The Trials of Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito: Part 24

[Matthew Best]

Incidentally, I have never 'pranked' anybody in my life.

Except for about 7,822 times.

 

[TruthCalls]

It is a legal fact she was there at the murder scene, just as surely as your birth certificate is a legal fact.

You may or may not have been born on the date it says, and your parents may be faking your birth, but fact is, it is a legal fact, and you are stuck with its details, until such time you take it to a higher court, and good luck with that. All they can do is amend it, with the original details still showing.

Well, except there was a doctor and nurses who were there to witness my birth. There's delivery room records showing my mother was there delivering me. Records for medications used during the delivery as well as records documenting my entry into the nursery. All of this represents EVIDENCE that proves when and where I was born.

The claims you're so fond of repeating ad nauseam don't have any such evidence. A claim without evidence is nothing more than conjecture. It isn't fact. And that is exactly what these claims are - conjecture.

 

[Bill Williams]

Vixen, since you claim that the word "ipotesi" (correct spelling; first English translation is "hypothesis" according to Google translate and Collins reverso) is used as a figure of speech in the Marasca CSC panel motivation report, where it occurs 28 times, please explain its meaning for each occurrence.

Thanks in advance for you kind cooperation.

The M/B report also uses "ipotizzato" in relation to what the fact-finding court (in this case, the Nencini court) claimed about tensions between Amanda and Meredith (where no tensions of significance actually existed outside of this hypothesis)........

"l'ipotesi", in relation to the hypothesis that Guede had had cuts on his hands consistent with breaking glass to get in through Filomena's window......

"l'argomento" (hypothesis, or "the argument that") in relation to a proposed selective cleaning of the crime-room....

"ipotesi" in relation to Raffaele's lawyer's claims that Nencini did not bother to consider alternate causes to "facts" as claimed when Nencini developed his suspect-centric facts​

And on and on and on. What Vixen and Machiavelli are selectively claiming is that the word "ipotesi" only is used as a "figure of speech" when it destroy's their reasonings about what is said in Section 9.4.3.

Otherwise they'd also have to argue that M/B is stating it as a fact that Rudy broke in through Filomena's window - and on other issues less favourable to what they try to make the text say.

BTW - this is what one of the Italian speakers here did, see how the word was used in other parts of the document; including what other words were rendered into English as "alleged" or "hypothesis", as well as how other issues were treated when "ipotesi" was used. The upshot was that those who say something different than the obvious, plain text meaning of "ipotesi" as rendered into English, have an obvious agenda - esp. when they only apply their rationale to select, targeted passages.

If I said any more I'd be violating the rules of ISF.

 

[Wilson85]

In her email home, written during the early hours of the Saturday- Sunday morning of the days after the murder, Amanda claimed she was frantic and in a great panic, banging on Mez' door.

So how come the postale police Battistelli reported she was calm and laid back, and even tried to reassure them it was not unusual for the door to be locked.

So you admit Amanda was lying her head off in her email to everybody in her address book (even though police asked her to keep everything confidiential).

Battistelli reported no such thing. Why do you make up stuff?

Battistelli also got the time of their arrival wrong (proveen by CCTV / Call logs).

Battistelli also claimed he didn't enter Kerchers room after the door break. Luca Altieri claims he is sure Battistelli did enter the room. If we believe Battistelli everyone left the house after they discover a foot under the duvet - without checking if Kercher may was still alive .

Battistelli and Marsi couldn't remember if Knox mentioned the closed door at their arrival.

 

[Bill Williams]

So how come the postale police Battistelli reported she was calm and laid back, and even tried to reassure them it was not unusual for the door to be locked.

Battistelli also got the time of their arrival wrong (proveen by CCTV / Call logs).

Battistelli also claimed he didn't enter Kerchers room after the door break. Luca Altieri claims he is sure Battistelli did enter the room. If we believe Battistelli everyone left the house after they discover a foot under the duvet - without checking if Kercher may was still alive .

Battistelli and Marsi couldn't remember if Knox mentioned the closed door at their arrival.

Quite.

So why does Vixen feel the need to simply invent words and put them in Battistelli's mouth?

Or was Vixen's a typo? A figure of speech?

 

[Stacyhs]

In her email home, written during the early hours of the Saturday- Sunday morning of the days after the murder, Amanda claimed she was frantic and in a great panic, banging on Mez' door.

So how come the postale police Battistelli reported she was calm and laid back, and even tried to reassure them it was not unusual for the door to be locked.None of her housemates took that view. As soon as Filomena arrived, she got Luca to smash the door down.So no, not 'just a language problem'.

So you admit Amanda was lying her head off in her email to everybody in her address book (even though police asked her to keep everything confidiential).

I just looked for the word "calma" in Battistelli's testimony. It is used once, in no way related to Amanda. I looked at TMofMK's summary of his testimony. No where does it say he said Amanda was "calm and laid back", or anything like it.

If Amanda tried to "reassure them it was not unusual for the door to be locked" then why to Raffaele, in his 112 call to the police, specifically mention the locked door?"

"POLICE:What did they take?

RS:They didn't take anything, the problem is the closed door, there are bloodstains.

POLICE:There is a closed door. Which door's closed?

RS: The door] of one of the flatmates who isn't here and we don't know where she is."

Raffaele also had tried to break down the door before the police arrived. But you'll probably claim he is lying about that.

 

[Stacyhs]

Oh riiiight. The murder of Meredith Kercher was 'just a prank'. Okaaaaaay.


Incidentally, I have never 'pranked' anybody in my life.

I've seen you twist what people have said before, but this one takes top prize.

You've never pranked anyone? I'm not so sure. Sometimes I think you're pulling a massive prank on us here.

 

[Numbers]

The M/B report also uses "ipotizzato" in relation to what the fact-finding court (in this case, the Nencini court) claimed about tensions between Amanda and Meredith (where no tensions of significance actually existed outside of this hypothesis)........

....

On which page(s) do you find "ipotizzato"?

My search shows only pages 11 and 14.

 

[Bill Williams]

On which page(s) do you find "ipotizzato"?

My search shows only pages 11 and 14.

Page 5 (as "ipotizzato"), page 6 (as "ipotesi"), page 8 (as "ipotesi"), page 9 (as "ipotizzabili"), page 11 (as you found), page 12 (as "ipotizzate"), page 12 again (as "ipotesi"), page 14 (as you found), page 22 (as "ipotesi"), page 23 (as "ipotesi"), page 24 (as "ipotesi"), page 27 twice (as "ipotesi"), page 27 again (as"l'ipotesi"), twice on page 29 (as "nell'ipotesi"), and then twice again on page 29 (as "l'ipotesi"), page 31 (as "ipotizzare"), and then again on page 31 (as "ipotesi"), page 32 (as "dell'ipotesi"), page 32 again (as "ipotesi"), twice on page 36 (as "nell'ipotesi"), page 37 (as "ipotesi"), page 41 (as "ipotizzati"), page 41 again (as "l'ipotesi")..........

Then into Section 9 - page 44 (as "ipotesi"), and again on page 44 (as "all'ipotesi"), and one more on page 44 (as "l'ipotizzata"), page 45 (as "nell'ipotesi"), and again on page 45 (as "dell'ipotesi"), page 46 (as "l'ipotesi"), page 47 (as "l'ipotesi"), page 48 (as "l'ipotesi").......

Into Section 9.4.3 - page 50 (as "l'ipotesi")..... and then it's down hypothesizing because shortly in Section 10 it delivers it's reversal and absolution. None of these hypotheses add up to guilt. Not even the hypotheses that they'd been somewhere else in the cottage at the time of the murder, nor the one where Knox supposedly washed blood from her hands.

The different renderings of the word translate as: hypothesis, suggestions, assumptions, assuming, and conceivable. I suppose all of them are figures of speech.

In total, 34 renderings of dealing with some claimed "hypothesis" (either from the defence or the prosecution) in 50+ pages. I'd say Marasca/Bruno were dealing with the hypotheses of the lower-court, to show why that court should never have convicted.

In no way does M/B claim any of the hypotheses as their own.

 

[Methos]

No, we are not talking about social media someone in Washington reported the incident to the investigators at an early stage.

Oh yes, we are talking about social media, because that single comment on that "The Stranger" comments section is the source for the "Ski mask/rape prank" or whatever you want to call it. There is not even a hint about it in the case documents, so "somenoone in Washington reported the incident to the investigators at an early stage."

Amanda herself only mentioned it to preclude public astonishment when it came out, as it was bound to. She tried to make out 'it was just a prank'.

Amanda Knox only mentioned it as an anwer to a comment on her own site on January 7th, 2014 more than six years after the original comment, so the above makes no sense...

As for the story, Amanda was getting revenge in being dumped in favour of this girl, yes, that's gossip - not something that interests me, except within the context of the Kercher crime that hints of a person enraged with jealousy and resentment, given the ferocity of the attack.[...]

For someone claiming that "gossip" is "nothing that interests me", you are coming up with gossip quite often it seems. No matter, your reasoning doesn't make sense either way. The "ferocity of the attack" (whatever that means) doesn't necessarily point to a "person enraged with jealousy and resentment" (one alternative would be a burglar who just realised that the woman he intended to rape has recognised him...). Neither does it make the story of "Amanda was getting revenge in being dumped in favour of this girl" more credible. That's just another good example for circular reasoning.

As for the short story, it indisputably refers to the victim as having been 'pierced', a most peculiar verb to use, until one realises it is translated from Italian and actually means 'stabbed' (the story is about the victim being stabbed by several people - don't tell me, it's about a bunch of junkies all coming at the victim with their needles).

No, the short story does not "indisputably refer to the victim as having been 'pierced'". The sentence in question is:
"In quel momento non capii niente e soltanto quando fui fuori dalla casa ricordai che con te c’erano altre persone che fumavano, che si bucavano."

Do you speak Italian? Me neither, but I have friends who do. This is what my friend had to say about it:

"Si bucavano is colloquial for they injected themselves (with drugs)"
"It literally means they put holes in themselves. Which translates to taking drugs through injection."
"Well, anyone who translates "si bucavano" into anything related to stabbing, should be severely reprimanded!"

So itl looks like the story is not "about the victim being stabbed by several people" or "about a bunch of junkies all coming at the victim with their needles". It looks like "the victim" as you like to call her, was in the same smoke filled room with "bunch of junkies" who were "putting holes in themselves"...

 

[Numbers]

Page 5 (as "ipotizzato"), page 6 (as "ipotesi"), page 8 (as "ipotesi"), page 9 (as "ipotizzabili"), page 11 (as you found), page 12 (as "ipotizzate"), page 12 again (as "ipotesi"), page 14 (as you found), page 22 (as "ipotesi"), page 23 (as "ipotesi"), page 24 (as "ipotesi"), page 27 twice (as "ipotesi"), page 27 again (as"l'ipotesi"), twice on page 29 (as "nell'ipotesi"), and then twice again on page 29 (as "l'ipotesi"), page 31 (as "ipotizzare"), and then again on page 31 (as "ipotesi"), page 32 (as "dell'ipotesi"), page 32 again (as "ipotesi"), twice on page 36 (as "nell'ipotesi"), page 37 (as "ipotesi"), page 41 (as "ipotizzati"), page 41 again (as "l'ipotesi")..........

Then into Section 9 - page 44 (as "ipotesi"), and again on page 44 (as "all'ipotesi"), and one more on page 44 (as "l'ipotizzata"), page 45 (as "nell'ipotesi"), and again on page 45 (as "dell'ipotesi"), page 46 (as "l'ipotesi"), page 47 (as "l'ipotesi"), page 48 (as "l'ipotesi").......

Into Section 9.4.3 - page 50 (as "l'ipotesi")..... and then it's down hypothesizing because shortly in Section 10 it delivers it's reversal and absolution. None of these hypotheses add up to guilt. Not even the hypotheses that they'd been somewhere else in the cottage at the time of the murder, nor the one where Knox supposedly washed blood from her hands.

The different renderings of the word translate as: hypothesis, suggestions, assumptions, assuming, and conceivable. I suppose all of them are figures of speech.

In total, 34 renderings of dealing with some claimed "hypothesis" (either from the defence or the prosecution) in 50+ pages. I'd say Marasca/Bruno were dealing with the hypotheses of the lower-court, to show why that court should never have convicted.

In no way does M/B claim any of the hypotheses as their own.

Bill, thanks for your thorough search.

I'm sure that all these occurrences of "ipotesi", "ipotazzato", and their variants will be declared to be figures of speech by the PGP.

 

[Stacyhs]

Bill, thanks for your thorough search.

I'm sure that all these occurrences of "ipotesi", "ipotazzato", and their variants will be declared to be figures of speech by the PGP.

Or typos.

 

[Vixen]

I just looked for the word "calma" in Battistelli's testimony. It is used once, in no way related to Amanda. I looked at TMofMK's summary of his testimony. No where does it say he said Amanda was "calm and laid back", or anything like it.

If Amanda tried to "reassure them it was not unusual for the door to be locked" then why to Raffaele, in his 112 call to the police, specifically mention the locked door?"

"POLICE:What did they take?

RS:They didn't take anything, the problem is the closed door, there are bloodstains.

POLICE:There is a closed door. Which door's closed?

RS: The door] of one of the flatmates who isn't here and we don't know where she is."

Raffaele also had tried to break down the door before the police arrived. But you'll probably claim he is lying about that.

So how come he didn't urge the police when he rang up to come quickly, he was worried about a locked door and he believed Mez lay hurt behind it?

Massei writes;

Nevertheless, with regard to this specific aspect – the locked door and the decision to break it down – some - to say the least - contradictory elements had emerged: Amanda, as has already been reported, had stated that Meredith always locked the door to her room and therefore it was normal that it was locked; Raffaele Sollecito had tried to break down the door with a kick, thus putting in action behaviour which contradicted the normality of the locked door claimed by Amanda; strangely, however, he had not persisted in his effort to break down the door, which had suffered only a scratch, and notwithstanding that he had not been able to offer genuine resistance to a greater and effective determination – as is evidenced by the fact that Luca Altieri, a little later, had been able to force it with a kick and a blow from his shoulder – he had not tried again to force the door.

It's obvious he knew Mez was dead before Luca broke down the door. Some sceptics speculate he tried to break down the door because he realised they'd left Amanda's lamp on the floor. ;/

 

[Vixen]

Battistelli also got the time of their arrival wrong (proveen by CCTV / Call logs).

Battistelli also claimed he didn't enter Kerchers room after the door break. Luca Altieri claims he is sure Battistelli did enter the room. If we believe Battistelli everyone left the house after they discover a foot under the duvet - without checking if Kercher may was still alive .

Battistelli and Marsi couldn't remember if Knox mentioned the closed door at their arrival.

Whoever said it, said it.

Massei notes:

This last circumstance, downplayed by Amanda, who said that even when she went to the bathroom for a shower Meredith always locked the door to her room (see declarations of Marco Zaroli, page 180, hearing of February 6, 2009 and declarations of Luca Altieri, page 218, hearing of February 6, 2009), had alarmed Ms. Romanelli more.

 

[Vixen]

Oh yes, we are talking about social media, because that single comment on that "The Stranger" comments section is the source for the "Ski mask/rape prank" or whatever you want to call it. There is not even a hint about it in the case documents, so "somenoone in Washington reported the incident to the investigators at an early stage."


Amanda Knox only mentioned it as an anwer to a comment on her own site on January 7th, 2014 more than six years after the original comment, so the above makes no sense...


For someone claiming that "gossip" is "nothing that interests me", you are coming up with gossip quite often it seems. No matter, your reasoning doesn't make sense either way. The "ferocity of the attack" (whatever that means) doesn't necessarily point to a "person enraged with jealousy and resentment" (one alternative would be a burglar who just realised that the woman he intended to rape has recognised him...). Neither does it make the story of "Amanda was getting revenge in being dumped in favour of this girl" more credible. That's just another good example for circular reasoning.



No, the short story does not "indisputably refer to the victim as having been 'pierced'". The sentence in question is:
"In quel momento non capii niente e soltanto quando fui fuori dalla casa ricordai che con te c’erano altre persone che fumavano, che si bucavano."

Do you speak Italian? Me neither, but I have friends who do. This is what my friend had to say about it:

"Si bucavano is colloquial for they injected themselves (with drugs)"
"It literally means they put holes in themselves. Which translates to taking drugs through injection."
"Well, anyone who translates "si bucavano" into anything related to stabbing, should be severely reprimanded!"

So itl looks like the story is not "about the victim being stabbed by several people" or "about a bunch of junkies all coming at the victim with their needles". It looks like "the victim" as you like to call her, was in the same smoke filled room with "bunch of junkies" who were "putting holes in themselves"...

Whatever. Pranking is not a very nice thing to do when it damages other people's property or causes them distress 'for a laugh'. So much for acbytesla's claim 'Amanda was a nice person'.


So she goes to parties where people inject themselves. Lovely.

 

[Vixen]

Page 5 (as "ipotizzato"), page 6 (as "ipotesi"), page 8 (as "ipotesi"), page 9 (as "ipotizzabili"), page 11 (as you found), page 12 (as "ipotizzate"), page 12 again (as "ipotesi"), page 14 (as you found), page 22 (as "ipotesi"), page 23 (as "ipotesi"), page 24 (as "ipotesi"), page 27 twice (as "ipotesi"), page 27 again (as"l'ipotesi"), twice on page 29 (as "nell'ipotesi"), and then twice again on page 29 (as "l'ipotesi"), page 31 (as "ipotizzare"), and then again on page 31 (as "ipotesi"), page 32 (as "dell'ipotesi"), page 32 again (as "ipotesi"), twice on page 36 (as "nell'ipotesi"), page 37 (as "ipotesi"), page 41 (as "ipotizzati"), page 41 again (as "l'ipotesi")..........

Then into Section 9 - page 44 (as "ipotesi"), and again on page 44 (as "all'ipotesi"), and one more on page 44 (as "l'ipotizzata"), page 45 (as "nell'ipotesi"), and again on page 45 (as "dell'ipotesi"), page 46 (as "l'ipotesi"), page 47 (as "l'ipotesi"), page 48 (as "l'ipotesi").......

Into Section 9.4.3 - page 50 (as "l'ipotesi")..... and then it's down hypothesizing because shortly in Section 10 it delivers it's reversal and absolution. None of these hypotheses add up to guilt. Not even the hypotheses that they'd been somewhere else in the cottage at the time of the murder, nor the one where Knox supposedly washed blood from her hands.

The different renderings of the word translate as: hypothesis, suggestions, assumptions, assuming, and conceivable. I suppose all of them are figures of speech.

In total, 34 renderings of dealing with some claimed "hypothesis" (either from the defence or the prosecution) in 50+ pages. I'd say Marasca/Bruno were dealing with the hypotheses of the lower-court, to show why that court should never have convicted.

In no way does M/B claim any of the hypotheses as their own.

Judges do not hypothesise. They judge. They tell you how it is.

 

[Vixen]

Bill, thanks for your thorough search.

I'm sure that all these occurrences of "ipotesi", "ipotazzato", and their variants will be declared to be figures of speech by the PGP.

LOL. In the world of Numbers, the more a judge uses a word, the more it becomes true!

Just like Tweedledee and Tweedledum.

 

[Bill Williams]

Judges do not hypothesise. They judge. They tell you how it is.

Except when it is a typo, or a figure of speech.

 

[Vixen]

Quite.

So why does Vixen feel the need to simply invent words and put them in Battistelli's mouth?

Or was Vixen's a typo? A figure of speech?

OK, even if he didn't say it, on the other hand he doesn't report Amanda as being concerned. Yet he reports Filomena being immediately concerned.

 

[Bill Williams]

Quite.

So why does Vixen feel the need to simply invent words and put them in Battistelli's mouth?

Or was Vixen's a typo? A figure of speech?

OK, even if he didn't say it, on the other hand he doesn't report Amanda as being concerned. Yet he reports Filomena being immediately concerned.

So you admit you invented the whole thing.