Another unarmed black man shot

[marplots]

I have watched the Video and all I will say is if the man had done what he was told by the police he would be here today. I am sick of all this crap when some one is shot and killed and you find out that they ignored what the police were telling them. So I say if you ignore what the police tell you then be prepared to accept the consequences.

From the article:
Her police training taught her that "if a suspect reaches their hands inside of a car, don't let them pull them out," she testified.
"We're not trained to see what comes out of a car," Shelby said. "We're trained to stop a threat, and by all indications, he was a threat."
At that point, Shelby fired her weapon and Turnbough fired his Taser, she testified.

If only pit bulls could access this rationale, we wouldn't have to euthanize so many of them post-bite.

 

[Wolrab]

Immediate and unthinkingly bowing to authority doesn't really seem like the American way to me.

It is definitely better to die than temporarily following police instructions. He showed them.

 

[marplots]

It is definitely better to die than temporarily following police instructions. He showed them.

There's still hope. Not for the murder charge, but for the wrongful death lawsuit.

 

[Fast Eddie B]

From the article:
Her police training taught her that "if a suspect reaches their hands inside of a car, don't let them pull them out," she testified.

I find that believable.

I recall it as, "If you wait to see the gun, you'll also get to see what comes out of it!"

We went through numerous scenarios to emphasize that, given human reaction time, waiting a millisecond too long to react could have fatal consequences.

As an aside, I had a friend on the force convicted and who did time when he thought a subject was reaching under the seat for a gun and shot and killed the subject. So these things can go either way, it appears.

 

[3point14]

It is definitely better to die than temporarily following police instructions. He showed them.

Clearly not.

Clearly the American way is unthinking and immediate response to authority or risk getting shot and killed.

As I say, it doesn't really seem it fits with the rest of the US culture, but it's clearly the paradigm.

 

[Craig4]

From the article:
Her police training taught her that "if a suspect reaches their hands inside of a car, don't let them pull them out," she testified.
"We're not trained to see what comes out of a car," Shelby said. "We're trained to stop a threat, and by all indications, he was a threat."At that point, Shelby fired her weapon and Turnbough fired his Taser, she testified.

If only pit bulls could access this rationale, we wouldn't have to euthanize so many of them post-bite.

This is the real problem. Years ago we went from "Use of Force Continuum" to "Stop the Threat". Stop the Threat is a much more aggressive use of force posture. To add to it, it is often taught by private contractor trainers with Special Operations Forces backgrounds, unsuited to law enforcement.

Having said that, if you take PCP and wake up the next morning, be surprised.

 

[ponderingturtle]

I have watched the Video and all I will say is if the man had done what he was told by the police he would be here today. I am sick of all this crap when some one is shot and killed and you find out that they ignored what the police were telling them. So I say if you ignore what the police tell you then be prepared to accept the consequences.

Yep not knowing english or being deaf is worthy of death sentence in the USA.

That is why they shouldn't have bothered arresting any of the Malheur people, they refused legal orders from law enforcement that merits a death sentence with no jury or any of that BS.

 

[ponderingturtle]

Immediate and unthinkingly bowing to authority doesn't really seem like the American way to me.

But expecting it from blacks is about the most american thing there is. You can't let them get all uppity.

 

[William Parcher]

This thread had many members arguing back and forth about car window closed vs window open. We debated screenshots from helicopter video as well. It seems that from the trial commentary and outcome that the window was open. The verdict probably would have been different if his window was closed.

 

[Craig4]

I think the officer responded how she was trained. The use if force model she was trained with is the problem. US law enforcement needs to go back to the Use of Force Continuum and get away from Stop the Threat.

 

[Fast Eddie B]

I think the officer responded how she was trained. The use if force model she was trained with is the problem. US law enforcement needs to go back to the Use of Force Continuum and get away from Stop the Threat.

For those who might not be familiar:

But we were trained to recognize it can go from Level 1 to Level 5 in an instant, bypassing everything in between.

If a non-compliant subject reaches into a vehicle against officer's orders, he - or she - can produce a firearm and fire before an officer can react. That's just a fact. Of course, officers can reduce the threat by staying at a distance and behind cover. That's often where some of the fault lies - officers rushing in like a moth to a flame, leaving themselves more vulnerable than they need to be and leaving themselves with fewer good options short of deadly force.

 

[crescent]

We went through numerous scenarios to emphasize that, given human reaction time, waiting a millisecond too long to react could have fatal consequences.

This seems relevant to your comment:

Video shows split-second reaction as deputy shoots armed man in Littleton

The Douglas County sheriff’s office released footage from Proux’s body camera, saying it was a prime example of how a routine stop can turn dangerous in an instant and that the footage illustrates the quick decisions law enforcement personnel often are forced to make.

The video:

 

[crescent]

This is the real problem. Years ago we went from "Use of Force Continuum" to "Stop the Threat". Stop the Threat is a much more aggressive use of force posture. To add to it, it is often taught by private contractor trainers with Special Operations Forces backgrounds, unsuited to law enforcement.

Having said that, if you take PCP and wake up the next morning, be surprised.

This thread had many members arguing back and forth about car window closed vs window open. We debated screenshots from helicopter video as well. It seems that from the trial commentary and outcome that the window was open. The verdict probably would have been different if his window was closed.

I feel it is important to point out that he did actually have PCP in his system. I remember there being questions of that at the time, because the officer was trained to recognize the way people act while under the influence of this or that drug. Her conclusion, in this case, was correct:

Autopsy: Terence Crutcher had PCP in system when he was shot by Tulsa police

 

[applecorped]

This seems relevant to your comment:

Video shows split-second reaction as deputy shoots armed man in Littleton



The video:

The cop should have tried reasoning with the individual .......in between shots

 

[332nd]

Yep not knowing english or being deaf is worthy of death sentence in the USA.

Or being mentally impared, autistic, etc...

 

[marplots]

But we were trained to recognize it can go from Level 1 to Level 5 in an instant, bypassing everything in between.

And can it go from Level 5 back down to Level 1 in the next instant?

 

[quadraginta]

I think the officer responded how she was trained. The use if force model she was trained with is the problem. US law enforcement needs to go back to the Use of Force Continuum and get away from Stop the Threat.

This used to be called "Shoot First And Ask Questions Later,"

It's nice to see they have a prettier name for it now.

No other changes, though.

 

[Fast Eddie B]

And can it go from Level 5 back down to Level 1 in the next instant?

Pretty much.

I had one encounter where a citizen had a gun in his hand and was walking towards me. I had cover behind the police car door, and think I actually started to pull the trigger. Then the man shrugged and put down the gun and that de-escalated the appropriate force back to about a "2"*.

It's hard to express how quickly things can change.

*Once in the car, the only charge we could come up with was "manual possession of a firearm by an intoxicated person". And for that, he almost got shot.

 

[marplots]

Pretty much.

I had one encounter where a citizen had a gun in his hand and was walking towards me. I had cover behind the police car door, and think I actually started to pull the trigger. Then the man shrugged and put down the gun and that de-escalated the appropriate force back to about a "2"*.

It's hard to express how quickly things can change.

*Once in the car, the only charge we could come up with was "manual possession of a firearm by an intoxicated person". And for that, he almost got shot.

That's a very fine line to have to walk. I think all of us would like to broaden it and I'm not convinced training alone will suffice. Common sense tells me there's an "experience" component in the mix - how often has an officer faced a similar situation (knowing that "similar" here is ambiguous).

It would be interesting to find out if there's a correlation between police involved shootings and time on the job.

In any case, we all have the same goal here - make these interactions safer for both officers and citizens.

 

[Craig4]

For those who might not be familiar:

[qimg]http://truthaboutguns-zippykid.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/Screen-Shot-2016-03-27-at-8.46.01-AM.png[/qimg]

But we were trained to recognize it can go from Level 1 to Level 5 in an instant, bypassing everything in between.

If a non-compliant subject reaches into a vehicle against officer's orders, he - or she - can produce a firearm and fire before an officer can react. That's just a fact. Of course, officers can reduce the threat by staying at a distance and behind cover. That's often where some of the fault lies - officers rushing in like a moth to a flame, leaving themselves more vulnerable than they need to be and leaving themselves with fewer good options short of deadly force.

Thanks. If the officers were concerned about PCP, why were they so close? When the hand went into the vehicle why didn't they retreat to cover to the back of the vehicle and draw down?