• Security incident: ISF was recently accessed by intruders. Please change your password, and change it anywhere else you used it. Read more

Cont: Proof of Immortality, V for Very long discussion

Status
Not open for further replies.
I don't believe it does.

You said that the self doesn't necessarily depend on a physical body. On what does it depend? How does that make it any more likely for your self to have been created than in any materialistic universe?
LL,
- I don't see how you're involving your current existence in the logic. If everything is physical, the likelihood of you existing no more than once throughout infinity is virtually 1.00. But, the likelihood of you existing right now is virtually zero.
-
 
- But E is the current existence of my physical brain, and P(E|H) is the Bayesian likelihood of the current existence of my physical brain -- and, that is what I'm claiming to be virtually zero.
And that claim is wrong, for the reasons that have been explained to you ad nauseum.
 
LL,
- I don't see how you're involving your current existence in the logic. If everything is physical, the likelihood of you existing no more than once throughout infinity is virtually 1.00. But, the likelihood of you existing right now is virtually zero.
-

Why?
 
- But E is the current existence of my physical brain, and P(E|H) is the Bayesian likelihood of the current existence of my physical brain -- and, that is what I'm claiming to be virtually zero.

But you just said the current existence of your physical brain is a given.
 
- But E is the current existence of my physical brain, and P(E|H) is the Bayesian likelihood of the current existence of my physical brain -- and, that is what I'm claiming to be virtually zero.

1. You just said that the existence of your brain is a given.
2. Even if the likelihood of your brain is virtually zero in H, is is also virtually zero in your not H because your brain is still a part of your self even if you have an additional item (soul). But because it DOES exist, you must account for it, therefore it is impossible for your scenario to be more likely than H.
 
Why do you think there is an infinite pool of selves?
Argumemnon,
- Keep in mind that I think there is an infinite pool of potential selves -- and also, that there is no limited pool of potential selves. If there is no limited pool of potential selves, each self is brand new -- and, there is no limit on brand new. They come out of nowhere...
 
Argumemnon,
- Keep in mind that I think there is an infinite pool of potential selves -- and also, that there is no limited pool of potential selves. If there is no limited pool of potential selves, each self is brand new -- and, there is no limit on brand new. They come out of nowhere...

But not in H, because in H the self is not a separate entity, it is an emergent property of a functioning brain.
 
Argumemnon,
- Keep in mind that I think there is an infinite pool of potential selves -- and also, that there is no limited pool of potential selves. If there is no limited pool of potential selves, each self is brand new -- and, there is no limit on brand new. They come out of nowhere...

:pixie1



Oh, sorry, you said 'selves'.
 
Argumemnon,
- Keep in mind that I think there is an infinite pool of potential selves -- and also, that there is no limited pool of potential selves. If there is no limited pool of potential selves, each self is brand new -- and, there is no limit on brand new. They come out of nowhere...

Argumemnon asked why you think that.
 
Keep in mind that I think there is an infinite pool of potential selves...

And he's asking you why you think that. Merely restating that you do doesn't answer his question. You're being asked for evidence, not a rote repetition of your claim. It's not enough just to speculate that there are such things. If you want others to accept it, you have to prove it with evidence.

Keep in mind that the only reason you're promoting this issue is so that you can use it to refute H. But of course there's no such concept in H, so your reckoning of P(E|H) is entirely wrong. You don't get to use concepts that aren't part of H to do what you're doing.

They come out of nowhere...

Then they don't exist in any way whose "potential number" matters.
 
- But E is the current existence of my physical brain, and P(E|H) is the Bayesian likelihood of the current existence of my physical brain -- and, that is what I'm claiming to be virtually zero.

No, you're still wallowing in the basics of the formulation.

E is the observation that you exist and have a sense of self. H is what tries to explain E. H requires only a physical brain in that explanation. You're trying to find P(E|H), the probability that H is the true explanation for E. P(E|H) is not "the Bayesian likelihood of the existence of my physical brain."
 
Thanks for the lesson, Jay. It has me thinking about a structured problem-solving method that included educated guesses my old company used for product development (OT here).

Examples of proper use of the kind of reasoning Jabba proposes to use are most certainly not off-topic. And I use statistical inference all the time in my own job.

Now, what are the chances Jabba will a) read your post and if he does, b) learn from it? ;)

This isn't the first time I've taken pains to try to teach Jabba and it won't be the first (or last) time that he's ignored it completely. I predict he'll do the same this time -- just carry on as if nothing happened.

He's done the same to all the experts he's consulted, even the ones he chose himself. Here he's trying to play the notion that the only people who object to his method are the people in this forum, whom he can safely ignore since they're "just" skeptics. Remember that his overall strategy seems to be to prove that skeptics are entrenched troglodytes, unable and unwilling to expand their minds. But he fails to realize he's wandering into a field he admits he doesn't understand -- and fails to remember that experts outside this forum have told him his approach is wrong. Much of Jabba's argument here and in the Shroud thread revolved around asserting that the alleged stubbornness and dishonesty of his critics were what kept him from proving his point, not his own shortcomings.

Narrowly-tailored requests for production are part of the fringe playbook. "Find, in an arbitrarily limited field of sources, an authoritative statement that directly and concisely says exactly what you mean in so many words." I'm sure if I scoured the library I might find such a statement, and I'm sure Jabba would rather have me do that than write posts here. But the fact that underconstrained models do not produce useful inference is a conclusion one draws from long and careful study of degrees of freedom, and from practical experience. It's the sort of thing that's a product of expertise and what separates expertise from mere Google-fu. The sort of statement, "You can't guess at both the priors and the likelihoods" is generally made only when someone wrongly tries to do it. It's the application of expertise to a specific problem. Textbooks aren't filled with lists of "You can't do that" statements. Knowing that you can't do something is what comes from having read and comprehended the whole book.

So while some people will read and understand my post, Jabba will most likely just pretend it never happened. It's a reminder to him that he's trying to do stuff he clearly doesn't know how to do, and a reminder that he can't write off his critics as ideologically compromised pundits. So if pressed, I predict he'll just say he has to take some time to study it (and we'll never hear any more about it). Or he'll find some trivial reason to not have to address it, such as that it doesn't fit his narrowly-minted criteria or that I'm "unfriendly" or some other such nonsense.

But he'll be back.
 
Jabba said:
- But E is the current existence of my physical brain, and P(E|H) is the Bayesian likelihood of the current existence of my physical brain -- and, that is what I'm claiming to be virtually zero.

But you just said the current existence of your physical brain is a given.


He wants it to be a given under his preferred hypothesis, but its likelihood to be virtually zero under "OOFLam".
 
But you just said the current existence of your physical brain is a given.
- But, the Bayesian likelihood provides the probability of an actual, particular event occurring under a particular hypothesis. The issue in Bayes is whether or not H is true -- it is not, whether or not E is true. Bayes accepts that an event has occurred -- what it provides is how well that event supports, reconciles with, a particular hypothesis.
 
- But, the Bayesian likelihood provides the probability of an actual, particular event occurring under a particular hypothesis. The issue in Bayes is whether or not H is true -- it is not, whether or not E is true. Bayes accepts that an event has occurred -- what it provides is how well that event supports, reconciles with, a particular hypothesis.

Is the current existence of your physical brain a given or not?
 
Argumemnon,
- Keep in mind that I think there is an infinite pool of potential selves -- and also, that there is no limited pool of potential selves. If there is no limited pool of potential selves, each self is brand new -- and, there is no limit on brand new. They come out of nowhere...
He didn't asked you to repeat what you think, he asked you why you think it.

Jabba, do you believe there are infinite limitless pools of things, processes, properties, etc. other than selves?
 
- But, the Bayesian likelihood provides the probability of an actual, particular event occurring under a particular hypothesis.

No, it provides a ratio of likelihood that an event will occur under one hypothesis versus another hypothesis. In this case, a physical brain is a given in both H and ~H. H requires only a physical brain, whereas ~H requires that same physical brain plus "something more." You insist -- without evidence -- that the likelihood ratio in this case favors ~H when, in fact, it cannot.

As I said, you're still wallowing in the very basics of proper formulation. This isn't a matter of you being a master at Bayesian inference. You admitted you didn't understand it. This isn't a matter of Bayesian statistics being some magical, obscure branch of study that none of your critics knows about. This is a very simple and straightforward case of you not having the faintest clue what you're doing.

Don't pretend your critics cannot confidently see just how very and obviously wrong your argument is.

Bayes accepts that an event has occurred...

But your formulation is wrong in that it changes what the event E is from H to ~H. You incorporate elements of the hypothesis into the observation.
 
Why didn't you take this opportunity to answer my question?

Why do you think there is an infinite pool of potential selves?
- I think I forgot...
- I do think that there are (in a sense) potential selves -- so if there is no limited pool of potential selves, there must be (in a sense) an unlimited pool of potential selves.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

ISF - Join now!

Every member here is approved by hand. No bots, no spam, just people who care about evidence and honest debate.

Membership is free!

Create your free account

Back
Top Bottom