UK General Election

MikeG said:
Hyperbolic bollocks. She is putting her ideas to a general election. She is entitled to want to put her point of view forward, and she will be judged on it by the electorate. There is nothing undemocratic in that at all.
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Agreed. I don't like May, but she is not doing anthing that is not traditional in the British system. Calling a new election when you think you party has the advantage is somthing that every party has done.We could get into a debate about if the American System of fixed terms for the legislature has some advanteges over the British system, but that is another discussion.
IMHO Labor has only itself to blame for the mess it is in.
 
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dudalb said:
Agreed. I don't like May, but she is not doing anthing that is not traditional in the British system. Calling a new election when you think you party has the advantage is somthing that every party has done.
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Except the rules were specifically changed to stop this and May was only too happy to abide by those rules, right up until she saw a chance to game the system. May is doing this purely and simply to dilute the influence of various groups of backbench MPs who might oppose some of her plans. You will have Tory ranks filled with newbie MPs full of ambition who will toe the line to avoid ruining their prospects by being labelled rebels.
 
MikeG said:
Oh OK. Apologies. Perhaps you'd like to make it again, a bit more clearly. Somehow I've missed something you think is there.
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Well as it was too complicated for you, the election will have zero impact on the outcome as we going to have the hardest of hardest of Brexits regardless, was that really so hard for you to understand?
 
Garrison said:
Except the rules were specifically changed to stop this and May was only too happy to abide by those rules, right up until she saw a chance to game the system. May is doing this purely and simply to dilute the influence of various groups of backbench MPs who might oppose some of her plans. You will have Tory ranks filled with newbie MPs full of ambition who will toe the line to avoid ruining their prospects by being labelled rebels.
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That she is able to do so means the rules to prevent it from happening are flawed and left a loophole of some type.
IMHO the only way to prevent this is to go to fixed terms for legislatures.
 
Garrison said:
Well as it was too complicated for you, the election will have zero impact on the outcome as we going to have the hardest of hardest of Brexits regardless, was that really so hard for you to understand?
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Was it too much to expect that you read the bit I quoted, and understand that my response was to that, and not to the point you are making now and also made previously? There will be no "two months lost", despite your claim.

Now, I accept your general point, reiterated in the above quote about it making no difference to the "hardness" of Brexit. How about you accept that you were wrong in asserting there would be any lost negotiating time, and that this is what I was referring to in the post you were so snide about?
 
Garrison said:
Except the rules were specifically changed to stop this and May was only too happy to abide by those rules, right up until she saw a chance to game the system. May is doing this purely and simply to dilute the influence of various groups of backbench MPs who might oppose some of her plans. You will have Tory ranks filled with newbie MPs full of ambition who will toe the line to avoid ruining their prospects by being labelled rebels.
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Good point.

Whilst I do not think she is a Putin or Erdogan as she was referred to earlier, there is her past which for me always irks. Namely, she failed time and time again as Home Secretary to deport people and this the Daily Mail, time and time, threw back in her face. Her ally.

Since becoming PM she passed through the "Snoopers Charter" - Dec 31 2016 and her government has recently voted through the right to unwrangle their equivalent human rights laws, which are based on the European Union Laws I believe, and to create a new set.

I would not invite her for tea.
 
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dudalb said:
That she is able to do so means the rules to prevent it from happening are flawed and left a loophole of some type.
IMHO the only way to prevent this is to go to fixed terms for legislatures.
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No, the rules are not flawed. They require a 2/3 supermajority for a decision for an early election. Corbyn is the fool that he agrees with this.
 
MikeG said:
Hyperbolic bollocks. She is putting her ideas to a general election. She is entitled to want to put her point of view forward, and she will be judged on it by the electorate. There is nothing undemocratic in that at all.
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No, it's not just putting ideas to the general election. The quote clearly shows that she accuses MPs that they would be doing their job as if it were a bad thing. That shows undemocratic tendencies. She may not be in the same league as Putin or Erdogan, but the quote is still deeply worrying.
 
ddt said:
Of course not. I think the Tories will even get a 2/3 majority in the Commons.

But a EU negotiator can still say: I don't know whom I'll be dealing with.
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An EU negotiator can say anything but if it's blatantly untrue there's little mileage in it.
 
ddt said:
No, the rules are not flawed. They require a 2/3 supermajority for a decision for an early election. Corbyn is the fool that he agrees with this.
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With a rebellious Parliamentary party eager to be rid of him, I doubt he had much confidence that he would be obeyed if decided otherwise. His backbenchers will see this election as the way to be rid of him, and they can all rest a bit easier now that the party has agreed that all sitting MPs will automatically be selected as candidates.
 
ddt said:
No, it's not just putting ideas to the general election. The quote clearly shows that she accuses MPs that they would be doing their job as if it were a bad thing. That shows undemocratic tendencies. She may not be in the same league as Putin or Erdogan, but the quote is still deeply worrying.
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But you said she was in the same league as Putin and Erdogan.

Besides, she is perfectly right to try to circumvent the chaos that would ensue if 2 years of negotiation were to be rejected by parliament, if that circumvention is entirely democratic (as it is). People complain about a hard Brexit, but having the result of negotiations chucked out after they've finished would mean we would be dumped out of the EU with no deal at all, which would be a ridiculous situation.
 
MikeG said:
With a rebellious Parliamentary party eager to be rid of him, I doubt he had much confidence that he would be obeyed if decided otherwise. His backbenchers will see this election as the way to be rid of him, and they can all rest a bit easier now that the party has agreed that all sitting MPs will automatically be selected as candidates.
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IOW, Corbyn puts his personal interests above those of the party and those of the country.

I wonder, though, how many sitting Labour MPs are thrilled with the prospect of standing in these elections.
 
MikeG said:
But you said she was in the same league as Putin and Erdogan.
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I concede that part as hyperbole.

MikeG said:
Besides, she is perfectly right to try to circumvent the chaos that would ensue if 2 years of negotiation were to be rejected by parliament, if that circumvention is entirely democratic (as it is). People complain about a hard Brexit, but having the result of negotiations chucked out after they've finished would mean we would be dumped out of the EU with no deal at all, which would be a ridiculous situation.
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Of course it would be a bit of a bind. The more reason to stop stalling, get on with those negotiations and with realistic goals, not a white paper that would even have Santa rolling on the floor laughing.

But it's Parliament's right, nay, its duty, to vet the actions of the Crown and its ministers. Since the days of Edward I, if I'm not mistaken.
 
I think May is a jerk doing a lame Maggie Thacther imitation,but calling her a dictator is really over the top.
Yeah, she is gaming the system. That means the system needs to be changed.
 
ddt said:
......But it's Parliament's right, nay, its duty, to vet the actions of the Crown and its ministers. Since the days of Edward I, if I'm not mistaken.
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We're not disputing that. We're disputing that seeking to have the best majority you can, is, without the hyperbole, undemocratic. I contend that it isn't, provided all your actions to achieve that end are democratic and follow centuries of convention. I can't see a problem with what May is doing in this regard.
 
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