Cont: Proof of Immortality, V for Very long discussion

Status
Not open for further replies.
But how is that personal identity defined? I identify myself as a father because I have two children. Twenty years ago, I thought my primary purpose on earth was to lie to women.

You may think of those as being part of your identity. But I'm talking about the concept of differentiating yourself from everyone else. Your mind has an idea that there is an "I" that is separate from your children, those women you lied to, the person who sold you that jug of milk, and everyone else.
 
You may think of those as being part of your identity. But I'm talking about the concept of differentiating yourself from everyone else. Your mind has an idea that there is an "I" that is separate from your children, those women you lied to, the person who sold you that jug of milk, and everyone else.

Indeed, but that "I" is still an ever changing process, not a static entity. And certainly not a separate entity!
 
This aspect doesn't exist under H. You acknowledged that earlier.
Dave,
- I did...
- The H we're now considering is that everything is physical -- and, I don't think that that H allows for anything to be not chemically reproducible (maybe, I should say not chemically reducible).
- But anyway, I think I should have been more specific. That's the aspect of "self" that you seem to accept -- but that H doesn't.
 
Dave,
- I did...
- The H we're now considering is that everything is physical -- and, I don't think that that H allows for anything to be not chemically reproducible (maybe, I should say not chemically reducible).
- But anyway, I think I should have been more specific. That's the aspect of "self" that you seem to accept -- but that H doesn't.

You're trying to put words in his mouth again. You seem to be admitting that your logic is indefensible and your tactics dishonest
 
Dave,
- I did...
- The H we're now considering is that everything is physical -- and, I don't think that that H allows for anything to be not chemically reproducible (maybe, I should say not chemically reducible).
- But anyway, I think I should have been more specific. That's the aspect of "self" that you seem to accept -- but that H doesn't.

I don't accept that it exists. I said I understand what the concept is.
 
The H we're now considering is that everything is physical -- and, I don't think that that H allows for anything to be not chemically reproducible (maybe, I should say not chemically reducible).

"Chemically reproducible" is your bugaboo. Look around the argument. When you're the only one using particular terminology, it's not the terminology your critics are bound to defend.

Straw man.

But anyway, I think I should have been more specific. That's the aspect of "self" that you seem to accept -- but that H doesn't.

No, he doesn't "accept" it. Nor does anyone else in this thread. Anyone else. Again, please try to spend the next five years of this debate coming up with something that goes beyond declaring in ignorance that your critics agree with you.
 
Dave,
- I did...
- The H we're now considering is that everything is physical -- and, I don't think that that H allows for anything to be not chemically reproducible (maybe, I should say not chemically reducible).
- But anyway, I think I should have been more specific. That's the aspect of "self" that you seem to accept -- but that H doesn't.

Jesus Christ Jabba if you're only going to talk to one person at least don't put words in their mouth.
 
- The H we're now considering is that everything is physical -- and, I don't think that that H allows for anything to be not chemically reproducible (maybe, I should say not chemically reducible)

Not everything is chemical. Running, for instance, is mechanical, and it's not an actual thing, either.
 
maybe, I should say not chemically reducible.

Maybe you should, because it tips your hand at what you're trying to do. As I wrote above, you're hoping to reduce H to a caricature of simplistic processes -- a "dumb" organism -- so that you can amplify what you see as a contrast between brute organic life and the supposed nobility of your "awareness." Your argument relies, if not quantitatively then at least qualitatively, on creating the impression that some "particular awareness" is a miracle that demands a transcendental explanation.

As I and many others have said, the sense of self -- just as any other thought -- is a product of a functioning brain. As such you can, in a simplistic sense, "reduce" it to electrochemical reactions in the brain in response to communicated stimulus. Science, under H, has absolutely no problem considering it that way, and notes that Beethoven's 9th Symphony, Mein Kampf, the Golden Gate Bridge, and the 9/11 hijackings all had roots in similar neurochemical processes. As much as you want to reduce all of that to mere high school test-tubery, it simply will not fit unless you ignore all that life under H really is. You demand that your noble spirit must have more noble origins than "chemistry," but that's only because you have a cartoonish notion of what life processes must be.

When I come home from work every night my dog jumps up and wags his tail. Knowledge learned elsewhere (encoded electrochemically as well as structurally in the brain) and experience acquired over repeated encounters (also similarly encoded) has taught me that means he's pleased to see me -- or rather, that results I favor follow behavior on my part that attributes that meaning in that way. The dog engages in behavior that it pleases me to interpret as affection, and if I respond as if it were affection, overall pleasant results arise. The photons reflecting from my dog pass through my lenses, cause photochemical changes in my retinas which translate into electrical impulses that combine in my brain with other impulses to energize and transform electrochemical pathways. The result of these energizations is a complex ballet of motor instructions (movement) and the release of chemicals that affect the reactions that are occurring. I subjectively experience these reactions as pleasure. But all that is "physical." No magic required.

For many generations we interpreted this phenomenon as necessarily magical because we collectively lacked the the knowledge of how such things could arise via processes with which we were familiar. As our knowledge grew, the magical explanation grew less and less necessary. As we became able to observe the processes at work, we realized that they could indeed arise out of the previously unimaginable complexity we were finally able to observe. We can model the behavior of complex pattern-recognizing, rule-making systems and see how they work. We can see such other complex patterns arise in organisms we know don't have souls, such as what happens when a crow skis down a snow-covered roof on a jar lid, solely for the pleasure of it. From this we were able to conclude that yes, the brain and nervous system alone are capable of producing the behavior we observe and the feelings we feel.

Your problem is that you are so emotionally attached to the notion of a soul that you are unable to ennoble any other concept. So you resort to ham-fisted attempts to "reduce" science and the processes of life it knows about to brutish caricatures of stimulus-response. The rest of us are able to recognize that nobility arises simply where it arises and that we can marvel at it even if it isn't magical or supernatural. I don't have to believe in some unevidenced mumbo-jumbo to fully enjoy the electrochemical processes that congregate in the form of petting my dog. Calling it "chemistry" doesn't make it any less noble or less valid. It's obvious that for some reason, H terrifies you. Fine, but you don't succeed at proving some alternative by calling H names.
 
Dave,
- I did...
- The H we're now considering is that everything is physical -- and, I don't think that that H allows for anything to be not chemically reproducible (maybe, I should say not chemically reducible).
- But anyway, I think I should have been more specific. That's the aspect of "self" that you seem to accept -- but that H doesn't.


Precisely. So, if H is true how many souls are there?
 
Last edited:
Dave,
- I did...
- The H we're now considering is that everything is physical -- and, I don't think that that H allows for anything to be not chemically reproducible (maybe, I should say not chemically reducible).
- But anyway, I think I should have been more specific. That's the aspect of "self" that you seem to accept -- but that H doesn't.

Bollocks. H allows for emergent properties.
 
Dave,
- I did...
- The H we're now considering is that everything is physical -- and, I don't think that that H allows for anything to be not chemically reproducible (maybe, I should say not chemically reducible).
- But anyway, I think I should have been more specific. That's the aspect of "self" that you seem to accept -- but that H doesn't.

I don't accept that it exists. I said I understand what the concept is.
Dave,
- It seems to me that you and reincarnationists are both referring to a real part of the human conception of self, and that you do accept that this part actually exists. You just don't think that it can return, or that it is physically reproducible.
- It then seems to me that if everything is in fact physical, everything should also be physically reducible, and therefor physically reproducible...
 
It seems to me that you and reincarnationists are both referring to a real part of the human conception of self

Misleading. Godless dave has made reference to the reincarnationists' arguments. He is not invoking them himself or attempting to incorporate them into his argument or yours.

...and that you do accept that this part actually exists.

Patently false. Godless dave has told you several times he does not accept the reincarnationists' hypothesis. Were this another poster whom you routinely ignore, this would not be as egregious as when you have repeatedly and deliberately misrepresented the only poster you answer. Look at the rest of the responses you received, Jabba. Do you really think you're fooling anyone by attempting to cram words in godless dave's mouth?

You just don't think that it can return, or that it is physically reproducible.

Misleading. What he said, and continues to say, is that no such concept appears in H. Therefore invoking it in your rationale for P(E|H) is an error.

It then seems to me that if everything is in fact physical, everything should also be physically reducible, and therefor physically reproducible...

Everything that contributes to the product of the sense of self under H is physically reproducible. This is so because the sense of self is a property of the physical organism under H. Reproduce the organism identically and it will exhibit identical properties. Under H the sense of self is not an entity, nor is it severable from the organism.
 
Dave,
- It seems to me that you and reincarnationists are both referring to a real part of the human conception of self, and that you do accept that this part actually exists. You just don't think that it can return, or that it is physically reproducible.

I have explicitly said on several occasions that it is, in theory, physically reproducible:

- But, you agree that my particular self-awareness is not reproduceable. How can we 'trace' it if we can't reproduce it? We have no idea what physicality brings about a particular self-awareness. Saying that a particular brain is the cause would seem to make it traceable only one step back...
I don't agree with that at all. To reproduce something is to make a copy of it.
 
Dave,
- It seems to me that you and reincarnationists are both referring to a real part of the human conception of self, and that you do accept that this part actually exists. You just don't think that it can return, or that it is physically reproducible.
- It then seems to me that if everything is in fact physical, everything should also be physically reducible, and therefor physically reproducible...


That part is called the brain.
 
Dave,
- It seems to me that you and reincarnationists are both referring to a real part of the human conception of self, and that you do accept that this part actually exists. You just don't think that it can return, or that it is physically reproducible.
- It then seems to me that if everything is in fact physical, everything should also be physically reducible, and therefor physically reproducible...
It is. Just go to your local "Build-A-Brain" store. You even get to pre-install the bias of your choice with matching plaid underwear. My kids despise such frippery, but what do kids know? Nothing.

Take the bear. Hug it...HUGGG IITT. You are grounded.

Perhaps, Jabba, you think I am being just a bit disingenuous or unkind.

Well, it has taken years of posts, years of attempts to get you to engage. You are now down to the level of flat out porkie pies.

How much respect do you think such behaviour has garnered for you?
 
Dave,
- I did...
- The H we're now considering is that everything is physical -- and, I don't think that that H allows for anything to be not chemically reproducible (maybe, I should say not chemically reducible).
- But anyway, I think I should have been more specific. That's the aspect of "self" that you seem to accept -- but that H doesn't.

I don't accept that it exists. I said I understand what the concept is.

Dave,
- It seems to me that you and reincarnationists are both referring to a real part of the human conception of self, and that you do accept that this part actually exists. You just don't think that it can return, or that it is physically reproducible.
- It then seems to me that if everything is in fact physical, everything should also be physically reducible, and therefor physically reproducible...

I have explicitly said on several occasions that it is, in theory, physically reproducible:
- The 'thing' that reincarnationists think returns is physically reproducible?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Back
Top Bottom