Cont: Proof of Immortality, V for Very long discussion

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- Take a look. Jay Utah has been exceptionally unfriendly to me, and I keep giving him another chance...


Jabba,

I have to disagree with you in the strongest terms. JU has been one of if not the most consistent, on-point, polite and detail-oriented poster in this thread. If you ignored everyone except JU, you'd have a much more thorough understanding of concepts than you do now.


(Due to my strong language, I am required to point out that I am not posting as a mod.)
 
Do You Believe The Soul Is Not Separate From The Body?
.........l..................................................l
........No..............................................Yes
.........l..................................................l
.........l..................Do you have any repeatable, falsifiable evidence?
.........l................................l................................l
.........l...............................No.............................Yes.
.........l................................l ...............................l
Accept the null position that the soul..................Really?
is not separate from the body.............................l.......l
...........^.........................................................No.....Yes
............l...........................................................l.........l
............L---------------------------------------------l........l
................................................................................l
........................................................................Publish it, genius.

ftfy

Seems like you got yourself a problem there.
 
- Take a look. Jay Utah has been exceptionally unfriendly to me, and I keep giving him another chance...

Who gives a crap what Jay Utah says anyway? Look, this isn't hard, I'll try to make it as simple as I can:

Suppose there are only three people which could have come into existence, John, Jules and Jabba (ie you). Suppose it has to be exactly one of those, so either John, Jules or Jabba but not 2 or 3 of them together.

By the what you call scientific hypothesis each of these has a 1/3 chance of coming into existence. Now suppose we have the hypothesis that people are made by God with an immortal soul. Then the chance that God would have made John is 1/3, that he would have made Jules is 1/3 and that he would have made Jabba is 1/3.

Having an immortal soul does not increase the likelihood of you coming into existence over not having one. That is your problem, nothing more and nothing less. Ignore everything else in this sequence of threads, spend your time reading a probability theory textbook instead.
 
Posting a response is not answering points.

But here's one for you: you have no justification for using "infinity" as a denominator in your equation, since you've not established that there are an infinity of "odds" against a particular person existing. In fact, for all you know all things are deterministic, and thus all odds are 1:1. You have utterly failed to address this repeatedly.

Argumemnon,
- I have tried to address this numerous times. For some reason, it doesn't easily communicate.
- Maybe, it's just me -- but maybe, it's like calculus or factor analysis, and does not easily communicate.
- Whatever, I'll try again -- but, it won't be fast.
- Here's my thinking on the matter.
1. There is no pool of potential selves.
2. A certain physical situation brings about a bit of consciousness.
3. Each bit of consciousness "feels" a particular sense of self.
4. Scientifically speaking, this new sense of self is "brand" new -- no one else has ever had this particular sense of self, and no one else ever will.
5. IOW, each new bit of consciousness sprouts a brand new particular sense of self.
6. ISOW, there is no limit on the number of different senses of self.
6. There is no limit on new bits of consciousness.
 
- Here's my thinking on the matter.
1. There is no pool of potential selves.
2. A certain physical situation brings about a bit of consciousness.
3. Each bit of consciousness "feels" a particular sense of self.
4. Scientifically speaking, this new sense of self is "brand" new -- no one else has ever had this particular sense of self, and no one else ever will.
5. IOW, each new bit of consciousness sprouts a brand new particular sense of self.
6. ISOW, there is no limit on the number of different senses of self.
6. There is no limit on new bits of consciousness.
And how are you getting from there to immortality? :confused:
 
- Here's my thinking on the matter.
1. There is no pool of potential selves.
2. A certain physical situation brings about a bit of consciousness.
3. Each bit of consciousness "feels" a particular sense of self.
4. Scientifically speaking, this new sense of self is "brand" new -- no one else has ever had this particular sense of self, and no one else ever will.
.

:dl:
 
18th April 2017

- Trying to re-group and present my premises for your objections:

1. There is such a ‘thing’ (process?) as consciousness.
2. Consciousness naturally brings with it a “self” (or, “sense of self”).
3. “Self” being the experience that reincarnationists believe returns to life.

4. There is such a thing as a potential selves – before we are conceived, we are potential selves.
5. There must be an infinity of potential selves.
.

22nd April 2017

- Here's my thinking on the matter.
1. There is no pool of potential selves.

Did you just change your mind?
 
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- Here's my thinking on the matter.
1. There is no pool of potential selves.
Why did you change your mind on this point? You've been touting the existing of an infinite amount of potential selves for a long time. It's the basis for the infinity in the denominator of your odds - each new self in a body is plucked from this infinite pool of selves according to you and thus your chances of existing in a body are something in infinity (at least as far as I can gather from your posts).

Why the sudden change?
 
- Here's my thinking on the matter.
1. There is no pool of potential selves.
2. A certain physical situation brings about a bit of consciousness.
3. Each bit of consciousness "feels" a particular sense of self.
4. Scientifically speaking, this new sense of self is "brand" new -- no one else has ever had this particular sense of self, and no one else ever will.
5. IOW, each new bit of consciousness sprouts a brand new particular sense of self.
6. ISOW, there is no limit on the number of different senses of self.
6. There is no limit on new bits of consciousness.

2. A working brain generates consciousness. Brain stops functioning, consciousness stops.

3. Until it ceases functioning.

6. The limit is the number of humans able to sexually reproduce at any given time. Your father could not have reproduced with Cleopatra. I cannot reproduce with Kate Bush, despite our being alive at the same time. (Been to the doctor...)
 
1. There is no pool of potential selves.
2. A certain physical situation brings about a bit of consciousness.
3. Each bit of consciousness "feels" a particular sense of self.
4. Scientifically speaking, this new sense of self is "brand" new -- no one else has ever had this particular sense of self, and no one else ever will.
5. IOW, each new bit of consciousness sprouts a brand new particular sense of self.

So far so good. So you're now retracting your earlier claims.

6. ISOW, there is no limit on the number of different senses of self.
6. There is no limit on new bits of consciousness.

You don't know that. You haven't presented any reason why this is true. You have no idea what the number might be. This doesn't answer my question. It just re-states your claim.
 
- Here's my thinking on the matter.
1. There is no pool of potential selves.

Correct.

2. A certain physical situation brings about a bit of consciousness.

More precisely: A functioning brain produces an instance of consciousness.

3. Each bit of consciousness "feels" a particular sense of self.

Each process of consciousness produces a feeling of self.

4. Scientifically speaking, this new sense of self is "brand" new -- no one else has ever had this particular sense of self, and no one else ever will.

Each consciousness is unique. While it might be reproduced, given the right technology, it is extremely unlikely to "naturally" exist twice.

5. IOW, each new bit of consciousness sprouts a brand new particular sense of self.

It does not "sprout" a self. The perception of self is a property of consciousness.

6. ISOW, there is no limit on the number of different senses of self.
6. There is no limit on new bits of consciousness.

Wrong. The number of self-perceiving consciousnesses is limited by (and virtually equal to) the number of functioning physical brains. The number of brains is limited by various physical limits on Earth. Currently, there is about 7 billion of them. The total number that have ever existed is about 108 billion ( source: http://www.prb.org/Publications/Articles/2002/HowManyPeopleHaveEverLivedonEarth.aspx )

Of course, I'm implying human brains, here. Some of the other creatures on Earth arguably also have complex enough brains to perceive some sense of self. And what exists in the rest of the universe is, currently, pure guesswork.

Hans
 
Here's my thinking on the matter.

We know your thinking. You repeat it at least once a day, and have done that and little else for a number of years. Please stop simply repeating what you believe and start addressing the statements by which your critics are demonstrating that your thinking is wrong. That is what separates debate from a lecture.

There is no pool of potential selves.

Under H this is correct, largely because the concept of "potential selves" doesn't exist in H, in pools, sets, abstract entities, or what have you. However, in the past you've used this as a justification for saying the number of "potential selves" must be infinite -- i.e., because it's not limited to a (finite) pool. If this is going to continue to be your argument, state it up front so that all the agreement you're getting on this point doesn't improperly translate to agreement to the inappropriate and incorrect conclusion you have previously drawn on it.

A certain physical situation brings about a bit of consciousness.

Under H this is correct, the physical situation being the formation and maturity of a functioning physical organism complete with nervous system.

Each bit of consciousness "feels" a particular sense of self.

No. Under H the consciousness and the sense of self are synonymous. There is no separation such that you can treat them differently or talk about what generates the other.

Scientifically speaking, this new sense of self is "brand" new -- no one else has ever had this particular sense of self, and no one else ever will.

No. Under scientific materialism this statement is pure gibberish. You're trying to style the sense of self as a separate entity at attach your desired properties to it. It is itself a property of the physical organism.

If, hypothetically, you could manufacture exact copies of the organism, the properties the organism would exhibit would not differ from specimen to specimen.

5. IOW, each new bit of consciousness sprouts a brand new particular sense of self.
6. ISOW, there is no limit on the number of different senses of self.
6. There is no limit on new bits of consciousness.

No. All this misconception arises from you continuing to treat the sense of self as if it were a separate enumerable entity, one example of infinite such allegedly discrete entities. In the materialism it is nothing of the kind, but is instead an ongoing process, the process being a property of the organism. Trying to count it is as stupid as trying to count "going 60 mph." A specimen of proper character will exhibit the expected properties. That is what it means to be a property. Since you're trying to reckon P(E|H), you must use H as it is formulated. Making your own stuff up and attaching it to H is improper in your proposed method.
 
- Could be that "insult" is the wrong word. Could be that a claim shouldn't be considered an insult if it's true. And you guys believe that every thing that Jay says is true.
- So, I'll switch over to "impugn." I claim that Jay is constantly impugning me.
- I also claim that to have effective debate, the opponents should not impugn each other. Obviously, they're going to argue that their opponents are wrong, but the "nastier" they are to each other, the more difficult actually "getting somewhere" will be...
- It seems to me that the world keeps getting more and more dangerous, and that we humans desperately need a way to express our disagreements in a friendly way. That may be impossible -- but, I think that we desperately need to study that possibility...

- So starting with the latest chapter of the "immortality" issue, here are a few of Jay's post that make it hard for me to respond in a friendly way.

Same pointless navel-gazing dump as before. Jabba, you're a mature adult. Start writing like one, not like an angsty teenager.
No, it's solipsism.
No. You have no Big Denominator to make this happen. Further, your new love affair with solipsism undermines the "potential selves" thing you were using for the past three months to try to get you Big Denominator to happen.
And it's garbage, Jabba. It's no better than the same woo-woo garbage you've been slinging for going-on five years now. There's no usable math anywhere in this post, and you've obviously settled into a long-term plan to repeat the same garbage over and over again regardless of what's said to you.
So the question you really need to answer at this point is why a rational person should listen to you?

You were done years ago. But just as you did in the Shroud thread, you kept arguing long after you lost. Effective debate stops after one party loses. It doesn't continue in perpetuity so that the losing party can figure out a way to save face.
You aren't.
Yes, I can be that confident. Certain arguments are just broken at their very core, and yours is one of them. The only reason it has taken so long for you to concede is that you haven't been honest either with yourself or with your critics. You have pursued a failed argument simply because you don't want to admit error. It's nothing more noble than face-saving.
You've had literally dozens of very smart people attempt to correct your errors, and you have behaved incredibly rudely toward them. These are people who volunteered their time and efforts on your behalf, and you won't give the satisfaction of admitting they've been right all along.
Yes, it's been painfully obvious that all you want is approval. You promised us a mathematical proof. But now we're back to where it started and where it should have stayed -- your opinion. As many have told you, believe whatever you want. But don't pretend you can prove your beliefs mathematically unless you know how to deliver the goods.
You don't.
There isn't. Probability just doesn't work that way. This is the third thread (by my count) that you've started trying to apply probability to mystical questions in an effort to prove them. The result in all three has been a clear demonstration that you don't understand probability. Own it, and move on with your life.
No, this is just the same false dilemma every fringe claimant uses. You come up with some particular method and standard by which to dismiss the prevailing view and then hope your unevidenced, unsupported woo claim holds by default.
That's not how proof works, mathematical or otherwise. False dilemmas don't let you do that.

You couldn't present any, so no. Your personal unwillingness to believe doesn't constitute a "real reason to doubt."
Of course it does. And it was presented to you several times. You spent years trying (and failing) to refute it.
"You're too dumb to get it" is a poor argument, Jabba. We don't agree with you because you tried to foist onto the scientific explanation for the sense of self a pile of gratuitous nonsense you made up to try to make it seem more like a soul, and then declared victory because science couldn't explain your made-up nonsense. Nothing more than that. Despite your best efforts, you couldn't make the straw man work, so now you've retreated back into the self-serving argument that you're just so much better than everyone else at "perceiving" things.
"I feel that I'm right" is not an argument. "I perceive things that I declare to be outside science" is not an argument. This is exactly what it means to beg the question. This is very, very far from the mathematical proof you promised.
No, it isn't. You just did the umpteenth fringe reset of the thread and are back peddling the same nonsense you started with.
Go do something else with your life, Jabba. You're really no good at this.
- Some of Jay's post are short, but many are quite long; I have numerous other opponents to try to answer; I can only fly low and slow; Jay keeps impugning me; and, as I keep telling him that I will try to answer his questions and objections if he could reiterate them, one at a time, he just tells me to look them up myself, when other opponents do provide specifics and are less impugning.
- Some more.


You don't say.
You are missing something: a competent understanding of when such a model produces usable results.
No "could be" about it. You've been treated to several in-depth explanations from several different sources -- including myself -- on just how you are misusing this model.
You spent going-on five years ignoring them entirely.
It wasn't a matter of not understanding them. You simply pretended the explanations didn't exist. So put away Befuddled Old Man, because he's never been a credible character. You never sought to understand. You were never motivated to grasp whether your argument has any merit whatsoever. And once again here's Befuddled Old Man trying to disarm criticism; "Gee, guys, I guess I just don't get it. Would you mind running through it all again for my benefit? Maybe this time I'll hit upon the niggling little detail I can debate pointlessly at length for another six months."
That's a euphemistic analysis of what your critics have been telling you all along. You ignore criticism almost entirely and grasp frantically for any semblance of agreement. Your "effective debate" strategy consists of nothing but biding the debate until something comes along that you can snatch up and style as support for your existing beliefs.
Not only are you refusing -- once again -- to conceive that you might possibly be wrong, you're adopting your standard de minimis concession. You still think your argument cannot be as colossally wrong as it is, on as deep a fundamental level as it is. You are still holding out hope that you can just "tweak" the arithmetic and suddenly resolve all the massively wrong-headed thinking your argument entails.
Do not pretend it was anything other than that, and do not pretend that you have now suddenly changed your ways, and do not pretend that this is anything more than your latest attempt at a fringe reset.
If your lament is that you never had time to read all the attempts to instruct and educate you, your penance -- now as it ever was -- is to go back and read them again. There is no legitimate basis for you to insinuate that we're going to need to repeat it all over again for you. Those four-plus years of prior posts haven't gone anywhere. So maybe you can atone for the rudeness with which you've treated your critics over the years by going back and reading what they already wrote and attempt to understand it.
The fact that Bayes' Theorem in no way lets you conjure up fact out of nothing more than numbers you invent. Your problem isn't arithmetical. Your problem is that you fail deeply to understand how to make any sort of statistical model. But that's not even the depth of your problem. Your problem is that you desperately want to pretend there is an objective justification of proof for mysticism, and you project your angst onto your critics upon finding out there isn't any such thing.
 
... And you guys believe that every thing that Jay says is true.
....

You wanted an example of putting words in peoples mouths?
You just did it.

I do NOT agree with EVERYTHING Jay says.

That being said, he makes statements that I often agree with.

Feel free to prove him wrong with logical arguments and facts. It's largely a free board. I've never seen anyone censored because she/he presented a logical argument.
 
And yet in the time you spent putting that whine together, you could have responded to the many posts which addressed your previous post.
 
And lets be clear, you aren't facing a team with a mob mentality who are all buddies against you. If I start a thread and claim some bogus science, my arguments will get torn apart. These aren't my friends who are going to let ******** slide just because 'one of theirs' said it.

Just make logical arguments and back them up with facts. After 5 years, you are still repeating the same assertions without backing them up.

Here, I will ask you politely. Have you any evidence we might consider that there is a sense of self or identity or soul that exists independent of the brain?

Evidence. Facts. Measurable, reproducible evidence.
 
- Could be that "insult" is the wrong word. Could be that a claim shouldn't be considered an insult if it's true. And you guys believe that every thing that Jay says is true.

Or maybe trying to gaslight people into believing you've been treated badly is not going to be a convincing argument here.

So, I'll switch over to "impugn." I claim that Jay is constantly impugning me.

Changing horses. You made a personal accusation that wasn't supported by fact. Rather than apologize for the false accusation, you're now just looking for whatever mud you can sling. Let's hope you realize quickly the folly of what you're doing today.

I also claim that to have effective debate, the opponents should not impugn each other.

Changing words doesn't help you here, Jabba. http://www.dictionary.com/browse/impugn?s=t Please explain why an effective debate should not attempt to challenge your claims as false.

...but the "nastier" they are to each other, the more difficult actually "getting somewhere" will be...

None of the posts you've quoted are nasty. They properly characterize your argument and attempt to hold you accountable for them.

It seems to me that the world keeps getting more and more dangerous, and that we humans desperately need a way to express our disagreements in a friendly way.

Asked and answered. Your definition of "friendly" seems to preclude any disagreement. You voluntarily posted a controversial claim at a skeptics forum knowing full well that it would be vigorously challenged. I assure you no one wants to listen to your complaints about how uncomfortable that makes you feel.

Some of Jay's post are short, but many are quite long...

But you've said they challenge you in a good way, and that you have to go away and think about them.

I have numerous other opponents to try to answer; I can only fly low and slow...

And in the very next sentence the excuse changes to "I don't have time to answer everyone."

Jay keeps impugning me...

And we're on to the third excuse -- I'm supposedly mean and nasty to you, yet somehow none of these posts have been moderated away.

When you finally make up your mind what your excuse is going to be for ignoring me, please let us know.

I keep telling him that I will try to answer his questions and objections if he could reiterate them...

I took the time to write the posts in the first place. What about your various excuses for inattention compels me to repeat myself?

...he just tells me to look them up myself...

And why should that not be your responsibility? If you merely skim the thread, but then want to delve more deeply, why is scrolling back to earlier posts in the debate such an insufferable hardship?
 
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