UK General Election

[MikeG]

Are you arguing that she wants to explicitly put the government's policy on Brexit in the manifesto in order to prevent the Lords from delaying the passage of the Brexit bill?

Yes.

 

[Tolls]

No, this is a mandate, and a clearer one is difficult to realistically imagine:
https://yougov.co.uk/news/2017/03/29/attitudes-brexit-everything-we-know-so-far/

Except, as shown in point 4, the majority of these people seem to be expecting a Brexit which gives them a pony.

 

[3point14]

Except, as shown in point 4, the majority of these people seem to be expecting a Brexit which gives them a pony.

By the gods, that's depressing.



"The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter."
Winston Churchill

 

[Craig B]

He we go, all the proles are too stupid to see 'the truth' and therefore voted for Brexit. That canard got washed up last year.

"Washed up the canard"? Are you trying to add credence to your "stupid" theory?

No, things that are definitely going to happen will happen. That's what definitely means.

What does the expression I used mean? To refresh your memory, it was "some things".

 

[baron]

Except, as shown in point 4, the majority of these people seem to be expecting a Brexit which gives them a pony.

People want the best outcome. There's no surprise there, it's still a mandate and a massive one at that.

"Washed up the canard"? Are you trying to add credence to your "stupid" theory?

No, stupid is better illustrated by people who refuse to accept that they're not going to get what they want and prefer to tear their garments and wail as opposed to accepting our position and working productively for the future.

What does the expression I used mean? To refresh your memory, it was "some things".

Yes, you said, "Some things that are definitely going to happen might not happen", which is obvious nonsense.

 

[Tolls]

People want the best outcome.


No, stupid is better illustrated by people who refuse to accept that they're not going to get what they want and prefer to tear their garments and wail as opposed to accepting our position and working productively for the future.

These two comments are closely related.
The people in the above survey are not going to get their pony...yet they don't seem to want to accept that situation.

In any case, if you think someone is doing something mind-bogglingly dim it might be worth pointing that out.

 

[baron]

These two comments are closely related.
The people in the above survey are not going to get their pony...yet they don't seem to want to accept that situation.

How do you know what they'll get?

And in what way don't they want to accept the situation (the situation being a prediction of an event that has not happened and cannot be predicted)?

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

These two comments are closely related.
The people in the above survey are not going to get their pony...yet they don't seem to want to accept that situation.

In any case, if you think someone is doing something mind-bogglingly dim it might be worth pointing that out.

Look sonny, We voted to shoot ourselves in the foot so do something productive and get loading the shotguns or are you a traitor????

 

[ddt]

Just in case you really are unfamiliar with the phrase:

https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/blue-murder

Thank you. Yes, I am (eh, was until your post) unfamiliar with that phrase. I'm a bit at a loss why the Sun would decry May's early elections, but I retract what I said about this headline.

 

[Craig B]

People want the best outcome. There's no surprise there, it's still a mandate and a massive one at that.



No, stupid is better illustrated by people who refuse to accept that they're not going to get what they want and prefer to tear their garments and wail as opposed to accepting our position and working productively for the future.

Some people get what they want, and Le Pen is neither a prole nor a moron.

French TV channel TF1 removed a European Union flag from its studio after far-right presidential candidate Marine Le Pen insisted only the French flag should be visible behind her during an interview with the broadcaster.

According to local media, TF1 agreed to remove the flag Tuesday night after Le Pen said in a statement that she was campaigning to be the president of France, “not of the European Commission.”

Le Pen added in the statement that the EU “did great harm” to France and its citizens.​

Well I think Brexit will do much harm to British and other EU citizens, and if Le Pen is entitled to fight for her opinions, so are her opponents; and we won't be browbeaten or bamboozled into acquiescence.

 

[ddt]

No, that really is not hairsplitting. It was government policy (explicit in the manifesto) to remain in the EU. Therefore the Lords would be perfectly entitled to vote that way rather than support the deal that had been negotiated over 2 years. The government is in a minority in the Lords, and the Lords has a large majority in support of membership of the EU. This is not the minor issue that you wish it to be.

Let's look at the Conservative Party manifesto 2015. Their EU stance starts on page 72 (74th page in the PDF). The headline is "Real change in our relationship with the European Union". Then the first bullet point is

give you a say over whether we should stay in or leave the EU, with an in-out referendum by the end of 2017

and then the first paragraph:

The EU needs to change. And it is time for the British people – not politicians – to have their say. Only the Conservative Party will deliver real change and real choice on Europe, with an in-out referendum by the end of 2017

and the last paragraph on that first page ends with:

David Cameron has committed that he will only lead a government that offers an in-out referendum. We will hold that in-out referendum before the end of 2017 and respect the outcome

Furthermore, there's a splash on that page that reads:

We believe in letting the people decide: so we will hold an in-out referendum on our membership of the EU before the end of 2017

On the next page it reads, as first point of their plan of action:

We will let you decide whether to stay in or leave the EU We will legislate in the first session of the next Parliament for an in-out referendum to be held on Britain’s membership of the EU before the end of 2017. We will negotiate a new settlement for Britain in the EU. And then we will ask the British people whether they want to stay in on this basis, or leave. We will honour the result of the referendum, whatever the outcome

And whatever you think of that, that's exactly what David Cameron has done. It's all spelled out in detail in the 2015 manifesto.

So, no, a new 2017 manifesto will not give May extra protection from opposition from the Lords under the Salisbury Convention. And I can only repeat again: it's still only a convention, they may ignore it.

 

[Tolls]

How do you know what they'll get?

And in what way don't they want to accept the situation (the situation being a prediction of an event that has not happened and cannot be predicted)?

We haven't left yet...

 

[ddt]

Seems to be re-considering now that the BBC and ITV have said they'll empty-chair her, although it would have been funnier if they'd threatened to emulate the Rt Hon Tub Of Lard MP, say with a pair of shoes.

Or with a comedian who does an over-the-top imitation of May.

 

[baron]

Some people get what they want, and Le Pen is neither a prole nor a moron.

French TV channel TF1 removed a European Union flag from its studio after far-right presidential candidate Marine Le Pen insisted only the French flag should be visible behind her during an interview with the broadcaster.

According to local media, TF1 agreed to remove the flag Tuesday night after Le Pen said in a statement that she was campaigning to be the president of France, “not of the European Commission.”

Le Pen added in the statement that the EU “did great harm” to France and its citizens.​

Well I think Brexit will do much harm to British and other EU citizens, and if Le Pen is entitled to fight for her opinions, so are her opponents; and we won't be browbeaten or bamboozled into acquiescence.

What has Le Pen to do with Brexit?

 

[baron]

We haven't left yet...

Only in the same way as you've signed the contract but not yet had delivery of the car. Or, in remoaners' terms, you've jumped off the cliff but you haven't yet hit the bottom.

(Not sure how your post was relevant to my point, BTW).

 

[ddt]

In this case, I would say it is the sensitive position that her government has put Britain in regarding Brexit. She already has a majority, so why bother with an election? Because she thinks she is assured of a bigger majority? Well, okay, but I think it's a silly gamble, and therefore on the face of it an arrogant one.

In order to stifle dissent about the Brexit course within her own ranks. There are enough Tory MPs who are unhappy with her hard-Brexit approach. A bigger majority means that she doesn't have to bother about.

OTOH, Sean O'Grady in the Independent argues that May does it to stifle the hard-Brexiteer Tory MPs. So, her hard-line approach this far has been a ploy to keep them happy? That seems a bit of a CT.

Actually, the more I think about it, the more it's win/win for Ms May.

Either she gains an unassailable majority and can do what she likes or it all goes horribly wrong and she can slink away quietly without too much of the failure attaching itself to her.

I don't see any reasonable scenario in which the Tories don't win a majority. So May has to continue on governing, or she has to try and slink out with some lame excuse like "spending more time with the family", which then will be met with much ridicule.

 

[Pixel42]

Sorry, but if someone deliberately sets fire to the room both of us are locked into I am never going to stop complaining about it, no matter how often they tell me to shut up and help feed the fire.

 

[Craig B]

What has Le Pen to do with Brexit?

Plenty.

 

[baron]

Plenty.

Le Pen has no influence whatsoever regarding Brexit. I have no idea why you've ignored the topic in favour of talking about her.

 

[ddt]

Are you arguing that she wants to explicitly put the government's policy on Brexit in the manifesto in order to prevent the Lords from delaying the passage of the Brexit bill?

Yes.

And how is that going to help?

"Dear Lords, we promised in our manifesto a free pony for every Brit and here's the lump of coal that Santa gave us. Please sign off".

The government's expectations of Brexit are wildly unrealistic. Concretely, they want continuance of the Common Market but a stop to free EU immigration. That is not going to happen.