The Trials of Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito: Part 24

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Vixen said:
It is true there are often signs in childhood. For example, Graham Young, the poisoner was cruel to animals. Fred West had sustained a head injury from a motor bike accident (head injury appears to be a surprisingly common feature), Mary Bell's prostitute mother hired her toddler daughter out to clients, Bell was foulmouthed and trashed her school before she was even ten. Rudy is no doubt damaged in a similar way, as were the Bulger killers, Venables and Thompson.

There are clues with Raff. He resented being sent to a school for the orphans of doctors after his mother divorced his dad, and later, died. He is said to have attacked a girl with scissors. Unfortunately, the school no longer had the records. His social media page was typical of a dissaffected youth, he bragged of drug taking. His dad had to keep him on a short leash and threatened to put him into rehab. He worshipped Marilyn Manson and the Monster of Foglio. Meeting a grunge rocker from Seattle seething with envy and resentment towards her roommate, was likely a tragic meeting of two depraved minds, who may have lived entirely normal lives had they not met each other. Amanda grew up rejected by her father, with Mom Edda having to take him to court for child maintenance. Amanda and Deanna were replaced by Ashley and Delaney. No doubt Curt thought Edda tricked him into fatherhood and was angry about being expected to pay child support.Seeing how popular Mez was and on a prestigious Erasmus scheme and with handsome ski-loving boyfriend, whilst she was stuck with dandified Raff the wimp, who preferred to study for his IT finals than party at Halloween, no doubt aroused her resentment.

Mez snubbing her no doubt triggered memories of being snubbed at school. Heck, she had come to Italy to get away from being the 'rejected one'. Even Johnsrud had gone as far away as possible to China.

When even Parick expressed a preference for Mez, with her cocktails shaking skills, when Patrick texted her not to come in and Mez had dumped her to go out with friends again, Amanda was ready to explode.

Although not a teenager, at 20 still immature enough to be able to glibly commit a horrendous act in the grip of a frenzied mist of jealous and vengeance, with wimpy boyfriend only too happy to join the fantasy of using his knives in hard core manga style. That'll teach his dad to keep shadowing him!
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We really need a face palm emoticon.

Yes, "it is said"...by PGP. Yet not one single person backed up the "scissors story" despite Volturno's investigation. You'd think with all the media coverage this story had that the "victim" or classmate, teacher witnesses would have come forward. But, nope. PGPs tried their best to twist the routine destruction of school records into a cover-up even though it was the normal procedure after 5 years had elapsed.

As for the rest of your post, it's about as much based in fact as Trump's claims he was wire-tapped by Pres. Obama. Accordingly, it doesn't deserve my time.
 
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Vixen said:
Bagels, we have been over this argument many many times and still you fondly clasp your debunked theory to your bosom.
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Lol Rudy's arrest record and the testimony from the victim of the break-in isn't a "theory" it's simply a matter of public record. I don't even have to be a human being to post it, I could just be a robot doing a document dump, verbatim. No human opinion enters into it.
 
Vixen said:
You claimed I was a liar for saying Prisoners Dilemma is predicated on Nash Equilibrium.

In support of your claim, you came out with a profanity and various personal attacks. Now you are claiming I am stupid, uneducated and have never read books.

Do you have any evidence of that?
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"DNA being a protein....."
 
Vixen said:
Sure the defence were paid to support the opposite view of 'Rudy the Lone Wolf'. Why do you think none of the courts were able to uphold this, despite Italy being a notoriously insular country with Africans like Rudy not welcome?

IT's because THE EVIDENCE did not and could not support this. In fact, it supported the opposite.
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What evidence, Vixen, WHAT EVIDENCE? You've been asked this a thousand times and you've never been able to answer it.

o List the evidence for multiple attackers.
o List the evidence Amanda washed Meredith's blood from her hands.

And while you're at it, why don't you...

o List the evidence that Amanda was at the cottage during the murder.

You'll never answer because you can't.

Vixen writes; "Sure the defence were paid to support the opposite view of 'Rudy the Lone Wolf'."

So let's see what the experts said, as noted in Massei's MR:

Dr. Lalli (Massei pg 116) wrote:
He excluded, finally, that the biological data alone could indicate the presence and action of several people against the victim.
Dr. Liviero, consultant appointed by the Public Minister (Massei pg 119) wrote:
As for the dynamic of the homicide, with particular reference to whether the action was performed by one or more persons, Dr. Liviero ruled out the existence of scientific elements that would allow us to formulate a response to this question.
Professor Bacci, consultant appointed by the Public Prosecutor (Massei pg 122) wrote:
He indicated that the biological data did not allow for a determination of whether the injuries were caused by one person or by several people, claiming they were compatible with both possibilities
Professor Norelli, consultant for the civil party, (Massei pg 127) wrote:
All this led to the conclusion that one single person could not have carried out all the harmful actions which had occurred in this case.
Professor Introna, consultant for Raffaele Sollecito (Massei pg 137) wrote:
He also stated that the action was that of a single attacker.
Professor Torre, consultant for Amanda Knox (Massei pg 145) wrote:
He maintained that " in any case there is nothing there which could lead me to think that there was more than one attacker"
Prof Cingolani, expert appointed by the judge (GIP) (Massei pg 153) wrote:
He was unable to provide an explanation for such a disproportion, which he held to be compatible with the presence of more than one person, but also with the action of a sole person who acts in a progressive manner

So are we to believe Dr. Lalli, Dr. Liviero and Professor Bacci, none of whom were called by the defense, were also paid?
 
TruthCalls said:
What evidence, Vixen, WHAT EVIDENCE? You've been asked this a thousand times and you've never been able to answer it.

o List the evidence for multiple attackers.
o List the evidence Amanda washed Meredith's blood from her hands.

And while you're at it, why don't you...

o List the evidence that Amanda was at the cottage during the murder.

You'll never answer because you can't.

Vixen writes; "Sure the defence were paid to support the opposite view of 'Rudy the Lone Wolf'."

So let's see what the experts said, as noted in Massei's MR:

Dr. Lalli (Massei pg 116) wrote:
He excluded, finally, that the biological data alone could indicate the presence and action of several people against the victim.
Dr. Liviero, consultant appointed by the Public Minister (Massei pg 119) wrote:
As for the dynamic of the homicide, with particular reference to whether the action was performed by one or more persons, Dr. Liviero ruled out the existence of scientific elements that would allow us to formulate a response to this question.
Professor Bacci, consultant appointed by the Public Prosecutor (Massei pg 122) wrote:
He indicated that the biological data did not allow for a determination of whether the injuries were caused by one person or by several people, claiming they were compatible with both possibilities
Professor Norelli, consultant for the civil party, (Massei pg 127) wrote:
All this led to the conclusion that one single person could not have carried out all the harmful actions which had occurred in this case.
Professor Introna, consultant for Raffaele Sollecito (Massei pg 137) wrote:
He also stated that the action was that of a single attacker.
Professor Torre, consultant for Amanda Knox (Massei pg 145) wrote:
He maintained that " in any case there is nothing there which could lead me to think that there was more than one attacker"
Prof Cingolani, expert appointed by the judge (GIP) (Massei pg 153) wrote:
He was unable to provide an explanation for such a disproportion, which he held to be compatible with the presence of more than one person, but also with the action of a sole person who acts in a progressive manner

So are we to believe Dr. Lalli, Dr. Liviero and Professor Bacci, none of whom were called by the defense, were also paid?
Click to expand...

Now STOP confusing Vixen with facts. It makes her head spin.
 
LondonJohn said:
In addition, Vixen fails to mention (and one can only speculate as to the reason why.....) that the ONLY reason that the Marasca SC panel and the court in Sollecito's compensation claim stated that it was a judicial fact that Knox was present in the cottage when Kercher was murdered is because they imported that judicial fact from a totally separate judgement: the (soon to be torn to shreds by the ECHR) conviction verdict for Knox's criminal slander charge.
Whether Vixen likes it or not, the only piece of "evidence" pointing to Knox being at the crime scene at the time of the murder is Knox's own two statements arising from that police interrogation on 5th/6th November 2007 - statements which the ECHR will rule were obtained via unlawful breaches of Knox's human rights on the part of the interrogators (the most egregious breaches being the denial of legal counsel or right of silence to someone who was clearly being considered a suspect, and the use of unlawful coercion/bullying/threats to elicit a "confession/accusation"). The police (and almost certainly also the PM) brought Knox into that interrogation room with the express intent of extracting from her a statement that she had met with Lumumba and had taken him to the cottage whereupon he had attacked and murdered Kercher while Knox stood by. They basically ordered Knox to make a statement to that effect; they told her that she'd be in huge trouble if she didn't do so, that things would be far better for her if she did do so, and that the probable reason why she repeatedly said she didn't remember any such thing happening was that she had suffered from traumatic amnesia (cue the unlawful intervention from "interpreter" Donnino......).
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There is another more subtle problem.

The statements that Knox made were ruled ineligible for use against her in the murder trial. But were allowed to be used in the callunia conviction. The conviction for callunia - the legal facts derived from this conviction - is then imported into the murder trial despite the case being based solely on ineligible evidence.
 
Vixen said:
It is true there are often signs in childhood. For example, Graham Young, the poisoner was cruel to animals. Fred West had sustained a head injury from a motor bike accident (head injury appears to be a surprisingly common feature), Mary Bell's prostitute mother hired her toddler daughter out to clients, Bell was foulmouthed and trashed her school before she was even ten. Rudy is no doubt damaged in a similar way, as were the Bulger killers, Venables and Thompson.

There are clues with Raff. He resented being sent to a school for the orphans of doctors after his mother divorced his dad, and later, died. He is said to have attacked a girl with scissors. Unfortunately, the school no longer had the records. His social media page was typical of a dissaffected youth, he bragged of drug taking. His dad had to keep him on a short leash and threatened to put him into rehab. He worshipped Marilyn Manson and the Monster of Foglio. Meeting a grunge rocker from Seattle seething with envy and resentment towards her roommate, was likely a tragic meeting of two depraved minds, who may have lived entirely normal lives had they not met each other.

Amanda grew up rejected by her father, with Mom Edda having to take him to court for child maintenance. Amanda and Deanna were replaced by Ashley and Delaney. No doubt Curt thought Edda tricked him into fatherhood and was angry about being expected to pay child support.

Seeing how popular Mez was and on a prestigious Erasmus scheme and with handsome ski-loving boyfriend, whilst she was stuck with dandified Raff the wimp, who preferred to study for his IT finals than party at Halloween, no doubt aroused her resentment.

Mez snubbing her no doubt triggered memories of being snubbed at school. Heck, she had come to Italy to get away from being the 'rejected one'. Even Johnsrud had gone as far away as possible to China.

When even Parick expressed a preference for Mez, with her cocktails shaking skills, when Patrick texted her not to come in and Mez had dumped her to go out with friends again, Amanda was ready to explode.

Although not a teenager, at 20 still immature enough to be able to glibly commit a horrendous act in the grip of a frenzied mist of jealous and vengeance, with wimpy boyfriend only too happy to join the fantasy of using his knives in hard core manga style. That'll teach his dad to keep shadowing him!
Click to expand...

Do you have any idea what a grunge rocker is? Clearly Knox was not a grunge rocker, just look at the make up! The hair style! Knox was so not into grunge.
 
TruthCalls said:
What evidence, Vixen, WHAT EVIDENCE? You've been asked this a thousand times and you've never been able to answer it.

o List the evidence for multiple attackers.
o List the evidence Amanda washed Meredith's blood from her hands.

And while you're at it, why don't you...

o List the evidence that Amanda was at the cottage during the murder.

You'll never answer because you can't.

Vixen writes; "Sure the defence were paid to support the opposite view of 'Rudy the Lone Wolf'."

So let's see what the experts said, as noted in Massei's MR:

Dr. Lalli (Massei pg 116) wrote:
He excluded, finally, that the biological data alone could indicate the presence and action of several people against the victim.
Dr. Liviero, consultant appointed by the Public Minister (Massei pg 119) wrote:
As for the dynamic of the homicide, with particular reference to whether the action was performed by one or more persons, Dr. Liviero ruled out the existence of scientific elements that would allow us to formulate a response to this question.
Professor Bacci, consultant appointed by the Public Prosecutor (Massei pg 122) wrote:
He indicated that the biological data did not allow for a determination of whether the injuries were caused by one person or by several people, claiming they were compatible with both possibilities
Professor Norelli, consultant for the civil party, (Massei pg 127) wrote:
All this led to the conclusion that one single person could not have carried out all the harmful actions which had occurred in this case.
Professor Introna, consultant for Raffaele Sollecito (Massei pg 137) wrote:
He also stated that the action was that of a single attacker.
Professor Torre, consultant for Amanda Knox (Massei pg 145) wrote:
He maintained that " in any case there is nothing there which could lead me to think that there was more than one attacker"
Prof Cingolani, expert appointed by the judge (GIP) (Massei pg 153) wrote:
He was unable to provide an explanation for such a disproportion, which he held to be compatible with the presence of more than one person, but also with the action of a sole person who acts in a progressive manner

So are we to believe Dr. Lalli, Dr. Liviero and Professor Bacci, none of whom were called by the defense, were also paid?
Click to expand...

That's the judges' job and that what they did: they judged the evidence was, there were multiple attackers/accomplices.
 
bagels said:
Lol Rudy's arrest record and the testimony from the victim of the break-in isn't a "theory" it's simply a matter of public record. I don't even have to be a human being to post it, I could just be a robot doing a document dump, verbatim. No human opinion enters into it.
Click to expand...

As of the time of the murder he had no arrest record, unlike Amanda and Raff.
 
Planigale said:
There is another more subtle problem.

The statements that Knox made were ruled ineligible for use against her in the murder trial. But were allowed to be used in the callunia conviction. The conviction for callunia - the legal facts derived from this conviction - is then imported into the murder trial despite the case being based solely on ineligible evidence.
Click to expand...

This reminds me of the Stephen Avery supporters. They are furious because police got Dassey to be truthful about his involvement. He was there, he did it.

A perp tells the truth: must be police coercion. Shouldn't be allowed!
 
Planigale said:
Do you have any idea what a grunge rocker is? Clearly Knox was not a grunge rocker, just look at the make up! The hair style! Knox was so not into grunge.
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Really? So who was playing Nirvana at 5:30 am Come as you are?

'And I swear that I don't have a gun'.

Hellmann thought it was a little light music.
 
Vixen said:
Really? So who was playing Nirvana at 5:30 am Come as you are?

'And I swear that I don't have a gun'.

Hellmann thought it was a little light music.
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Vixen,
Have you informed the Italian Supreme Court via telegram that Amanda Knox listened to Nirvana? Perhaps they missed this important piece of evidence.
 
It also appears I have been informed via yellow card and post x-fer that we we are no longer allowed to make fun of people's arguments, even if we are not attacking the arguer. Also, we are no longer allowed to make fun of large groups of people (well, at least some groups of people. I am guessing we can still attack other groups that are not in favor at the time.).

Just wanted to inform everyone of the rule change. I suspect Vixen's posts where she attacks the large group of PIP and insults people's arguments to circumvent rules 0 and 12 will remain unchanged.
 
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Vixen said:
That's the judges' job and that what they did: they judged the evidence was, there were multiple attackers/accomplices.
Click to expand...

Oh, but I thought you were so well versed on this case and understood all of the evidence. So what you are confirming here is that despite your extensive knowledge of case evidence you can't cite any evidence to support any of these conclusions. Further, we see that despite not being aware of any evidence to support them, you are willing to accept them strictly on a blind faith of the judges getting things right.

Interestingly, however, we also see how you quickly abandon this faith in the judges when they issue rulings you disagree with and how you will doggedly argue against them. No presumption of the judge getting it right. I see this as just another manifestation of your confirmation bias.

BTW, you never did say whether those witnesses for the prosecution were paid by the defense for not endorsing the lone attacker theory. Funny that.
 
Vixen said:
As of the time of the murder he had no arrest record, unlike Amanda and Raff.
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Nope, although he had broken into the school twice, and on the second break-in he was caught with items from a lawyer's office which had been broken into a week prior - but yeah, he was a clean and honest guy. You just go on and keep waving those Guede pom pom's. It really shows what you're all about.

Oh, but before you start waving those pom pom's... perhaps you could cite some evidence of either Amanda or Raffaele having an arrest record at the time?
 
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