of miles removed and then turned into a candelabra.

 

[BStrong]

^Not an argument of any kind^

The boy said coyly while he looked into the mirror.

 

[Hokulele]

The Jews do speak of the Great Flood in Genesis (Noah's Ark). The instructions for fashioning a Menorah comes shortly after, in Exodus.

Wait, are you claiming that the instructions in Exodus were actually written chronologically close to the flood myth recounted in Genesis based on the fact that the books are collated next to each other in the bible?

Whoa.

 

[Belz...]

Wait, are you claiming that the instructions in Exodus were actually written chronologically close to the flood myth recounted in Genesis based on the fact that the books are collated next to each other in the bible?

Whoa.

By that logic the Apocalypse happened right after Paul finished writing his letters.

 

[King of the Americas]

...

The point is that you seem to disregard Plato's words when they are inconvenient to you, not when you have a good reason to. In other words you are tailoring Plato to your own liking, supporting your preconceived conclusion...

No, I am not.

Platos words are what they are. I am not tailoring or changing them. I am saying we should use the words as guides to the actual location.

You do understand how the telephone game works, right? The further you get from the event, and the more people communicating between lead to embellishments... What Plato heard might not have been what happened, and Plato himself may have added something.

History has to be mined for truth, not taken at face value.

 

[King of the Americas]

...

How does the carving connect Atlantis and the Jews?
So far, all we have is 'Atlantis was circular, these arches are kind of circular, and a menorah also has arches, so thats how these symbols are connected with each other and Atlantis'.

You're forgetting date, location, and that the 'Jewish' menorah is sans provenance.

 

[King of the Americas]

By that logic the Apocalypse happened right after Paul finished writing his letters.

No.

I am saying the bible doesn't say anything about the piece. No mention of what it represents, or where it came from.

I presented the biblical evidence as proof that the symbol was adopted, nothing more.

 

[Porpoise of Life]

You're forgetting date, location, and that the 'Jewish' menorah is sans provenance.

The dating isn't given.
The location is not in an island in the Atlantic, and is a couple thousand miles from Israel. So no connection to either Atlantis or the Jews.
And the fact that the menorah did not exist before the Jews did in no way suggests that they modeled their candlestick after a rock in Spain.

 

[Belz...]

You do understand how the telephone game works, right? The further you get from the event, and the more people communicating between lead to embellishments...

Except that it makes it more and more difficult to find the original meaning, and yet here you are, claiming to be able to do that.

What Plato heard might not have been what happened, and Plato himself may have added something.

That's exactly the problem: you are picking and choosing what is correct and what is not. You have no basis to distinguish them.