Cont: Proof of Immortality, V for Very long discussion

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My self is more likely to exist now if not all things are physical. If not all things are physical, my self may not depend upon my specific brain.

But it may depend on specific non-physical things whose probabilities can only hurt you, not help you.

Under H the self is a property of the brain, but it is also not a static thing that can be reckoned so clumsily as you have. It is a property, and the manifestation of that property is a process. The self is a process that operates in a functioning brain.
 
It is exactly analogous to your claim.



Under H, C is conditioned solely upon the existence of a body.

Under your hypothesis, C is conditioned not only upon the existence of a body, but also upon other events. It cannot possibly be more probable than C conditioned merely upon one of the factors in your model.



That is your claim, but it is not supported by your formulation.

Your current existence under H requires only the body. Your current existence under your hypothesis requires a body, a soul, and the connection to be made between them. These additional events can occur, at most, with probability 1. At most they can only equal the probability of H. They cannot exceed it, and in practical terms they must be less.
- B is a "given" part of the conditional. We don't need to worry about its probability.
 
jond,
- My self is more likely to exist now if not all things are physical. If not all things are physical, my self may not depend upon my specific brain.

But you agreed that the soul requires a brain, back when you were filling out Agatha's chart. Further we absolutely know that the self can be changed by changing the brain, chemically or by physical damage. Which means you cannot escape having the brain be part of your equation. Thus the problem remains, under H, all you have to account for is the likelihood of your brain. Under your scenario, you have to account for the likelihood of your brain x the likelihood of your soul x the likelihood of them combining. It is impossible for that to be more likely than H.
 
Is "Jabba" now defined as just your "self"? Your body is completely irrelevant?

As jond astutely notes, we can affect the sense of self by physically affecting the brain. Therefore the brain cannot be eliminated from any formulation that also includes the soul. Brain and soul must be independent events under ~H.
 
jond,
- My self is more likely to exist now if not all things are physical. If not all things are physical, my self may not depend upon my specific brain.

You defined E as your current existence. Even if your self does not depend on your brain, your current existence is your self paired with a specific brain.
 
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jond,
- My self is more likely to exist now if not all things are physical. If not all things are physical, my self may not depend upon my specific brain.
You've repeatedly agreed that your self is an emergent property.

1. Why do you think it's an emergent property if you also think it's not dependent on the existence of a functioning brain?

2. What do you think it's an emergent property of, if not your brain?
 
Argumemnon,
- It's just that to me, a "pool" of potential selves implies a limited pool -- so in that sense, I'm claiming that there is no pool. An unlimited pool is something entirely different.

You just said "unlimited pool", so you're contradicting your first sentence with your last.

Perhaps if you stopped playing with words and dancing around rather than engage us in actual discussion we'd be getting somewhere, no?
 
jond,
- My self is more likely to exist now if not all things are physical.

Yes, you've told us before, and you were wrong every time you said it so far, because there IS NO POOL of selves, finite or infinite. For all you know, there could be more than one identical selves right now because of some freak odds.
 
- B is a "given" part of the conditional. We don't need to worry about its probability.

In the formulation

P(c|a,b)>P(c|a)​

you most certainly do. Go refresh your knowledge of how to compute joint probability.
Jay,
- Nah. I think you're wrong. In our formula, a and b are both accepted as true... This is a hypothetical, and "for the moment" we're not worried about their probability. You, or someone else, needs to show me where I'm wrong.
 
Yes, you've told us before, and you were wrong every time you said it so far, because there IS NO POOL of selves, finite or infinite. For all you know, there could be more than one identical selves right now because of some freak odds.
Argumemnon,
- If there were two of me right now, I'd be looking out two sets of eyes.
 
Jay,
- Nah. I think you're wrong. In our formula, a and b are both accepted as true... This is a hypothetical, and "for the moment" we're not worried about their probability. You, or someone else, needs to show me where I'm wrong.

It's not just for rivers anymore!
 
You just said "unlimited pool", so you're contradicting your first sentence with your last.

Perhaps if you stopped playing with words and dancing around rather than engage us in actual discussion we'd be getting somewhere, no?
- No, I'm not. I'm just saying that "limited pool" is not nearly the same as "unlimited pool,' and that the word "pool" by itself, implies (to me) "limited pool." And, while I think that there is no limited pool of potential selves, I do think there is an unlimited pool of potential selves. I'll cease using the word "pool" by itself.
 
But you agreed that the soul requires a brain, back when you were filling out Agatha's chart. Further we absolutely know that the self can be changed by changing the brain, chemically or by physical damage. Which means you cannot escape having the brain be part of your equation. Thus the problem remains, under H, all you have to account for is the likelihood of your brain. Under your scenario, you have to account for the likelihood of your brain x the likelihood of your soul x the likelihood of them combining. It is impossible for that to be more likely than H.

Jabba, you must've missed this...
 
- No, I'm not. I'm just saying that "limited pool" is not nearly the same as "unlimited pool,' and that the word "pool" by itself, implies (to me) "limited pool."

Yes, they are the same, and no, it doesn't imply it.

Now kindly stop playing with words and address my question: why do you think there's an unlimited pool of selves under H?
 
I'm just saying that "limited pool" is not nearly the same as "unlimited pool,' and that the word "pool" by itself, implies (to me) "limited pool."

You're equivocating on how you use the concept of pools in your argument. But let's set that aside as moot.

And, while I think that there is no limited pool of potential selves, I do think there is an unlimited pool of potential selves.

Under H there is no such thing. H contains no notion of "potential selves." Keep in mind that the only reason you're messing around with this concept is to imply that P(E|H) must be very small. But since the concept you're using to reckon P(E|H) is not part either of E or of H, your argument fails forthwith.

There are no "potential selves" under H such that you can count them as infinite and get your Big Denominator.
 
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Nah. I think you're wrong.

I'm not. You may have forgotten all those statisticians you consulted who told you you were wrong, but your critics haven't.

In our formula, a and b are both accepted as true.

No, you're conflating two different concepts which you've muddled by what you admit was uncertain notation. We're not using Bayes' theorem in our illustration. This is just pure joint probability. What you're trying to write as P(c|a,b) is more properly written in my illustration as P(c) = P(a,b).

In the materialist hypothesis, P(c) = P(a). In your hypothesis, P(c) = P(a,b). P(a,b) can never exceed P(a). You argue it does.

But since you mentioned it, in the Bayesian formulation one computes the likelihood ratio P(E|H)/P(E|~H) based on assuming the conditions have been satisfied. But as you were told many times, you can't guess at both the priors and the likelihood ratio. You have no actual numbers for any of it. If your priors are known data, then you can informally specify the likelihood ratio. But if your priors are just subjective guesses, then you must actually compute the likelihood ratio -- that is, you must have an objectively correct computation for P(E|H) and P(E|~H) which you don't have. If your P(E|~H) is really then to be written as P(E|a,b), where a and b are independent events that occur in ~H, then there is no way to get around having to compute P(a) and P(b).

This is a hypothetical...

Not in the illustration jond and I have been trying to get you to look at. We're using this formulation to try to get you to see how conditional probability works at a basic level. You're still stuck in Bayes, which we already know you don't understand.

You, or someone else, needs to show me where I'm wrong.

Where you changed horses and went from the illustration jond and I presented to Bayes, which is irrelevant for the moment.
 
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Argumemnon,
- If there were two of me right now, I'd be looking out two sets of eyes.
What's the difference between there being two of you and you having a twin?

Sent from my SM-N910P using Tapatalk
 
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