The Trials of Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito: Part 24

[Vixen]

Because house-mates have some concern for their fellows. Your lack of empathy is more that a little disturbing.

What? If Amanda was 'so concerned for her roommate' as she claims in her email home, why didn't she raise the alarm at 10:30 when she first went round there?

Amanda did not call the police once, but rang her Mom just before the door was battered down, for the first time since leaving Seattle.

It is obvious she and Raf knew that Mez lay dead behind the door.

In any case, of the three, only Amanda would know about locking the door and where the key was.

You have no idea what we are talking about, or you wouldn't keep assuming that Amanda was desperate to rescue Mez.

 

[Wilson85]

Massei wanted to know, why did Amanda claim she was worried that Mez lay behind the locked door hurt, when (a) nobody knew Mez was dead at that point (except the killers) and (b) Amanda reassured the cops it was normal for Mez' door to be locked, and (c) it was Filomena who arrived at 1:00-ish who IMMEDIATELY got Luca to break down the door.

Amanda didn't claim that she was worried Meredith lay dead behind the door. She was worried that may something had happen to Meredith as there was the front door open, blood stains in the bathroom, feces in the toilet, a broken window and Meredith didn't answer the phone.
The locked door alone didn't raise any concerns as there were other occasions where Meredith locked the door. With her little Italian Amanda just answered the question if it was normal for Meredith to lock the door - and she answered without any reference to the situation they found in the house.
I don't think that Filomena was concerned by the locked door either. It was the broken window, Meredith not answering the phone AND THAT HER TWO CELLPHONES WERE FOUND DROPPED IN A BACKYARD (an information A&R don't have before the arrival of postal police).

It all makes sense if you don't twist things and misinterpret any statements made:
Amanda leaves the house after she finds the front door open (door had a defect), the blood stains in the bathroom and the feces in the toilet.
She then ask Filomena and Rafaele for advise. She try to call Meredith but call to both phones is unanswered.
They go back to the house and find the broken window. At this point they are concerned something might happened to Meredith. They try to break down the door and call the police. They report the broken window, the blood stains, the locked door and that Meredith don't answer the phone.
When Filomena arrives she learns that Merediths phone were found and decides 'immediately' (IIRC she first checked if any valuables were stolen) to break down the door.

I don't get how someone can think A&R tried to delay the discovery of the body when it was them who informed the flatmates and called the police. They could have done their planned trip without informing anyone and delay the discovery for hours.

 

[Bill Williams]

What? If Amanda was 'so concerned for her roommate' as she claims in her email home, why didn't she raise the alarm at 10:30 when she first went round there?

She did.

If AK and RS had not raised the alarm, the victim would not have been found that day.

Is this yet another invention of yours, like when you invented a recollection by Battistelli? Please quit inventing things.

 

[TruthCalls]

Amanda didn't claim that she was worried Meredith lay dead behind the door. She was worried that may something had happen to Meredith as there was the front door open, blood stains in the bathroom, feces in the toilet, a broken window and Meredith didn't answer the phone.
The locked door alone didn't raise any concerns as there were other occasions where Meredith locked the door. With her little Italian Amanda just answered the question if it was normal for Meredith to lock the door - and she answered without any reference to the situation they found in the house.
I don't think that Filomena was concerned by the locked door either. It was the broken window, Meredith not answering the phone AND THAT HER TWO CELLPHONES WERE FOUND DROPPED IN A BACKYARD (an information A&R don't have before the arrival of postal police).

It all makes sense if you don't twist things and misinterpret any statements made:Amanda leaves the house after she finds the front door open (door had a defect), the blood stains in the bathroom and the feces in the toilet.
She then ask Filomena and Rafaele for advise. She try to call Meredith but call to both phones is unanswered.
They go back to the house and find the broken window. At this point they are concerned something might happened to Meredith. They try to break down the door and call the police. They report the broken window, the blood stains, the locked door and that Meredith don't answer the phone.
When Filomena arrives she learns that Merediths phone were found and decides 'immediately' (IIRC she first checked if any valuables were stolen) to break down the door.

I don't get how someone can think A&R tried to delay the discovery of the body when it was them who informed the flatmates and called the police. They could have done their planned trip without informing anyone and delay the discovery for hours.

You have laid out the sequence of events perfectly. It was an evolution of concern and ALL of the evidence bears this out. But in Vixen's world no matter what Amanda did it would have been indicative of guilt. At times Amanda was to slow in responding, indicative of trying to delay discovery. At other times she's to fast, indicative of knowing Meredith was dead. With Vixen it just doesn't matter, she will find a way to put a guilty spin on anything, even if it means making things up.

 

[TruthCalls]

Here is what Marasca wrote:

"Another element regarding her is represented by traces of mixed DNA, hers and the victim’s, in the "small bathroom", an eloquent confirmation that she had come into contact with the latter’s blood, which she tried to wash off (it seems we are dealing with washed away blood, while the biological traces belonging to her are a result of epithelial rubbing).The data leads to strong suspicion, although not decisive, considering the well-known considerations regarding the certain nature and attribution of the traces in question."

1. "mixed DNA" does not mean the mixed traces were left at the same time. That is a scientific fact.

2. Scientifically unproven. Once again, mixed DNA does NOT mean the two DNAs were left at the same time.

3. The source of Amanda's DNA was not determined. Inferring it was "epithelial cells" is not founded on scientific evidence.

4. Marasca is acknowledging that there are problems with assigning the mixed DNA to Amanda washing her hands of Meredith's blood for reasons 1-3.

Forensic experts have pointed them out for the last 9 years.

This is precisely why I've been asking Vixen to cite the evidence. The points you make are exactly why there is NO evidence Amanda washed Meredith's blood from her hands. The exact same results would be obtained if Guede rinsed blood from his hands and dripped some on a portion of the sink where Amanda had spit after brushing her teeth a day earlier.

Further, while Vixen continues to claim the Marasca court found this to be a legal fact - a definitive ruling - as we can see from the bold & underlined above, Marasca is saying there is strong suspicion but not decisive. So even on this point Vixen is lying.

 

[abaddon]

What? If Amanda was 'so concerned for her roommate' as she claims in her email home, why didn't she raise the alarm at 10:30 when she first went round there?

Amanda did not call the police once, but rang her Mom just before the door was battered down, for the first time since leaving Seattle.

It is obvious she and Raf knew that Mez lay dead behind the door.

In any case, of the three, only Amanda would know about locking the door and where the key was.

You have no idea what we are talking about, or you wouldn't keep assuming that Amanda was desperate to rescue Mez.

Clearly, you have never shared a house with others.

There is a fine diplomatic line to be walked between looking out for ones house-mates and interfering with ones house-mates.

That same line exists between friends, in the workplace, etc.

Being "concerned" is not a binary quantity. It's a spectrum. It runs from "hmm, that's odd" all the way up to "Fetch an axe" or "Nuke the site from orbit, it's the only way to be sure" and everywhere in between.

 

[abaddon]

Amanda didn't claim that she was worried Meredith lay dead behind the door. She was worried that may something had happen to Meredith as there was the front door open, blood stains in the bathroom, feces in the toilet, a broken window and Meredith didn't answer the phone.
The locked door alone didn't raise any concerns as there were other occasions where Meredith locked the door. With her little Italian Amanda just answered the question if it was normal for Meredith to lock the door - and she answered without any reference to the situation they found in the house.
I don't think that Filomena was concerned by the locked door either. It was the broken window, Meredith not answering the phone AND THAT HER TWO CELLPHONES WERE FOUND DROPPED IN A BACKYARD (an information A&R don't have before the arrival of postal police).

And there you have it, an escalating scale of concern.

Can't make phone contact? Sure, try again later.

Still can't make phone contact? Hmmm, that's odd. Perhaps I'll stroll over and see if there is some problem.

Door left open? Hmmm. Something amiss here.

Cautiously step inside. Bloodstains? WTF? A fall? some kind of domestic accident? (at this point most people's imagination goes into wild overdrive)

Door locked? WTF? maybe she is unconscious and needs assistance.

And so forth right up to full blown panic mode.

It's entirely a natural human thing. For inexplicable reasons, Vixen is proposing that instead it operates like an on/off light switch. In reality, it is more akin to a dimmer switch.

 

[Bill Williams]

It's entirely a natural human thing. For inexplicable reasons, Vixen is proposing that instead it operates like an on/off light switch. In reality, it is more akin to a dimmer switch.

Not inexplicable. It's what happens when one assumes from the beginning the conclusion they wish to arrive at. Vixen assumes AK and RS are guilty, and proceeds to examine the evidence from that premise.

It's what got this investigation quickly off the rails. Vixen is just a spokesperson.

 

[Vixen]

And there you have it, an escalating scale of concern.

Can't make phone contact? Sure, try again later.

Still can't make phone contact? Hmmm, that's odd. Perhaps I'll stroll over and see if there is some problem.

Door left open? Hmmm. Something amiss here.

Cautiously step inside. Bloodstains? WTF? A fall? some kind of domestic accident? (at this point most people's imagination goes into wild overdrive)

Door locked? WTF? maybe she is unconscious and needs assistance.

And so forth right up to full blown panic mode.

It's entirely a natural human thing. For inexplicable reasons, Vixen is proposing that instead it operates like an on/off light switch. In reality, it is more akin to a dimmer switch.

The postale police did not describe the kids as panicking, in their testimony. They did describe Filomena as acting with alacrity.

Also, if you are concerned your friend 'might be hurt behind that locked door' don't ring their phone for just 3 seconds, as we might be sceptical.

 

[Bill Williams]

The postale police did not describe the kids as panicking, in their testimony. They did describe Filomena as acting with alacrity.

Also, if you are concerned your friend 'might be hurt behind that locked door' don't ring their phone for just 3 seconds, as we might be sceptical.

You've already admitted to inventing thoughts or testimony the Postal Police were supposed to have had.

Is the above more invention on your part?

 

[Vixen]

Not inexplicable. It's what happens when one assumes from the beginning the conclusion they wish to arrive at. Vixen assumes AK and RS are guilty, and proceeds to examine the evidence from that premise.

It's what got this investigation quickly off the rails. Vixen is just a spokesperson.

Wrong. My null hypothesis was that they were innocent.

The sheer amount of evidence against them is indisputable and immense. I believe the courts rightfully and fairly convicted them.

From what I know of law, the supreme court acquittal was most irregular and the common consensus is, that it was purely political.

Marasca itself is scathing of the kids.

Florence court tears Raff's character to bits calling him a liar over and over again and making it very clear that 'the presence of the girl at the murder scene is a fact that is indisputable and certain'.

It gave Raff's compensation claim the bum's rush.

 

[Vixen]

You've already admitted to inventing thoughts or testimony the Postal Police were supposed to have had.

Is the above more invention on your part?

Strawman. I haven't invented anything. It is a given fact that Amanda reassured the police Mez' door was often locked. The pair let the police, housemates and friends trample all over the murder scene.

 

[Vixen]

Amanda didn't claim that she was worried Meredith lay dead behind the door. She was worried that may something had happen to Meredith as there was the front door open, blood stains in the bathroom, feces in the toilet, a broken window and Meredith didn't answer the phone.
The locked door alone didn't raise any concerns as there were other occasions where Meredith locked the door. With her little Italian Amanda just answered the question if it was normal for Meredith to lock the door - and she answered without any reference to the situation they found in the house.
I don't think that Filomena was concerned by the locked door either. It was the broken window, Meredith not answering the phone AND THAT HER TWO CELLPHONES WERE FOUND DROPPED IN A BACKYARD (an information A&R don't have before the arrival of postal police).

It all makes sense if you don't twist things and misinterpret any statements made:
Amanda leaves the house after she finds the front door open (door had a defect), the blood stains in the bathroom and the feces in the toilet. She then ask Filomena and Rafaele for advise. She try to call Meredith but call to both phones is unanswered. They go back to the house and find the broken window. At this point they are concerned something might happened to Meredith. They try to break down the door and call the police. They report the broken window, the blood stains, the locked door and that Meredith don't answer the phone.
When Filomena arrives she learns that Merediths phone were found and decides 'immediately' (IIRC she first checked if any valuables were stolen) to break down the door.

I don't get how someone can think A&R tried to delay the discovery of the body when it was them who informed the flatmates and called the police. They could have done their planned trip without informing anyone and delay the discovery for hours.

Then she should have immediately called the police.

 

[Vixen]

And there you have it, an escalating scale of concern.

Can't make phone contact? Sure, try again later.

Still can't make phone contact? Hmmm, that's odd. Perhaps I'll stroll over and see if there is some problem.

Door left open? Hmmm. Something amiss here.

Cautiously step inside. Bloodstains? WTF? A fall? some kind of domestic accident? (at this point most people's imagination goes into wild overdrive)

Door locked? WTF? maybe she is unconscious and needs assistance.

And so forth right up to full blown panic mode.

It's entirely a natural human thing. For inexplicable reasons, Vixen is proposing that instead it operates like an on/off light switch. In reality, it is more akin to a dimmer switch.

Why bang and shout Mez' name, unless Amanda was well aware she no longer had her phones with her (and she was charged with stealing them). If it is the case the kids knew Mez did not have a phone, and lay dead, then their claim they banged on the door and tried to climb on the balcony to look in the window is pure deceit.

If you thought your rooomate was 'unconscious and needs assistance', do break down the door and/or call an ambulance.

 

[Stacyhs]

Wrong. My null hypothesis was that they were innocent.

I don't believe that for a second. You've always believed they were guilty. Always. It's the only way you've ever looked at the evidence.

The sheer amount of evidence against them is indisputable and immense. I believe the courts rightfully and fairly convicted them.

LOL! Is that why so many forensic scientists have decimated the forensic "evidence" in the case? Is that why Hellmann found them innocent and the SC acquitted them?

From what I know of law, the supreme court acquittal was most irregular and the common consensus is, that it was purely political.

You're an accountant, not a lawyer. What you know of law is what you think you know.

Marasca itself is scathing of the kids.

Only if you think that "if", "alleged", and "hypothesized" are "just sentence fillers".

Florence court tears Raff's character to bits calling him a liar over and over again and making it very clear that 'the presence of the girl at the murder scene is a fact that is indisputable and certain'.

It gave Raff's compensation claim the bum's rush.

Such hyperbole! What the court actually said was that "he contributed by making 'contradictory or even frankly untrue' statements in the early stages of the investigation, which constituted “'intent or gross negligence' ”.

Let's see what happens with the appeal, shall we? None of them have gone your way so far.

 

[TruthCalls]

Strawman. I haven't invented anything. It is a given fact that Amanda reassured the police Mez' door was often locked. The pair let the police, housemates and friends trample all over the murder scene.

And to think you just said you don't invent things Since when was it the job of Amanda and Raffaele to secure the cottage? And it wasn't a murder scene until the door was broken in and then it was up to the police, who BTW, did in fact allow people to trample all over the murder scene.

 

[Stacyhs]

Strawman. I haven't invented anything. It is a given fact that Amanda reassured the police Mez' door was often locked. The pair let the police, housemates and friends trample all over the murder scene.

So you stand by your statements that "Battistelli reported she was calm and laid back" and that it took them "TWENTY MINUTES to walk the five minutes to the cottage" despite the facts that :
1)you could provide no testimony from Battistelli saying such and
2) the telephone calls prove that they were back at the cottage within 13 minutes on the outside?

No, it's not a "given fact that Amanda reassured the police Meredith's door was often locked. That is your opinion. What Amanda did was tell the police that Meredith sometimes locked her door.

Testimony:


"LG: How did you interpret the fact that Meredith's door was locked right then? Did it seem to you something normal or abnormal? Did it happen sometimes or very rarely?


AK: Well, it happened to me sometimes to find that her door was locked, for example if I called Meredith and she had just gotten out of the shower, and wanted to change her clothes, and I would get near the door, I would notice it was locked. But, then she was inside. She also locked it when she went to England. But the fact that it was locked then, I didn't know if she had gone to England, and if it was locked and she wasn't inside, for me that was strange and I didn't...

AK:

Yes, because I told them, look, the door is locked, and Filomena was going Mamma Mia, it's never locked, it's never locked, and I said no, it's not true that it's never locked, but it is strange."

Do you really think it's logical that, in a house that four girls shared and where males often visited (boyfriends, boys downstairs), that Meredith NEVER locked her door when getting dressed?

Who would be more likely to notice Meredith's locked door? Amanda who had the room right next to Meredith's or Filomena whose room was two doors down and never had to walk by Meredith's room since she used the bathroom in the opposite direction of Meredith's room?

 

[Bill Williams]

Strawman. I haven't invented anything. It is a given fact that Amanda reassured the police Mez' door was often locked. The pair let the police, housemates and friends trample all over the murder scene.

You forget that we can all read what you wrote upthread. You invented a comment, sentiment, testimony of Battistelli, then when confronted you admitted to doing it.

Your null hypothesis is to invent things, and periodically you admit to it.

 

[abaddon]

Why bang and shout Mez' name, unless Amanda was well aware she no longer had her phones with her (and she was charged with stealing them). If it is the case the kids knew Mez did not have a phone, and lay dead, then their claim they banged on the door and tried to climb on the balcony to look in the window is pure deceit.

If you thought your rooomate was 'unconscious and needs assistance', do break down the door and/or call an ambulance.

No, that is all kinds of wrong right there. Have you ever been home alone ever? Last November, I broke my ankle. I was sufficiently able to summon an ambulance. In said incident, had I cracked my head, my corpse would have been found a week or so later. Unless those who gave a crap sought to seek me out given my sudden absence. Indeed both family and friends did so. And I am grateful for it.

You are proposing a distopia. Because that is the only route remaining to you.

You oscillate between ice queen and emotional wreck as seems fitting to you.

Nobody here needs to figure that nonsense out, you need to figure that nonsense out.

 

[Matthew Best]

Then challenge it. Oh wait. It was challenged and the supreme court dismissed it and reiterated: 'Amanda was present at the murder scene during the murder.'

No need to challenge it. The whole world knows Knox was exonerated and is now living free in America. She's even making appearances in foreign countries and speaking as an exoneree. It looks like the facts are on my side.