UK General Election

[The Don]

The Tory Party haven't definitely promised not to round up all the poor and have them shot. That'll probably be in the 2022 manifesto. "We definitely won't put in place extermination of the poor for the next few years, though we will look at ways in which we can eliminate a few of them for now"

Look I get it, you don't trust the Conservatives and their policies are not ones you agree with but ridiculous hyperbole like this doesn't really help you make your case IMO - or if you genuinely buy into the fact that the Conservatives are evil monsters out to destroy the country then the next few years will be excruciating for you

 

[NWO Sentryman]

I'm wondering what would happen after Corbyn's defeat (Because LFI he needs a miracle to win the election). Would he stand aside for new blood or would he try to stay on as head of Labour?

 

[katy_did]

I hope the Scots Nats here have noted this, from the same source:

A referendum on Scottish independence cannot take place until the Brexit process has played out and it should not take place unless there is public consent for it to happen​

How might they test such public consent? Which public? Interesting.

Surely the only way to measure "public consent" for a referendum is if a party promising a referendum wins the most seats in Scotland, which barring a huge turnaround for the Tories, seems almost certain to happen.

Is Theresa May planning to hold a referendum to decide whether a referendum should happen? Or government by the latest YouGov opinion poll (but only when it suits, of course)?

May is positively Trumpian in her hypocrisy and double think.

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

Look I get it, you don't trust the Conservatives and their policies are not ones you agree with but ridiculous hyperbole like this doesn't really help you make your case IMO - or if you genuinely buy into the fact that the Conservatives are evil monsters out to destroy the country then the next few years will be excruciating for you

Ridiculous hyperbole like what? Like saying that if someone hasn't said they aren't going to leave the ECHR then they might do it?

The Tories are openly saying that they will look at leaving once Brexit is dealt with and people are welcoming that as good news?!?

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

Surely the only way to measure "public consent" for a referendum is if a party promising a referendum wins the most seats in Scotland, which barring a huge turnaround for the Tories, seems almost certain to happen.

Public consent done and dusted. Scottish Government was elected and voted to have one. Just more nonsense from Theresa May here.

Is Theresa May planning to hold a referendum to decide whether a referendum should happen? Or government by the latest YouGov opinion poll (but only when it suits, of course)?

May is positively Trumpian in her hypocrisy and double think.

She is. She is merely trying to call the bluff of the SNP here because she can. She has no other justification for her position. She's also being a bit of an idiot because nothing will persuade the waverer more than being told by Theresa May they can't.

 

[baron]

After hearing the Conservative's manifesto promise for a 100% tax on the elderly I will, for the first time in my life, be voting Lib Dems. This horror trumps the Lib Dem's anti-democratic stance on BREXIT, which to be honest doesn't affect me personally much one way or another (although I did make a bit off the back of the weak pound).

 

[The Don]

Ridiculous hyperbole like what? Like saying that if someone hasn't said they aren't going to leave the ECHR then they might do it?

No, ridiculous hyperbole like:

The Tory Party haven't definitely promised not to round up all the poor and have them shot. That'll probably be in the 2022 manifesto.

....and the idea that the entire Conservative party, and Theresa May in particular are some kind of cartoon villain.

 

[MikeG]

Surely the only way to measure "public consent" for a referendum is if a party promising a referendum wins the most seats in Scotland, which barring a huge turnaround for the Tories, seems almost certain to happen..........

That might be right. But it might also be arguable that the total number of votes cast for unionist parties could be counted against the total number of votes cast for secessionist parties and be used to determine whether a referendum is by public consent. I can't see the SNP coming out with 50% + of the vote, so don't be surprised if this is the metric which Theresa May chooses.

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

No, ridiculous hyperbole like:

....and the idea that the entire Conservative party, and Theresa May in particular are some kind of cartoon villain.

It was exactly analagous to you pointing out what others haven't promised not to do. The point I was making is that they don't have to promise NOT to do things that nobody actually thinks you would ever do.

Otherwise you would have to suspect that the Tories actually might round up the poor and have them shot because they haven't promised not to. Which nobody actually does think. The hyperbole was deliberate.

I actually assumed your comment about others not promising not to leave the ECHR was a joke, but your subsequent comments make me think you might actually have been serious.

 

[Craig B]

That might be right. But it might also be arguable that the total number of votes cast for unionist parties could be counted against the total number of votes cast for secessionist parties and be used to determine whether a referendum is by public consent. I can't see the SNP coming out with 50% + of the vote, so don't be surprised if this is the metric which Theresa May chooses.

That would finally annihilate the Labour Party in Scotland, if that party colluded with May in counting Labour votes together with Tory ones, in support of a refusal to give effect to a decision of the Scottish parliament.

 

[MikeG]

That would finally annihilate the Labour Party in Scotland, if that party colluded with May in counting Labour votes together with Tory ones, in support of a refusal to give effect to a decision of the Scottish parliament.

It wouldn't require collusion. In fact, Labour could shout their opposition from the rooftops. All May has to say is ""the votes in favour of the union total more than the votes for secession, therefore there is no public consent for a second referendum.......oh, and I received an overwhelming mandate for this position by the vote in the U-wide general election."

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

That would finally annihilate the Labour Party in Scotland, if that party colluded with May in counting Labour votes together with Tory ones, in support of a refusal to give effect to a decision of the Scottish parliament.

Why even bother?

The anti Scots will take any result as evidence of why Scotland must be subjugated. They are irrelevant. May has made it clear. Self determination will be opposed by Westminster so do it against their will.

 

[Craig B]

It wouldn't require collusion. In fact, Labour could shout their opposition from the rooftops. All May has to say is ""the votes in favour of the union total more than the votes for secession, therefore there is no public consent for a second referendum.......oh, and I received an overwhelming mandate for this position by the vote in the U-wide general election."

Even without collusion the LP would be obliterated if its supporters were dragooned like that. NO won because of the joint campaign Better Together mounted by LP and the Tories, but your suggestion would destroy any possibility of such cooperation.

May I say I hope your predictions are right, because they will make a Yes vote for independence practically inevitable if May was to address such crass and arrogant messages to the Scottish electorate. For there would be an instant response: here's another election, a Scottish Parliament one. Now let's see who gets most votes, SNP and Greens, or the unionist parties ...

 

[MikeG]

Even without collusion the LP would be obliterated if its supporters were dragooned like that. ........

Sorry Craig, but I really don't understand what you are saying here. Dragooned? Nothing whatever is being asked of them in the scenario we are discussing.

 

[Craig B]

Sorry Craig, but I really don't understand what you are saying here. Dragooned? Nothing whatever is being asked of them in the scenario we are discussing.

That is my point. Nothing is "asked" of people who are dragooned. I mean that if people's votes are counted and used for a purpose other than that for which they were cast, and if decisions are based on that procedure, then the voters might have cause to feel abused.

Clearly, many Labour Indyref voters in Scotland were not Unionists, because the Yes areas were (at that time) LP strongholds. These voters may have voted Lab in a previous election, despite that party's Unionism, for more general social-class ideological motives, or on account of affection for a particular candidate. Counting them as unionist voters would be "dragooning" them, and unquestionably abusive.

But I repeat: as an opponent of the Union, I hope May is foolish enough to do this. Like Cromwell at the Battle of Dunbar (1650)^WP

the ministers of the Kirk in attendance are said to have put Leslie under great pressure to press on with an attack ... On observing the Scots manouevring into their new positions, (Cromwell) is said to have exclaimed, perhaps referring to Joshua 10:8, "The Lord hath delivered them into our hands!"​

 

[P.J. Denyer]

....[..] and Theresa May in particular are some kind of cartoon villain.

Does a Scarfe cartoon of Margaret Thatcher count?

 

[angrysoba]

Word on the wireless is that Labour are closing the gap on the Tories. This could mean...

 

[McHrozni]

Word on the wireless is that Labour are closing the gap on the Tories. This could mean...

It's true. It could mean nothing with the election less than three weeks from now.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_United_Kingdom_general_election,_2017

It could also mean Theresa May miscalculated with the snap election to the point of being funny. Polls are a lagging indicator and indicate where the results were a week ago or so, and trends are more important than the current results. I'll keep my fingers crossed but won't hold my breath

McHrozni

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

It's true. It could mean nothing with the election less than three weeks from now.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_United_Kingdom_general_election,_2017

It could also mean Theresa May miscalculated with the snap election to the point of being funny. Polls are a lagging indicator and indicate where the results were a week ago or so, and trends are more important than the current results. I'll keep my fingers crossed but won't hold my breath

McHrozni

If Scotland is anything to go by then a lot of Labour voters will toy with voting for someone else then switch back to Labour when it comes time to actually put their mark on the ballot. At least for an election or two.

One thing in their favour in England and Wales is a lack of a viable alternative. I mean seriously is anyone going to vote for Farron?

 

[McHrozni]

If Scotland is anything to go by then a lot of Labour voters will toy with voting for someone else then switch back to Labour when it comes time to actually put their mark on the ballot. At least for an election or two.

One thing in their favour in England and Wales is a lack of a viable alternative. I mean seriously is anyone going to vote for Farron?

The upside is that this will reduce the Tory majority. Negative impact is that Corbyn will remain party head for the foreseeable future.

McHrozni