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JFK Conspiracy Theories IV: The One With The Whales

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Appealing to your own authority, I see.

I mean that you haven't established that the bullet passed close enough to the liver at a high enough speed to cause serious liver damage; you've simply speculated on the basis of negligible expertise.

Dave

Comparing to the diagrams of Connally's wounds, which shows an exit even farther below the nipple than I previously thought, and most of the diagrams I've seen of how the human organs are situated, I'm pretty sure that the bullet had a close encounter with the liver.

But I am still not confident that everybody's liver is situated exactly like that, not can I know for sure that the temporary cavity wouldn't have gotten much smaller by the time the bullet got near it. Maybe one day somebody could use modern technology to enhance Connally's x-rays. So no, I'm not appealing to my own authority.

While you're here, can you tell me your thoughts on where the small head wound was located, how big the autopsy doctors made the skull cavity to remove the brain, and the open-cranium photographs?
 
Hank, most of your questions are kakadokie based on the faulty premise that the forensic evidence, like the limousine, can be trusted. Yes, we all know how "logical" the SBT is because only one whole bullet was found. Meanwhile, I was questioning one of the only pieces of evidence we know is kosher- Connally's surviving person.

And your gobbledygook responses on the issues with the skull cavity are crapola that doesn't make a lick of sense.
 
Hank, most of your questions are kakadokie based on the faulty premise that the forensic evidence, like the limousine, can be trusted.

How is the evidence faulty?

You lack the technical skill to evaluate any of the medical information, and I will remind you for the fourth time that there is not enough photographic information available for anybody to make an informed assessment of any bankable value.

You can't figure out how bullets work, and they are much simpler than a biological organism. So how can you question evidence that you clearly don't understand? What's more, you have no credible basis to assert the evidence was tampered with or has been misevaluated. The basis for the entire JFK CT was wrong from the beginning. People couldn't deal with Vietnam, and they embraced a fantasy version of JFK who was going to get us out, and "they" killed him for it. All of the JKF CT lore is a lie built upon a mountain of lies.
 
You know a Conspiracy Theory is on shaky ground as soon as somebody tells you that objective evidence that can be tested, can not be trusted, but has been happy to rely on old memories or claims of various witnesses.


Why do people never understand that witnesses, who can be honest, but still wrong, because of the very nature of our memory, are validated by objective evidence, not the other way around.

If the objective evidence can't be trusted, how can one prove, or even claim the grounds to suspect an alternative narrative?
 
Hank, most of your questions are kakadokie based on the faulty premise that the forensic evidence, like the limousine, can be trusted.

Not sure what "kakadokie" is. But I know the logical fallacy of Begging the Question when I see it. You are simply asserting the forensic evidence is faulty. But if you don't trust the forensic evidence, then you need to build a case for why we should not trust it either. Show the premise is faulty, don't just assert it. Your assertions about what is trustworthy do not have to be automatically accepted by us as true. Not sure the limousine has ever said anything untrustworthy, either.

Your earlier attempt to question the evidence garnered from the limousine (the two large fragments that establish that a high-powered bullet from Oswald's weapon was the one that struck JFK in the head, for instance) fell flat. All you showed was the FBI left behind some blood, hair, and minute pieces of skull, the origin of which is not in doubt, and which were deemed to have no evidentiary value at the time.

Besides, even if they missed a minute bullet fragment (which you have not shown or argued for), how does that call into question the large fragments that were found?



Yes, we all know how "logical" the SBT is because only one whole bullet was found.

I asked about the single bullet theory not at all. Why are you so intent on answering questions I did not raise, and avoiding answering questions I did raise? Isn't this just another attempt by you to deflect the conversation from the questions you cannot answer about your theory?



Meanwhile, I was questioning one of the only pieces of evidence we know is kosher- Connally's surviving person.

Since some question whether JFK's body was altered, why do you think Connally's body is sacrosanct?

And while you argue Connally's body is 'kosher', you cannot answer any questions about what happened to the bullet(s) that struck Connally, nor the shooter that shot Connally. Your theory is incomplete. You need to learn more about Connally's injuries and fill in the gaps in your theory.

Wouldn't "body alteration" neatly explain why no low-velocity bullets were found in Connally after the assassination? Why are you presuming his body was not tampered with?



And your gobbledygook responses on the issues with the skull cavity are crapola that doesn't make a lick of sense.

Others here have attested to understanding my responses. You might be a bit biased in your assessment, don't you think?

Hank
 
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Questions for MicahJava concerning his latest theorizing about a low-velocity bullet:

Where's the low-velocity bullet that you *conjecture*?

Why wasn't this bullet found in Connally's body?

Or on Connally's stretcher?

Would this low-velocity bullet emerge undamaged from Connally, and fall out of his wound onto his stretcher?

Doesn't this testimony [Larry Sturdivan's, as quoted by you] mean that at least two bullets would have to have hit Connally, both of which vanished into thin air and were never recovered, along with the gunman firing these bullets likewise vanishing?

Would a low-velocity bullet penetrate Connally's back, his wrist, and end up wounding his thigh?

If your answer to the above is no, where's the other bullet(s) that would have caused the other wound(s) this low velocity bullet didn't cause?

And by tracing back Connally's wounds, where do you think this supposed second shooter was located?

Where's the evidence for either the shooter or the bullets?

Doesn't your argument mean 90% of the witnesses are wrong, as that's about how many heard three shots?

Doesn't this call into question witnesses like John Connally, who heard only two shots and felt a third (between the two he heard)?

Does your argument about Connally's injuries call into question the viability of using eyewitness testimony (and recollections from decades later) as the centerpiece of earlier your arguments, as it points to eyewitnesses being wrong?

How come no witness out of the 500 or so in Dealey Plaza at the time of the assassination came forward to say this saw this second shooter?
 
Snipped...

So John Connally was hit in his back to the right of the shoulder, had his fifth rib shattered, and had the missile exit below his right nipple, right? Considering the temporary cavitation of a low-velocity tumbling bullet, how did that not cause serious damage to his liver, which would have been within an inch or so near the fifth rib/exit point? There was never mention of serious damage to Connally's liver.

Snipped...

A high-velocity bullet just going near your liver can cause serious damage to it. And all of these articles and books say that a tumbling high-velocity bullet can make an even bigger temporary cavity. Meanwhile, a low-velocity (subsonic) bullet may give a better explanation for why Connally wasn't killed.

Still no answer for why your pin-the-headwound on the drawing riff has any actual significance in the context of the known evidence?

Your latest flight of fantasy has a couple of serious flaws.

1. Low velocity projectiles of any diameter rarely "tumble" inside a soft target - they may "yaw" in soft tissue - but other than changing direction after impacting the skeletal structure they do not tumble.

About the terms of art you're using.

As defined by the U.S. military, to be considered as a "High-Velocity" small arms projectile, the muzzle velocity needs to be at or above 3,500 feet per second.

The Carcano 6.5 x 52R starts out at approximately 2,000 FPS out of the Carcano barrel, m/l 2,200 FPS out of the longer standard issue rifle barrel.

The Carcano round doesn't make the cut as a HV round.

To the question of the projectile "tumbling."

One of the earliest myths concerning the lethality of the original M193 5.56 mm round and the M16 was that the bullet "tumbled" before impact.

It was an explanation that untrained individuals bought into at face value.

The fact was/is that the very earliest examples of the AR-15 as adopted was that the rifling twist was 1 turn in 14 inches in a 20 inch barrel. That was just enough to stabilize the 55 grain issue round, but once the projectile hit anything but air the bullet would destabilize. The theory being that the destabilized projectile would cause greater injury to a soft target. The reality was that the round fired from a 1/14 barrel wasn't accurate enough to be useful and because the projectile destabilized so easily, a soft target behind almost any type of cover was relatively safe. The problem was corrected by increasing the rate of twist to 1/12, but the myth lingered on amongst people who didn't know any better. A projectile "tumbling" as a part of the exterior ballistics of the projectile is a classified as a deficiency if it's the result of the weapons' design.

Projectiles that "tumble" after penetration (the correct term is "yaw.") don't behave in the manner that layman believe. As the projectile destabilizes, it begins to rotate along it's axis and some types of projectiles (steel core 7.62 x 39 combloc comes to mind) will swap ends as it travels through a soft target and will also lose velocity. Such a projectile doesn't act like a circular saw inside a soft target.

2. The projectile that wounded Connally was barely supersonic at impact. Your speculation of cavitation isn't based on the facts.
 
Hilarious. Okay, it's clear you know little to nothing about the circumstances of Oswald's life. Oswald didn't own the house, Michael & Ruth Paine did. It was the Paine's garage, as well. Oswald imposed on them by having some of his stuff left there when Ruth transported Marina from New Orleans to Dallas in September of 1963.




Yeah, as a Quaker, I doubt Michael Paine was built that way, so he would avoid doing so if possible. But regardless, Oswald was imposing on the Paines by leaving his possessions in the Paine garage, and Michael did move Oswald's rifle as he saw fit to get it out of his way and finally under a bandsaw when it became an inconvenience for him to move around his own garage with that rifle in the way. Ruth Paine also said if she had known there was a weapon stored in her home, she would have asked Oswald to remove it.
Michael Paine was NOT a Quaker... Ruth was the only Quaker in that relationship.
 
Still no answer for why your pin-the-headwound on the drawing riff has any actual significance in the context of the known evidence?

Your latest flight of fantasy has a couple of serious flaws.

1. Low velocity projectiles of any diameter rarely "tumble" inside a soft target - they may "yaw" in soft tissue - but other than changing direction after impacting the skeletal structure they do not tumble.

About the terms of art you're using.

As defined by the U.S. military, to be considered as a "High-Velocity" small arms projectile, the muzzle velocity needs to be at or above 3,500 feet per second.

The Carcano 6.5 x 52R starts out at approximately 2,000 FPS out of the Carcano barrel, m/l 2,200 FPS out of the longer standard issue rifle barrel.

The Carcano round doesn't make the cut as a HV round.

To the question of the projectile "tumbling."

One of the earliest myths concerning the lethality of the original M193 5.56 mm round and the M16 was that the bullet "tumbled" before impact.

It was an explanation that untrained individuals bought into at face value.

The fact was/is that the very earliest examples of the AR-15 as adopted was that the rifling twist was 1 turn in 14 inches in a 20 inch barrel. That was just enough to stabilize the 55 grain issue round, but once the projectile hit anything but air the bullet would destabilize. The theory being that the destabilized projectile would cause greater injury to a soft target. The reality was that the round fired from a 1/14 barrel wasn't accurate enough to be useful and because the projectile destabilized so easily, a soft target behind almost any type of cover was relatively safe. The problem was corrected by increasing the rate of twist to 1/12, but the myth lingered on amongst people who didn't know any better. A projectile "tumbling" as a part of the exterior ballistics of the projectile is a classified as a deficiency if it's the result of the weapons' design.

Projectiles that "tumble" after penetration (the correct term is "yaw.") don't behave in the manner that layman believe. As the projectile destabilizes, it begins to rotate along it's axis and some types of projectiles (steel core 7.62 x 39 combloc comes to mind) will swap ends as it travels through a soft target and will also lose velocity. Such a projectile doesn't act like a circular saw inside a soft target.

2. The projectile that wounded Connally was barely supersonic at impact. Your speculation of cavitation isn't based on the facts.

Did I say that I thought a subsonic bullet was tumbling or unstable when it hit Connally? No. That's the official version, but with a high-velocity tumbling bullet.

Connally's back wound was no more oval than Kennedy's small head wound.

I've already explained the implications of the "pin-the-entry-on-the-head game". At the very least, it shows how something that may very well be a hoax has become a major gatekeeper of the historical, legal JFK forensic evidence.
 
If I did, you'd just post an animated GIF of some random animal in reply. So I'll pass, thanks.

Dave

It's only an essential foundation of the fabric of history, not important at all to talk about what the skull photographs show, how large the skull cavity could and not not have been, etc.
 
Michael Paine was NOT a Quaker... Ruth was the only Quaker in that relationship.

My apologies... Paine testified to this:

Mr. LIEBELER - We understand that you are a Quaker, Mr. Paine, is that correct?
Mr. PAINE - That is not quite correct.
When I was in Philadelphia, I sang in various churches, and Ruth being a Quaker, started going to Quaker meetings. Had I remained there I would have become a Quaker. Moving to Texas there was a very small Quaker community, and I joined the Unitarian Church after a while.
Mr. LIEBELER - When did you first become interested in the Quaker religion; was it about the time you met your wife or was it before that.
Mr. PAINE - No; I think she was instrumental in bringing me into that circle.


This is a correction to this post:
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11809058&postcount=3133

If that was the only error you found in that lengthy post, I must be doing something right.

Thanks again,

Hank
 
Did I say that I thought a subsonic bullet was tumbling or unstable when it hit Connally? No.

Oh, yes - you absolutely did say that.

Right here: http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11809878&postcount=3137

Quoting your argument:
"So John Connally was hit in his back to the right of the shoulder, had his fifth rib shattered, and had the missile exit below his right nipple, right? Considering the temporary cavitation of a low-velocity tumbling bullet, how did that not cause serious damage to his liver, which would have been within an inch or so near the fifth rib/exit point? There was never mention of serious damage to Connally's liver."

Hank
 
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If I did, you'd just post an animated GIF of some random animal in reply. So I'll pass, thanks.

Dave
It's only an essential foundation of the fabric of history, not important at all to talk about what the skull photographs show, how large the skull cavity could and not not have been, etc.


[qimg]https://68.media.tumblr.com/75afbe5ec5cd8d11179ec61f22d3fb39/tumblr_olax88kkNT1vkzuj9o1_400.gif[/qimg]

Hank
 
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Questions for MicahJava concerning his latest theorizing about a low-velocity bullet:

Where's the low-velocity bullet that you *conjecture*?

Why wasn't this bullet found in Connally's body?

Or on Connally's stretcher?

Would this low-velocity bullet emerge undamaged from Connally, and fall out of his wound onto his stretcher?

Doesn't this testimony [Larry Sturdivan's, as quoted by you] mean that at least two bullets would have to have hit Connally, both of which vanished into thin air and were never recovered, along with the gunman firing these bullets likewise vanishing?

Would a low-velocity bullet penetrate Connally's back, his wrist, and end up wounding his thigh?

If your answer to the above is no, where's the other bullet(s) that would have caused the other wound(s) this low velocity bullet didn't cause?

And by tracing back Connally's wounds, where do you think this supposed second shooter was located?

Where's the evidence for either the shooter or the bullets?

Doesn't your argument mean 90% of the witnesses are wrong, as that's about how many heard three shots?

Doesn't this call into question witnesses like John Connally, who heard only two shots and felt a third (between the two he heard)?

Does your argument about Connally's injuries call into question the viability of using eyewitness testimony (and recollections from decades later) as the centerpiece of earlier your arguments, as it points to eyewitnesses being wrong?

How come no witness out of the 500 or so in Dealey Plaza at the time of the assassination came forward to say this saw this second shooter?


PS: My prediction is you will ignore all the questions.

So far I am right on.

Hank
 
Oh, no. You absolutely did say that.

Right here: http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11809878&postcount=3137

Quoting your argument:
"So John Connally was hit in his back to the right of the shoulder, had his fifth rib shattered, and had the missile exit below his right nipple, right? Considering the temporary cavitation of a low-velocity tumbling bullet, how did that not cause serious damage to his liver, which would have been within an inch or so near the fifth rib/exit point? There was never mention of serious damage to Connally's liver."

Hank

I think I meant to say "high-velocity". A temporary capitation can be stretched specially wide if it's coming from a high-velocity tumbling bullet. If a bullet other than CE399 hit Connally, it didn't have to be tumbling unless you wanted to work the oval back wound into it (which was no more oval than the small head wound of Kennedy).
 
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I think I meant to say "high-velocity".

You could play cornerback in the NFL with that back-pedal.


A temporary capitation can be stretched specially wide if it's coming from a high-velocity tumbling bullet. If a bullet other than CE399 hit Connally, it didn't have to be tumbling unless you wanted to work the oval back wound into it (which was no more oval than the small head wound of Kennedy).

What evidence can you muster for a bullet other than CE399 hitting Connally? Where is this other bullet? What's the evidence it was a low-velocity round? (and all the other questions about your theory you're avoiding).

Hank
 
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