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Don't Jaywalk in Sacremento

The video in the link has been changed since it was posted. The original video was unedited cell phone footage. Later, the video you saw, was an edited news report that included dash cam footage and cell phone footage, and commentary, mixed.

In the dashcam footage, he does say that line, although it is not the first thing he says as he takes off his jacket. The first thing is "I ain't got nothing." Then, after the jacket is off, he utters the line above, which prompts the cop to attack.

It is unclear what happened before he took off his jacket. Did the officer ask if the man had a weapon? Or possibly did he even ask the man to remove the jacket? I couldn't tell.

The added footage does make me very slightly more sympathetic to the officer, and who knows, perhaps even more information will come out that makes the attack justified. We'll see. That's what investigations are for. Still, I don't think it is looking good for the cop. It still seems like the best case scenario for the cop is the "If you don't do exactly what I demand the moment I demand it, I have the right to beat the hell out of you" defense.

It's a tough sell.

These videos always look bad for the cop at first, that's why people post them. Some turn out to be as bad as they look, others not. But once it's posted and deemed "an outrage" it is hard for people to admit they were wrong if/when new evidence comes out that supports the officer.

When I see such a video here, I know that the person posting it usually wants it to be the cops fault.
 
These videos always look bad for the cop at first, that's why people post them. Some turn out to be as bad as they look, others not. But once it's posted and deemed "an outrage" it is hard for people to admit they were wrong if/when new evidence comes out that supports the officer.

When I see such a video here, I know that the person posting it usually wants it to be the cops fault.

Which is why all cops should have body cameras. It makes these situations much easier to resolve.
 
I was always raised to understand that you do what a police officer tells you to do, when and how they tell you to do it.

It's good advice but....why?

Is it because a cop has absolute authority, either legal or moral? Is it because a directive from a policeman is equivalent to a court order, which is to say it is something which must be followed, and failure to do so is a violation of the law?

No. The reason is much simpler. You should always do what they tell you to do because they carry guns, and clubs, and tasers, and goodness knows what else, and they are trained fighters. Also, while it is not necessarily a violation of the law to follow their orders, it might be under some circumstances. Also, and this is important, in the event that somehow there is a court dispute, they are far, far, more likely to be believe by judge and/or jury than you are. Also, and this is very, very, important.....some of them are not good people. Some of them will be perfectly happy to beat the snot out of you, and then lie and say that you attacked them, and you find that you get the snot beat out of you, and are facing felony charges.

In other words, they have power, and influence, and friends, and if you fight them you will lose, so whether they are right or wrong, it's really a good idea to do what they tell you to do.

A lot of people have forgotten that reason. Sadly, that includes a lot of policemen. We have it drilled into our heads that we should obey the orders of policemen so much that some of us, including some policemen, actually think that non-compliance with their orders gives them a right to assault you.

It is impossible to fairly judge a man based on a few seconds of video footage, but this cop looks like one of the people who has made that mistake, of thinking that failure to follow his instructions was a violation of the law and also an acceptable reason to attack the man. I base that on the fact that he stopped the man for jaywalking, an offense that is just never, ever, charged. Then, he immediately orders the man to remove his hands from his pockets. Then, within seconds, he informs the man that he will take him down to the ground if he doesn't follow orders. Of course there is the assault itself. And then, there is also the question, "Why didn't you comply?" That question strongly suggest that he believes compliance, complete and unquestioning, is mandatory.

A lot of people reading the above will be puzzled because they, too, think that compliance is mandatory, and that failure to comply gives the officer the right to use force to ensure compliance. That is incorrect. There are circumstances where it is true, but it isn't a blanket truth, and a lot of people don't realize that.

I suspect the officer in this video was a bit taken aback at the hubbub surrounding this violent confrontation, and I suspect he was stunned when the Sacramento Chief of Police described his behavior as unacceptable. It wasn't what he expected, because it wasn't what he has been taught.
 
It's slightly more in-depth than that. For those that wish to talk about the legalities of pedestrians crossing roads in California:

leginfo.legislature.ca.gov


Yeah, some of the (a) have no (b), I presume those were removed by later laws. I think there was a (b) without an (a) somewhere...

And many times those are enforced only when they want to harass someone. A guy in a rural area near here decided to walk home from the bar because he didn't feel like he should drive. Cop stopped him and gave him enough of a beatdown to break his arm, on the grounds that he was walking along the wrong side of the road. That one ended up settling out of court for an unspecified sum.
 
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It is impossible to fairly judge a man based on a few seconds of video footage, but this cop looks like one of the people who has made that mistake, of thinking that failure to follow his instructions was a violation of the law and also an acceptable reason to attack the man. I base that on the fact that he stopped the man for jaywalking, an offense that is just never, ever, charged. Then, he immediately orders the man to remove his hands from his pockets. Then, within seconds, he informs the man that he will take him down to the ground if he doesn't follow orders. Of course there is the assault itself. And then, there is also the question, "Why didn't you comply?" That question strongly suggest that he believes compliance, complete and unquestioning, is mandatory.
There's a simple word for such a person. A fascist.

Here's the dashcam footage

It's 11 minutes long, but you only have to watch the first 2 to 3 minutes to see what led up to the confrontation.

You already linked to two webpages that argue that Mr. Cain was not jaywalking. Even if Mr. Fascist was confused about jaywalking laws - what Mr. Cain did was the only reasonable way to cross the intersection.

You can hear, after Mr. Fascist stops the car, him going after Mr. Cain and accusing him falsely twice of jaywalking and threatening to "take him to the ground". Meanwhile, another car passes by and stops on the left hand side of the road. Mr. Cain, still followed by Mr. Fascist, then crosses the road, and the confrontation takes place in front of that car that just stopped there. While Mr. Cain has made not a single move towards Mr. Fascist, Mr. Fascist then is so brazen to assault him in front of one or more witnesses, the occupant(s) of that car, after he ordered Mr. Cain to go lie on the ground. He must at least have been aware that that car just arrived there and was still occupied.

Sacramento PD has not released the name of Mr. Fascist, and I refuse to call him "officer"; this behaviour is more belonging to a guard at Dachau than of an officer of the law.
 
I can hardly believe I did not catch this feed-into yesterdays:

Sacre mentos!!!!!!!!!!
 
Which is why all cops should have body cameras. It makes these situations much easier to resolve.
Indeed - protection for both police and citizens

It's good advice but....why?

Is it because a cop has absolute authority, either legal or moral? Is it because a directive from a policeman is equivalent to a court order, which is to say it is something which must be followed, and failure to do so is a violation of the law?

No. The reason is much simpler. You should always do what they tell you to do because they carry guns, and clubs, and tasers, and goodness knows what else, and they are trained fighters. Also, while it is not necessarily a violation of the law to follow their orders, it might be under some circumstances. Also, and this is important, in the event that somehow there is a court dispute, they are far, far, more likely to be believe by judge and/or jury than you are. Also, and this is very, very, important.....some of them are not good people. Some of them will be perfectly happy to beat the snot out of you, and then lie and say that you attacked them, and you find that you get the snot beat out of you, and are facing felony charges.

In other words, they have power, and influence, and friends, and if you fight them you will lose, so whether they are right or wrong, it's really a good idea to do what they tell you to do.

A lot of people have forgotten that reason. Sadly, that includes a lot of policemen. We have it drilled into our heads that we should obey the orders of policemen so much that some of us, including some policemen, actually think that non-compliance with their orders gives them a right to assault you.
It is impossible to fairly judge a man based on a few seconds of video footage, but this cop looks like one of the people who has made that mistake, of thinking that failure to follow his instructions was a violation of the law and also an acceptable reason to attack the man. I base that on the fact that he stopped the man for jaywalking, an offense that is just never, ever, charged. Then, he immediately orders the man to remove his hands from his pockets. Then, within seconds, he informs the man that he will take him down to the ground if he doesn't follow orders. Of course there is the assault itself. And then, there is also the question, "Why didn't you comply?" That question strongly suggest that he believes compliance, complete and unquestioning, is mandatory.

A lot of people reading the above will be puzzled because they, too, think that compliance is mandatory, and that failure to comply gives the officer the right to use force to ensure compliance. That is incorrect. There are circumstances where it is true, but it isn't a blanket truth, and a lot of people don't realize that. I suspect the officer in this video was a bit taken aback at the hubbub surrounding this violent confrontation, and I suspect he was stunned when the Sacramento Chief of Police described his behavior as unacceptable. It wasn't what he expected, because it wasn't what he has been taught.

Well put.

The more I think about it, the more I think that jaywalking rules are pretty invidious. I feel far happier with the UK situation (which is the same in much of Europe) where there are specific roads where pedestrians are prohibited, but in general, they are allowed.

And many times those are enforced only when they want to harass someone. A guy in a rural area near here decided to walk home from the bar because he didn't feel like he should drive. Cop stopped him and gave him enough of a beatdown to break his arm, on the grounds that he was walking along the wrong side of the road. That one ended up settling out of court for an unspecified sum.

This is part of the reason for me thinking they are invidious. As well as that, making it harder to walk between two places, whilst making it easier to drive probably has a public-health impact.
 
The government has some really badass don't text and drive commercials,



Could use some jaywalking ones... that dead person I saw on the road the other day beside the cement truck did it for me personally.
 
According to Wiki, you are somewhat mistaken in your understanding of the laws in Europe as it is illegal in some countries depending on the road in question in others.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jaywalking#Legal_view_by_jurisdiction
It seems lots of places have rules to the effect of "you must cross at the zebra crossing if you are with in XXmeters of one."
Yes, but all those rules amount to "you are allowed to cross the street everywhere except near a zebra" - and that exception makes sense, what else is the zebra for? OTOH, American rules seem to amount to "you're allowed to cross the street nowhere except <incomprehensible legal set of rules that differ from town to town>".

In the Netherlands, the law also used to be "everywhere except within 30 meters of a zebra you could use without having to cross other streets - now it's something like "use your common sense". I have, as a law-abiding citizen, a couple of times walked 30 paces from a zebra with a red light to legally cross the street.

We even have street furniture which are not crossings where traffic has to stop for pedestrians (e.g. zebra, pelican, puffin), but which nontheless facilitate crossing when there are appropriate gaps in traffic:
Are we talking traffic or the directions through a zoo? :p

(I did follow your link but saw nothing that says to me "hey that resembles a pelican")
 
Are we talking traffic or the directions through a zoo? :p

(I did follow your link but saw nothing that says to me "hey that resembles a pelican")

It was originally PELICON for PEdestrian LIght CONtrol crossing, but obviously with zebras being so well established, colloquial usage just evolved it into another animal. Apparently puffin comes from Pedestrian User Friendly Intelligent crossing, but I suspect there they deliberately worked back from a bird name to continue with the bird theme. I even forgot about the Toucan.
 
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There's a simple word for such a person. A fascist.

Here's the dashcam footage

It's 11 minutes long, but you only have to watch the first 2 to 3 minutes to see what led up to the confrontation...

Thanks for posting that.

If you ever really look into this, law enforcement management, you discover that a) there are a lot of good police commanders out there and b) they know these kinds of cops exist. In fact, many of the commanders have less than full confidence in their people in the field. But what to do about it?

The problem the commanders face is often resistance by city officials -- aka known as their bosses -- often for political reasons. And that's driven by the public. As we saw here, people were writing that the man beaten by the officer had become confrontational, challenged the officer to a fight and so what do you expect is going to happen? Anyway, when a police officer tells you to do something you do it, you don't question it or argue with them. If you appear not to respect the officer's authority, who is really to blame if the cop loses his temper? Those attitudes are a problem for the command. Many of them say, when the public truly demands police change tactics, change the way some officers interact with the public, then it will happen. But not until.

How to discipline officers, how to demand they observe proper behavior, when a fairly sizeable segment of the public doesn't really support that. When a sizeable segment of the public thinks cops aren't tough enough. Police officers are also unionized and protected by arbitration procedures. If they are liable to be charged with a crime than the same legal protections every American citizen has kick in. The cop who violates a citizen's rights is usually the first to excercise those rights if they themselves are facing possible prosecution.

By the way, if you want to learn some of the inside stuff you have to do some digging. Law enforcement journals are a good source. Commanders tend to be a bit more candid when talking to a writer from a professional law enforcement journal than when talking to a reporter from the Daily Bugle.
 
In order to win a lawsuit against the city, Mr. Cain would have to show that the harassment and false arrest displayed by the cop were part of a pattern.

Guess what?

http://www.sacbee.com/news/local/crime/article144743834.html

It seems that black people in Sacramento are more likely to be ticketed for jaywalking than white people.

Mr. Cain, what happened to you was wrong, but it could turn out to be your lucky day.
 
In order to win a lawsuit against the city, Mr. Cain would have to show that the harassment and false arrest displayed by the cop were part of a pattern.

Guess what?

http://www.sacbee.com/news/local/crime/article144743834.html

It seems that black people in Sacramento are more likely to be ticketed for jaywalking than white people.

Mr. Cain, what happened to you was wrong, but it could turn out to be your lucky day.

More in the legacy of the "quality of life" policing promoted by the likes of Giuliani. Can't just beat 'em any more, find nice little harassment laws like Stop-And-Frisk, Noise Abatement, Loitering, or Jaywalking Violations. Each of those sort of laws, applied evenly, can have a positive effect but applied unevenly, as the courts have ruled on Stop-and-Frisk (and on the 1870s Loitering Laws), they are used in combination with racial profiling and are used as a form of oppression.
 
More in the legacy of the "quality of life" policing promoted by the likes of Giuliani. Can't just beat 'em any more, find nice little harassment laws like Stop-And-Frisk, Noise Abatement, Loitering, or Jaywalking Violations. Each of those sort of laws, applied evenly, can have a positive effect but applied unevenly, as the courts have ruled on Stop-and-Frisk (and on the 1870s Loitering Laws), they are used in combination with racial profiling and are used as a form of oppression.

This topic gives me an idea of how the Second Amendment proponents feel. I like the fact that I have the right to walk in the road, whilst cars are only there with permission.

It does feel like a pretty good aspect of my liberty.
 
From that article:
Matthew said the department has two codes it uses to cite jaywalkers, a city ordinance and a state vehicle code. The city code requires pedestrians use a crosswalk if they are within 300 feet of one. The state code forbids pedestrians from crossing the street between adjacent intersections where there are traffic lights or police directing traffic.
I think the distance of 300 feet in the city code is pretty rich, but OK. The state code, however, is absurd. How do you know if the two nearest intersections have traffic lights? Do you have to check them out first and then come back to the place where you wanted to cross the street? The next intersection can be quite some more distance than 300 feet away. That law is by design meant to harass pedestrians.

The penalty for the state violation is $197, according to the Judicial Council of California fee schedules. The penalty for the city violation was not immediately available.
This is even richer. The city's police officers seem not to know the jaywalking codes, and the city doesn't know the penalty. And that $197 is outrageous.

Matthew said she was uncertain why North Sacramento had significantly higher numbers of jaywalking citations. She noted that the area includes major thoroughfares such as Arden Way, El Camino Avenue, and Marysville, Del Paso and Rio Linda boulevards that are potentially hazardous to cross, and where crosswalks may be less common.
Say what? If those boulevards are more hazardous to cross, it's reason to have more crosswalks, with traffic lights, not fewer.
 
From that article:

I think the distance of 300 feet in the city code is pretty rich, but OK. The state code, however, is absurd. How do you know if the two nearest intersections have traffic lights? Do you have to check them out first and then come back to the place where you wanted to cross the street? The next intersection can be quite some more distance than 300 feet away. That law is by design meant to harass pedestrians.


This is even richer. The city's police officers seem not to know the jaywalking codes, and the city doesn't know the penalty. And that $197 is outrageous.


Say what? If those boulevards are more hazardous to cross, it's reason to have more crosswalks, with traffic lights, not fewer.
About the only think I agree with in this post is that $197 is absurd for a jay walking ticket. 100 meters is a pretty common rule for when you should cross at a crosswalk in Europe. 50 is more common but 100 is a thing, which is shows that 300 feet isn't some crazy distance that Sacramento came up with. Aside from highways, I find that I can't think of a location I've been where you couldn't just look down the street and see the next intersection and if it had a light.

The roads describes are probably major feeders which would make them more hazardous to cross and have fewer crossing. Sure, bad design from the time when nobody gave a **** about pedestrians in the US but not uncommon still. It would however explain why more tickets are given there.
 
About the only think I agree with in this post is that $197 is absurd for a jay walking ticket. 100 meters is a pretty common rule for when you should cross at a crosswalk in Europe. 50 is more common but 100 is a thing, which is shows that 300 feet isn't some crazy distance that Sacramento came up with. Aside from highways, I find that I can't think of a location I've been where you couldn't just look down the street and see the next intersection and if it had a light.

The roads describes are probably major feeders which would make them more hazardous to cross and have fewer crossing. Sure, bad design from the time when nobody gave a **** about pedestrians in the US but not uncommon still. It would however explain why more tickets are given there.

You're bending over to explain away a situation much more readily explained by the common US phenomenon of the Po-Po liking to ticket blacks. The stats provided by the SacBee show that blacks are ticketed in disproportionate amounts to their population in that district (District 2). 5:1 compared to white jaywalkers. Period.

Further, you're speculating that these are "probably major feeders". Where do you get that information?
 

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