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The Trials of Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito: Part 24

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If it is the American Bar Association Rule 6.1, then it means an attorney can be disciplined if someone complains under this rule. In effect, it is a duty = an obligation.

The quoted post provides a very strange reading or interpretation of the original document. I will discuss that issue briefly and, since Vixen has brought up ABA Rules, I will present some ABA Standards that are actually relevant to the Knox - Sollecito case, and could be considered in evaluation of alleged violations of Convention Article 6 (equality of arms, providing adequate facilities for defense) by Italy in a judgment of the ECRH.

The American Bar Association writes:

"Public Service
Rule 6.1 Voluntary Pro Bono Publico Service

Every lawyer has a professional responsibility to provide legal services to those unable to pay. A lawyer should aspire to render at least (50) hours of pro bono publico legal services per year. In fulfilling this responsibility, the lawyer should:

(a) provide a substantial majority of the (50) hours of legal services without fee or expectation of fee to:

(1) persons of limited means or

(2) charitable, religious, civic, community, governmental and educational organizations in matters that are designed primarily to address the needs of persons of limited means; and ...."

Source: http://www.americanbar.org/groups/p...e_6_1_voluntary_pro_bono_publico_service.html

As Stachys and London John have pointed out previously, this Rule 6.1 is described in its titlw as "voluntary" and indicates in its body that "a lawyer should aspire to render" pro bono services consisting of a certain number of hours per year.

I will not speculate to excess as to the reason for the distortion in meaning of the Rule, claiming that it is "In effect, a duty = an obligation" - as posted by Vixen. Perhaps Vixen did not see the important words "voluntary" or "should aspire", or perhaps Vixen misapprehends the meaning of the use of the word "Rule". But I can provide assurance that no attorney or other person in the US can be disciplined for not following a voluntary rule, even if someone complains. I have checked the Rules for Professional Conduct for Lawyers for one state as adopted by that state's Supreme Court (the state was chosen at random out of the 50), and the voluntary nature of Rule 6.1 was maintained. That may not represent the position of every state.

More relevant to the Knox - Sollecito case are the Criminal Justice Standards of the ABA (http://www.americanbar.org/groups/criminal_justice/standards.html).

While some may argue that these ABA standards only apply in the US, that is not necessarily completely accurate. The ECHR in judging cases will sometimes rely upon comparative law of the various Council of Europe states as well as the law or practice in the US and Canada. It tends to do this if the law or practice in the Respondent State is vague or lacking, in the opinion of the ECHR. Thus, ABA Standards may be considered by the ECHR when it develops its case law.

Examples of potentially relevant ABA Standards (the DNA Standards may be of interest if the larger case is reviewed by the ECHR' highlighted text represents areas in which the Italian authorities were especially deficient in the Knox - Sollecito case):

Standard 11-2.1 Prosecutorial disclosure

(a) The prosecution should, within a specified and reasonable time prior to trial, disclose to the defense the following information and material and permit inspection, copying, testing, and photographing of disclosed documents or tangible objects: ....

(viii) Any material or information within the prosecutor’s possession or control which tends to negate the guilt of the defendant as to the offense charged or which would tend to reduce the punishment of the defendant.
....
Standard 2.5 Manner of collecting and preserving DNA evidence

(a) DNA evidence should be collected and preserved in a manner designed to document its identity, ensure its integrity, and, whenever possible, ensure its availability for testing and retesting. Specifically:

(i) the evidence should be properly handled, packaged, labeled, and stored; and
(ii) the location where and the place or thing from which the evidence was collected or the person from whom or the entity from which it was collected, the date and time it was collected, the identity of the person who collected it, and the manner in which it was collected and preserved should be documented. ....

Standard 4.1 Disclosure

(a) The prosecutor should be required, within a specified and reasonable time prior to trial, to make available to the defense the following information and material relating to DNA evidence:

(i) laboratory reports as provided in Standard 3.3;

(ii) if different from or not contained in any laboratory report, a written description of the substance of the proposed testimony of each expert, the expert’s opinion, and the underlying basis of that opinion;

(iii) the laboratory case file and case notes;

(iv) a curriculum vitae for each testifying expert and for each person involved in the testing;

(v) the written material specified in Standard 3.1(a);

(vi) reports of all proficiency examinations of each testifying expert and each person involved in the testing, with further information on proficiency testing discoverable on a showing of particularized need;

(vii) the chain of custody documents specified in Standard 2.5;

(viii) all raw electronic data produced during testing; (ix) reports of laboratory contamination and other laboratory problems affecting testing procedures or results relevant to the evaluation of the procedures and test results obtained in the case and corrective actions taken in response; and

(x) a list of collected items that there is reason to believe contained DNA evidence but have been destroyed or lost, or have otherwise become unavailable;

(xi) material or information within the prosecutor’s possession or control, including laboratory information or material, that would tend to negate the guilt of the defendant or reduce the punishment of the defendant.
 
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Where did Zellner get her $millions in revenues, then?
Already done to death in this very thread. Were you not paying attention?

Ferguson was not 'exonerated', he had his conviction vacated,
Vacated means the prior judgment is rendered null and void. Why do you not know this?

because one of the witnesses at the original trial was pressurised to withdrew their statement.
Nope. Two witnesses withdrew their prior testimony which was coerced by the cops and two new witnesses provided their testimony, which the prosecution had brushed under the rug.
Ferguson's co-defendant confessed to their committing the crime.
Nope, Eriickson had no clue what happened.

A juror who was present for the full trial and saw and heard all of the evidence, remains 100% certain of his guilt.
Juror? It is to laugh.

When you say she does it all 'pro bono', I suspect a massive porky pie. All US attorneys are obliged to do 50 hour pa pro bono,
Factually incorrect. There is no such obligation. You simply made that up.

but I doubt Zellner does it for any other reason than to line her own pockets.
Unfounded opinion.

Fair enough, but not if it robs the families of the victims of crime of justice.
But in your book, fair game if it applies to the accused. That is a particularly odious position to hold.
 
Already done to death in this very thread. Were you not paying attention?

Vacated means the prior judgment is rendered null and void. Why do you not know this?

Nope. Two witnesses withdrew their prior testimony which was coerced by the cops and two new witnesses provided their testimony, which the prosecution had brushed under the rug.
Nope, Eriickson had no clue what happened.

Juror? It is to laugh.

Factually incorrect. There is no such obligation. You simply made that up.

Unfounded opinion.

But in your book, fair game if it applies to the accused. That is a particularly odious position to hold.


If you have reliance on a controversial wiki entry obviously updated by Ryan Ferguson supporters, you are naive. I looked into this case, going back to the earliest newspaper reports of the court case and also the pros and cons of the 'vacated' verdict. And surprise, surprise, I discovered that it was not a clear-cut 'exoneration' (=declared factually innocent), it is just a clever piece of lawyership, based on discrediting the co-defendant. (Echos of Damien Echols.)

Vacated does NOT mean exonerated. Why do you think Cascarios (=also vacated, and the young victim whose blood was found on his property is lying in an unmarked unhallowed grave) is applying for a certificate of innocence, with prosecutors opposing it. They have no doubt who did it.
 
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The quoted post provides a very strange reading or interpretation of the original document. I will discuss that issue briefly and, since Vixen has brought up ABA Rules, I will present some ABA Standards that are actually relevant to the Knox - Sollecito case, and could be considered in evaluation of alleged violations of Convention Article 6 (equality of arms, providing adequate facilities for defense) by Italy in a judgment of the ECRH.

The American Bar Association writes:

"Public Service
Rule 6.1 Voluntary Pro Bono Publico Service

Every lawyer has a professional responsibility to provide legal services to those unable to pay. A lawyer should aspire to render at least (50) hours of pro bono publico legal services per year. In fulfilling this responsibility, the lawyer should:

(a) provide a substantial majority of the (50) hours of legal services without fee or expectation of fee to:

(1) persons of limited means or

(2) charitable, religious, civic, community, governmental and educational organizations in matters that are designed primarily to address the needs of persons of limited means; and ...."

Source: http://www.americanbar.org/groups/p...e_6_1_voluntary_pro_bono_publico_service.html

As Stachys and London John have pointed out previously, this Rule 6.1 is described in its titlw as "voluntary" and indicates in its body that "a lawyer should aspire to render" pro bono services consisting of a certain number of hours per year.

I will not speculate to excess as to the reason for the distortion in meaning of the Rule, claiming that it is "In effect, a duty = an obligation" - as posted by Vixen. Perhaps Vixen did not see the important words "voluntary" or "should aspire", or perhaps Vixen misapprehends the meaning of the use of the word "Rule". But I can provide assurance that no attorney or other person in the US can be disciplined for not following a voluntary rule, even if someone complains. I have checked the Rules for Professional Conduct for Lawyers for one state as adopted by that state's Supreme Court (the state was chosen at random out of the 50), and the voluntary nature of Rule 6.1 was maintained. That may not represent the position of every state.

More relevant to the Knox - Sollecito case are the Criminal Justice Standards of the ABA (http://www.americanbar.org/groups/criminal_justice/standards.html).

While some may argue that these ABA standards only apply in the US, that is not necessarily completely accurate. The ECHR in judging cases will sometimes rely upon comparative law of the various Council of Europe states as well as the law or practice in the US and Canada. It tends to do this if the law or practice in the Respondent State is vague or lacking, in the opinion of the ECHR. Thus, ABA Standards may be considered by the ECHR when it develops its case law.

Examples of potentially relevant ABA Standards (the DNA Standards may be of interest if the larger case is reviewed by the ECHR' highlighted text represents areas in which the Italian authorities were especially deficient in the Knox - Sollecito case):

Standard 11-2.1 Prosecutorial disclosure

(a) The prosecution should, within a specified and reasonable time prior to trial, disclose to the defense the following information and material and permit inspection, copying, testing, and photographing of disclosed documents or tangible objects: ....

(viii) Any material or information within the prosecutor’s possession or control which tends to negate the guilt of the defendant as to the offense charged or which would tend to reduce the punishment of the defendant.
....
Standard 2.5 Manner of collecting and preserving DNA evidence

(a) DNA evidence should be collected and preserved in a manner designed to document its identity, ensure its integrity, and, whenever possible, ensure its availability for testing and retesting. Specifically:

(i) the evidence should be properly handled, packaged, labeled, and stored; and
(ii) the location where and the place or thing from which the evidence was collected or the person from whom or the entity from which it was collected, the date and time it was collected, the identity of the person who collected it, and the manner in which it was collected and preserved should be documented. ....

Standard 4.1 Disclosure

(a) The prosecutor should be required, within a specified and reasonable time prior to trial, to make available to the defense the following information and material relating to DNA evidence:

(i) laboratory reports as provided in Standard 3.3;

(ii) if different from or not contained in any laboratory report, a written description of the substance of the proposed testimony of each expert, the expert’s opinion, and the underlying basis of that opinion;

(iii) the laboratory case file and case notes;

(iv) a curriculum vitae for each testifying expert and for each person involved in the testing;

(v) the written material specified in Standard 3.1(a);

(vi) reports of all proficiency examinations of each testifying expert and each person involved in the testing, with further information on proficiency testing discoverable on a showing of particularized need;

(vii) the chain of custody documents specified in Standard 2.5;

(viii) all raw electronic data produced during testing; (ix) reports of laboratory contamination and other laboratory problems affecting testing procedures or results relevant to the evaluation of the procedures and test results obtained in the case and corrective actions taken in response; and

(x) a list of collected items that there is reason to believe contained DNA evidence but have been destroyed or lost, or have otherwise become unavailable;

(xi) material or information within the prosecutor’s possession or control, including laboratory information or material, that would tend to negate the guilt of the defendant or reduce the punishment of the defendant.


'Should aspire' is simply a concession that as long as each member of the ABA makes an effort they will not be deemed to have broken the rule if it falls somewhat short of 50 hours.

However, a rule is a rule, and and a rule that is broken can lead to sanctions.

A member should not expect to not comply.
 
'Should aspire' is simply a concession that as long as each member of the ABA makes an effort they will not be deemed to have broken the rule if it falls somewhat short of 50 hours.

However, a rule is a rule, and and a rule that is broken can lead to sanctions. A member should not expect to not comply.

What are the sanctions? How are they decided upon?

Citations from ABA itself please, otherwise we know your statements are false.

And in your response, please indicate the connection, if any, of your discussion on the ABA rule on pro bono service for lawyers to the topic of this thread which is the Knox - Sollecito case.
 
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What are the sanctions? How are they decided upon?

Citations from ABA itself please, otherwise we know your statements are false.

And in your response, please indicate the connection, if any, of your discussion on the ABA rule on pro bono service for lawyers to the topic of this thread which is the Knox - Sollecito case.

Herewith:

Grounds for Discipline. It shall be a ground for discipline for a lawyer to:

(1) violate or attempt to violate the [State Rules of Professional Conduct], or any other rules of this jurisdiction regarding professional conduct of lawyers;
(2) engage in conduct violating applicable rules of professional conduct of another jurisdiction;
(3) willfully violate a valid order of the court or the board imposing discipline, willfully fail to appear before disciplinary counsel for admonition pursuant to Rule 10(A)(5), willfully fail to comply with a subpoena validly issued under Rule 14, or knowingly fail to respond to a lawful demand from a disciplinary authority, except that this rule does not require disclosure of information otherwise protected by applicable rules relating to confidentiality.

So you see it shall be a ground for discipline to violate its rules. 'Shall' is a rigid compulsion and does not leave any room for interpretation of it.

Stacyhs was bragging that Zellner and Scheck et al in the Innocence industry do it all pro bono. I merely expressed scepticism. I can see that many bar members will do pro bono work for poor, socially deprived prisoners who cannot afford counsel, as part of the ABA rules that they should aspire to do 50 hours per annum.

Let's not confuse this with attorneys making big bucks out of Innocence fraud. That is, guilty persons pretendng to be innocent. How can some of the more unscrupulous lawyers not know it is a fake, therefore we can conclude they are cynically playing the system.

That is my opinion. It is not a calumny.
 
Herewith:



So you see it shall be a ground for discipline to violate its rules. 'Shall' is a rigid compulsion and does not leave any room for interpretation of it.

Stacyhs was bragging that Zellner and Scheck et al in the Innocence industry do it all pro bono. I merely expressed scepticism. I can see that many bar members will do pro bono work for poor, socially deprived prisoners who cannot afford counsel, as part of the ABA rules that they should aspire to do 50 hours per annum.

Let's not confuse this with attorneys making big bucks out of Innocence fraud. That is, guilty persons pretendng to be innocent. How can some of the more unscrupulous lawyers not know it is a fake, therefore we can conclude they are cynically playing the system.

That is my opinion. It is not a calumny.

You have provided a quotation in your post from what appears to be a state bar association or some other organization. You have not provided the source for your quote, but seem to be falsely attributing it to the ABA. In brackets, the quote mentions "State Rules of Professional Conduct" which themselves could not be the Rules of the ABA, but rather, at most, official rules based upon such model rules. That quote does not appear to originate with the ABA, which is the American Bar Association*, a private but important group that is a voluntary association of a relatively small number of lawyers (about 1/3 the US total number of lawyers)** in the US that has no official government responsibility. In the US, each state has its own method for officially certifying (legally qualifying) the professional status of lawyers, as does the federal government and each of certain specialized aspects of federal jurisdiction (for example, patent law).***

Thus, your statement about the ABA sanctioning its members who do not follow a voluntary practice suggested in its Rules is false. Perhaps this falsehood was the result of insufficient research and excessive assumptions, or perhaps some other reason.

You have not provided any connection between your discussion of pro bono work by US lawyers as suggested by the ABA or possibly required by some official state organization and the Knox - Sollecito case insofar as I can determine. I suggest that if there is no connection to the thread topic that the discussion on pro bono work by lawyers in the US that you seem to have initiated be discontinued in this thread.

* "The American Bar Association (ABA), founded August 21, 1878, is a voluntary bar association of lawyers and law students, which is not specific to any jurisdiction in the United States. The ABA's most important stated activities are the setting of academic standards for law schools, and the formulation of model ethical codes related to the legal profession. The ABA has 410,000 members. Its national headquarters are in Chicago, Illinois; it also maintains a significant branch office in Washington, D.C."

Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Bar_Association

** "An attorney at law (or attorney-at-law) in the United States is a practitioner in a court of law who is legally qualified to prosecute and defend actions in such court on the retainer of clients. Alternative terms include counselor (or counsellor-at-law) and lawyer. As of April 2011, there were 1,225,452 licensed attorneys in the United States."

*** "In the United States, the practice of law is conditioned upon admission to practice of law, and specifically admission to the bar of a particular state or other territorial jurisdiction. Regulation of the practice of law is left to the individual states, and their definitions vary. Arguing cases in the federal courts requires separate admission."

Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attorneys_in_the_United_States
 
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....
Let's not confuse this with attorneys making big bucks out of Innocence fraud. That is, guilty persons pretendng to be innocent. How can some of the more unscrupulous lawyers not know it is a fake, therefore we can conclude they are cynically playing the system.
That is my opinion. It is not a calumny.

Your apparently are stating that, in your opinion, a person who is "guilty" and the lawyer for that person are committing fraud if that person "pretends to be innocent", which suggests that you consider that a plea of not guilty by a defendant in a criminal trial is somehow fraudulent on the part of the defendant and the defendant's lawyer.

I don't understand how your statement can be reconciled with the law in the US under the US Constitution. Your statement also cannot be reconciled with the law in Italy under the Italian Constitution*. In Italy, the accused is entitled to a defense at every stage of the proceedings according to the Italian Constitution*. I don't know of any person in Italy (the Knox - Sollecito case happened in Italy, and thus its laws are most relevant) who has been charged with fraud relating to a plea of "not guilty" in a criminal case. If you know of any, could you please provide a citation, including source?

* Constitution of the Italian Republic
Article 24
Anyone may bring cases before a court of law in order to protect their rights under civil and administrative law.
Defense is an inviolable right at every stage and instance of legal proceedings.The poor are entitled by law to proper means for action or defense in all courts.
The law shall define the conditions and forms of reparation in case of judicial errors.

Source: https://www.senato.it/documenti/repository/istituzione/costituzione_inglese.pdf
 
Herewith:



So you see it shall be a ground for discipline to violate its rules. 'Shall' is a rigid compulsion and does not leave any room for interpretation of it.

Stacyhs was bragging that Zellner and Scheck et al in the Innocence industry do it all pro bono. I merely expressed scepticism. I can see that many bar members will do pro bono work for poor, socially deprived prisoners who cannot afford counsel, as part of the ABA rules that they should aspire to do 50 hours per annum.

Let's not confuse this with attorneys making big bucks out of Innocence fraud. That is, guilty persons pretendng to be innocent. How can some of the more unscrupulous lawyers not know it is a fake, therefore we can conclude they are cynically playing the system.

That is my opinion. It is not a calumny.

Hey Vixen, why didn't you provide a link to the source you used? Is it because it is not from the ABA, thus you are again lying and attempting to manipulate and misdirect in order to win an argument because your psyche does not allow you to admit you may have a complete inability to think?
 
Let's not confuse this with attorneys making big bucks out of Innocence fraud. That is, guilty persons pretendng to be innocent. How can some of the more unscrupulous lawyers not know it is a fake, therefore we can conclude they are cynically playing the system.

That is my opinion. It is not a calumny.

How can you accuse someone of "fraud" and then claim it is not calumny?
 
Pro-bono refers to free advocacy. However, people like Kellner and Scheck, whilst they might claim to be pro-bono, really mean 'contingency fee' or 'no win/no fee'. This is why it is not worth their while taking on a case, pro-bono or not - unless there is a possibility of a handsome payout, of which they will make sure their engagement letter sets out how much they will take as their share of any successful proceeds.
Don't believe me? So how come Zellner only takes on high-profile cases, such as Stephen Avery, Ryan Ferguson or Mario Cascarios?

Well, take a look at her Revenues. Big $$$'s for her.

Herewith:



So you see it shall be a ground for discipline to violate its rules. 'Shall' is a rigid compulsion and does not leave any room for interpretation of it.

Stacyhs was bragging that Zellner and Scheck et al in the Innocence industry do it all pro bono. I merely expressed scepticism. I can see that many bar members will do pro bono work for poor, socially deprived prisoners who cannot afford counsel, as part of the ABA rules that they should aspire to do 50 hours per annum.

Let's not confuse this with attorneys making big bucks out of Innocence fraud. That is, guilty persons pretendng to be innocent. How can some of the more unscrupulous lawyers not know it is a fake, therefore we can conclude they are cynically playing the system.
That is my opinion. It is not a calumny.

How can you accuse someone of "fraud" and then claim it is not calumny?

Vixen is desperately trying to backtrack, because Vixen is becoming aware that Vixen is accusing specific lawyers of fraud without any evidence, when all the allegation amounts to is a claim that in some cases a US lawyer (in accordance with US law) accepted money to defend a client (in accordance with US law). Vixen seemingly claims that these legal activities are fraudulent.

In Italy, the Parliament acknowledges that there may be miscarriages of justice, and therefore the Italian Parliament has enacted legal procedures for revision trials and compensation to correct such miscarriages (CPP Articles 629 - 647).

I challenge Vixen to produce any citations of cases where a lawyer or lawyer's client was found guilty of "innocence fraud" in the US or, more relevantly, in Italy. Does Vixen believe that Rudy Guede and his lawyers committed "innocence fraud" when they requested a revision trial? Was that request illegal under Italian law, in Vixen's "learned" opinion?
 
If Tom Kington of the GUARDIAN is 'telling a malicious falsehood about Raffaele's father', why isn't Raff's father suing the GUARDIAN?

Perhaps, because 'truth' is a fair defence against libel.

Vixen still does not address the issue I raised. Vixen claims that Amanda had left her blood in the bathroom and washed off Meredith’s blood which would be damming slam dunk evidence. If the prosecution had solid evidence of this nature why did the prosecution have to resort to the massive suppression of evidence, using false documents, destroying evidence, lying in court and committing perjury and feeding false information to the media as detailed in the links below. In addition why did the prosecution have to resort to the smear tactic of lying to Amanda she had HIV and releasing a list of her sexual partners. Prosecutors with solid evidence and a slam dunk case don’t need to resort to these tactics.

http://www.amandaknoxcase.com/raffaeles-kitchen-knife/

http://www.amandaknoxcase.com/contamination-labwork-coverup/

http://www.amandaknoxcase.com/meredith-kercher-perjury-corruption/

http://www.amandaknoxcase.com/evidence-destroyed/

http://www.amandaknoxcase.com/milani-report/

http://www.amandaknoxcase.com/bra-clasp-contamination/

https://knoxsollecito.wordpress.com...old-about-amanda-knox-and-raffaele-sollecito/

With regards to the allegation of what Raffaele’s father had said in a phone conversation, I thought Vixen was implying that Raffaele’s lawyer had used political influence to make the Marcesca court annul the convictions of Amanda and Raffaele. Vixen was actually referring to an article in 2008 before the Massei trial. Raffaele’s book Honour Bound has a section on the allegations they had tried to use political influence. I will quote it here

“Even before we’d had time to look over the newly available documents, were we were fending off accusations that we’d tried to exploit our political connections to push for my freedom.
Some of the stories said we’d begged Sara’s highly placed friends in Rome to apply pressure to the Corte di Cassasione before our hearing in April, or to exploit Bongiorno’s prominent position. Other postulated, more wildly that my family had approached Mafia thugs in Bari and contracted them with to intimidate the Perugia police.

The source for all these stories we learned to our consternation were wiretaps the police had placed on my family’s phones since February. This was no small operation: in just a few months they intercepted close to forty thousand calls. Some of the phrases in the news stories were familiar enough; my family had let rip about the behaviour of the Perugia police and called them pigs, bastards and fili di puttana. And why not? They had every reason to be angry and had no idea that their conversations were being monitored.

But a lot of the other reporting was distorted or wrong, as though designed expressly to cast us in the worst possible light and to discredit ay progress we had made in challenging the evidence. Senator Nania went public immediately to deny he had interceded on our behalf with Guilia Bongiorno, conceding only that he had mentioned her name to Sara over the phone. Bogniorno herself pointed that she had not been hired by my family until after the Corte Di Cassazione issued it’s ruling. These news stories were exactly the kind of political damage Bongiorno had been afraid of, and she was quick to share her alarm with us. The thing that perturbed her most was a report in Corriere della Sera, the country’s most prestigious newspaper, in which my father was quoted saying “I want to get Guila Bongiorno on our said because she can wield political influence on the case”.

Papa said he was quite sure this was a fabrication, but Bongiorno was insistent: “I want to believe you, but you’d better be quite sure”.
So we asked to see the intercepts ourselves. They were available, but we had to pay six thousand eruos to have them transferred onto audio CDs. The authorities made nothing easy for us.
The transcripts vindicated us entirely”

It can be seen from the above the police had lied about what was said in the wire taps. If the wire taps had incriminating conversations the police would have used these tapes as evidence and played them out.
 
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Vixen still does not address the issue I raised. Vixen claims that Amanda had left her blood in the bathroom and washed off Meredith’s blood which would be damming slam dunk evidence. If the prosecution had solid evidence of this nature why did the prosecution have to resort to the massive suppression of evidence, using false documents, destroying evidence, lying in court and committing perjury and feeding false information to the media as detailed in the links below. In addition why did the prosecution have to resort to the smear tactic of lying to Amanda she had HIV and releasing a list of her sexual partners. Prosecutors with solid evidence and a slam dunk case don’t need to resort to these tactics.

http://www.amandaknoxcase.com/raffaeles-kitchen-knife/

http://www.amandaknoxcase.com/contamination-labwork-coverup/

http://www.amandaknoxcase.com/meredith-kercher-perjury-corruption/

http://www.amandaknoxcase.com/evidence-destroyed/

http://www.amandaknoxcase.com/milani-report/

http://www.amandaknoxcase.com/bra-clasp-contamination/

https://knoxsollecito.wordpress.com...old-about-amanda-knox-and-raffaele-sollecito/

With regards to the allegation of what Raffaele’s father had said in a phone conversation, I thought Vixen was implying that Raffaele’s lawyer had used political influence to make the Marcesca court annul the convictions of Amanda and Raffaele. Vixen was actually referring to an article in 2008 before the Massei trial. Raffaele’s book Honour Bound has a section on the allegations they had tried to use political influence. I will quote it here

“Even before we’d had time to look over the newly available documents, were we were fending off accusations that we’d tried to exploit our political connections to push for my freedom.
Some of the stories said we’d begged Sara’s highly placed friends in Rome to apply pressure to the Corte di Cassasione before our hearing in April, or to exploit Bongiorno’s prominent position. Other postulated, more wildly that my family had approached Mafia thugs in Bari and contracted them with to intimidate the Perugia police.

The source for all these stories we learned to our consternation were wiretaps the police had placed on my family’s phones since February. This was no small operation: in just a few months they intercepted close to forty thousand calls. Some of the phrases in the news stories were familiar enough; my family had let rip about the behaviour of the Perugia police and called them pigs, bastards and fili di puttana. And why not? They had every reason to be angry and had no idea that their conversations were being monitored.

But a lot of the other reporting was distorted or wrong, as though designed expressly to cast us in the worst possible light and to discredit ay progress we had made in challenging the evidence. Senator Nania went public immediately to deny he had interceded on our behalf with Guilia Bongiorno, conceding only that he had mentioned her name to Sara over the phone. Bogniorno herself pointed that she had not been hired by my family until after the Corte Di Cassazione issued it’s ruling. These news stories were exactly the kind of political damage Bongiorno had been afraid of, and she was quick to share her alarm with us. The thing that perturbed her most was a report in Corriere della Sera, the country’s most prestigious newspaper, in which my father was quoted saying “I want to get Guila Bongiorno on our said because she can wield political influence on the case”.

Papa said he was quite sure this was a fabrication, but Bongiorno was insistent: “I want to believe you, but you’d better be quite sure”. So we asked to see the intercepts ourselves. They were available, but we had to pay six thousand eruos to have them transferred onto audio CDs. The authorities made nothing easy for us. The transcripts vindicated us entirely

It can be seen from the above the police had lied about what was said in the wire taps. If the wire taps had incriminating conversations the police would have used these tapes as evidence and played them out.

Welshman, thanks for this reminder of the bad faith and slanderous publicity that the police and prosecution resorted to in this case.

The guilters continue to repeat these slanders because they have no credible evidence against Knox or Sollecito. Their alternative approach is to divert the discussion by slandering persons not even involved in the case.
 
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Herewith:



So you see it shall be a ground for discipline to violate its rules. 'Shall' is a rigid compulsion and does not leave any room for interpretation of it.

Stacyhs was bragging that Zellner and Scheck et al in the Innocence industry do it all pro bono. I merely expressed scepticism. I can see that many bar members will do pro bono work for poor, socially deprived prisoners who cannot afford counsel, as part of the ABA rules that they should aspire to do 50 hours per annum.

Let's not confuse this with attorneys making big bucks out of Innocence fraud. That is, guilty persons pretendng to be innocent. How can some of the more unscrupulous lawyers not know it is a fake, therefore we can conclude they are cynically playing the system.

That is my opinion. It is not a calumny.

No, I was stating a fact that the Innocence Project's services are pro-bono in response to your claim that

These attorneys are only going to take on cases where they can take a handsome chunk of any compensation on a contingency basis.

"Your use of "bragging" is yet another example of your habit of exaggerating, twisting or falsifying what is said.

No, you did not merely "express skepticism", you made a false statement which was disproved.

As for the rest of your post, Numbers has already countered that sufficiently.
 
No, I was stating a fact that the Innocence Project's services are pro-bono in response to your claim that

Vixen said:
These attorneys are only going to take on cases where they can take a handsome chunk of any compensation on a contingency basis.

"Your use of "bragging" is yet another example of your habit of exaggerating, twisting or falsifying what is said.

No, you did not merely "express skepticism", you made a false statement which was disproved.

As for the rest of your post, Numbers has already countered that sufficiently.

Vixen has said some fairly disgusting things about top-tier professionals, and then fallen back on, "I was only expressing skepticism" as some sort of excuse. In response to the Italian Judge Boninsegna stating it as a judicial fact that the kids had been exonerated, Vixen called Boninsegna "a lickspittle". Vixen has also accused people like Dr. Gill or Saul Kassim or John Douglas of expressing professional opinions about the pair's innocence, that they too were only in it for the money.

And on and on and on it goes.
 
It's interesting to note that Hellmann was met with such hostility and scorn by his fellow judges after his acquittal of AK and RS that he felt he had no choice but to retire. Yet Massei and Nencini met no such reaction after they convicted the two. In the end, Marasca/Bruno declared that the investigation was so inept and the forensic evidence so lacking that no one should have convicted them in the first place, thereby validating Hellmann's conclusion. The reason this is interesting to me is that this demonstrates the pervading guilt bias that the general judiciary held despite the lack of evidence beyond a reasonable doubt.

Now cue Vixen telling us this is because they general judiciary knew the two were guilty rather than any bias.
 
Vixen has said some fairly disgusting things about top-tier professionals, and then fallen back on, "I was only expressing skepticism" as some sort of excuse. In response to the Italian Judge Boninsegna stating it as a judicial fact that the kids had been exonerated, Vixen called Boninsegna "a lickspittle". Vixen has also accused people like Dr. Gill or Saul Kassim or John Douglas of expressing professional opinions about the pair's innocence, that they too were only in it for the money.

And on and on and on it goes.

Absolutely, nothing has changed except the world has moved on. Who really gives a damn what a single person says on ISF Bill? This batcrap insanity absolutely isn't influencing anyone. I grant you that the show is hilarious because it is illogical, silly and with no connection to the truth. There is nothing to support the idea that Gill, Boninsegna, Douglas, Kassim, Hellmann etc etc are corrupt. But we've been hearing this tune from the PGP now for years.

I don't have the patience to address the exact same nonsense for the 10,000 time. 5,000 was more then enough.
 
Have the two sides agreed on what happened at the cottage on the 1st yet?
 
Not exactly. BOTH "witnesses" admitted they lied about Ferguson.

" In 2012, both Erickson and Trump recanted their trial testimony in statements obtained by Zellner and her investigator. In the subsequent habeas corpus hearing, both Erickson and Trump admitted that they lied at Ferguson's trial." (wiki)

Not only did they admit (not "pressurized") that they had lied, but "Erickson claimed that prosecutor Kevin Crane pressured him into implicating Ferguson." "Trump claimed that Crane pressured him into testifying against Ferguson" "The other janitor, Shawna Ornt, who witnessed the two men fleeing the parking lot eventually testified under oath that she had told the prosecutor that the man she saw the night of the murder was not Ferguson. She claims Crane repeatedly tried to get her to implicate him and that he became threatening during his last conversation with her. Despite being the sole witness who reported that she could identify the men at the scene, Shawna Ornt was never asked in court if she could identify Ferguson." Hmmmm....a prosecutor pressuring witnesses to inculpate an innocent person. Who would've thought?

Ferguson's conviction was vacated not only because the witnesses recanted their stories, but exculpatory evidence was withheld from the defense.

"Other evidence that was withheld from the defense trial team was related to the time frame of the murder and Ferguson and Erickson's movements during the evening. Erickson testified at Ferguson's trial that: following the murder, he and Ferguson went back to the bar around 2:45am and were let into the bar by the same bouncer who had let them in the first time. He claimed on the stand that they left between 4 and 4:30 am.[8][18]
Kim Bennett, another bar patron who knew Ferguson and Erickson, testified that she saw Ferguson and Erickson leave the bar between 1:15*a.m. and 1:30 am. She was never called to testify at the trial and her statement was not disclosed to Ferguson's defense team. Mike Schook, the bouncer at the bar on the night of the murder, testified the bar closed at 1:30 am that evening, disproving Erickson's claims that they returned to the bar following the murders.[8][18]
Ferguson's conviction was vacated in November 2013 on the basis that the prosecution withheld evidence from the defense team. "

So, yes, I'd say Ferguson has pretty much been exonerated. Of course, you can argue the legal semantics of it, but when the prosecution does not refile charges, I'd say it's because they know their entire case was crapola.

Trump? Shurely shome mishtake...? ROFL.

I like the way people suddenly make weird confessions out of the blue when Zellner's around. No doubt she'll be beating a path to Charles Manson's deathbed to get him to confess to a few crimes some of her clients are convicted of (perhaps the Theresa Halbach one) so that when he pops his clogs, they can all be similarly 'exonerated'.

A sceptical person might scoff...


Note your own term, 'vacated'. It does NOT mean 'exonerated'.

Wow. Now you're implying that Zellner is somehow getting confessions using underhanded tactics. Maybe she's using the tactics that the Perugia police used?

You really just can't stand it when someone is exonerated or has a conviction overturned, can you? For someone who claims to want "justice", you have a clear bias that anyone ever convicted must be guilty. Anyone fighting to show a miscarriage of justice occurred is only in it for the money or fame is your view. And any expert supporting that fight must be a shill or have no professional ethics.

A curious person might ask what the psychology behind that could be...

Note, once again, that I never said Ferguson was exonerated. I said

So, yes, I'd say Ferguson has pretty much been exonerated. Of course, you can argue the legal semantics of it, but when the prosecution does not refile charges, I'd say it's because they know their entire case was crapola

I am expressing an opinion here, not stating a legal fact. But leave it to you to twist it otherwise.
 
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Welshman, thanks for this reminder of the bad faith and slanderous publicity that the police and prosecution resorted to in this case.

The guilters continue to repeat these slanders because they have no credible evidence against Knox or Sollecito. Their alternative approach is to divert the discussion by slandering persons not even involved in the case.

If as Vixen constantly claims there was solid evidence against Amanda and Raffaele, why did the police need to lie about what Raffaele's family had said in wire tapped conversations?
 
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