The Trials of Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito: Part 24

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Comparisons are odious, but Rudy was also well-liked and had lots of friends.
Yet you have no problems claiming he is the sole murderer/rapist, despite ALL of the courts (save Hellmann) having ruled as a legal fact, after looking at all of the evidence and hearing all of the testimony including professors, scientists and pathologists, that Rudy could not have acted alone.
None of them have any particular sympathy for 'the Ivorian', so you can't claim it's because Rudy had good counsel.

Accept it: it is established there were mulitiple attackers. Rudy was one. Marasca, Nencini, Micheli, Martuscelli, Masi have all said 'Amanda was indisputably at the murder scene and did wash off Mez' blood.'Face the facts.

Rudy was widely reported as being a liar even by his own foster family. He'd tell women he was American. He lied to a friend, Victor Oleinikov, telling him his father was a computer programmer and who supported him. He would not, or could not, hold down a job.

Rudy was reported by his friends as having extremely odd behavior such as a sleeping disorder where he'd get up and act like he was teaching a class or getting on all fours and barking like a dog. He wouldn't remember these incidents in the morning. This could be simple sleepwalking or something more serious like a dissociative disorder.

All but ONE expert testified in court that Meredith could have been killed by one person. Do you think we don't know this little fact you left out?

Exactly what scientific or witness account supports that Amanda washed her hands of Meredith's blood? That is pure conjecture by the court. NO scientific evidence supports it.
 
Yes. Let's have a look, shall we, at Brenda Spencer, the school-age girl responsible for the infamous "I don't like Mondays" (NB: not "Monday") shootings. And then we can perhaps compare and contrast with the known history of Knox and/or Sollecito prior to the date of the Kercher murder (my bolding for emphasis):


Brenda Spencer (born April 3, 1962) lived in the San Carlos neighborhood of San Diego, California, in a house across the street from Grover Cleveland Elementary School, San Diego Unified School District. Aged 16, she was 5'2" (157 cm) and had bright red hair. She is said to have self-identified as "having been gay from birth." After her parents separated, she lived with her father, Wallace Spencer, in virtual poverty; they slept on a single mattress on the living room floor, with empty alcohol bottles throughout the house.

Acquaintances said Spencer expressed hostility toward policemen, had talked about shooting one, and had talked of doing something big to get on TV. Although Spencer showed exceptional ability in photography, winning first prize in a Humane Society competition, she was generally uninterested in school; one teacher recalled frequently inquiring if she was awake in class. Later, during tests while she was in custody, it was discovered Spencer had an injury to the temporal lobe of her brain. It was attributed to an accident on her bicycle.

In early 1978, staff at a facility for problem pupils, to which Spencer had been referred for truancy, informed her parents that she was suicidal. That summer, Spencer, who was known to hunt birds in the neighborhood, was arrested for shooting out the windows of Cleveland Elementary with a BB gun, and burglary. In December, a psychiatric evaluation arranged by her probation officer recommended Spencer be admitted to a mental hospital for depression, but her father refused to give permission. For Christmas 1978, he gave her a Ruger 10/22 semi-automatic .22 caliber rifle with a telescopic sight and 500 rounds of ammunition. Spencer later said, "I asked for a radio and he bought me a gun." When asked why he might have done that, she answered, "I felt like he wanted me to kill myself."


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cleveland_Elementary_School_shooting_(San_Diego)


I think it's clear as day to any (reasonable, rational) person that the evidence of Brenda Spencer's upbringing and mental health state prior to her murder spree is....oooh......fairly close to 100% different to that of either Knox or Sollecito. Furthermore, Spencer exhibited the classic escalation of mental health issues, hatred for authority figures, and lead-up crimes of a more minor but highly relevant nature (in her case, burglary and shooting out of the windows of her school). All of this such escalation is a near-ubiquitous pattern for anyone who gets to the point of committing psychologically-motivated serious crimes such as murder (i.e. murder committed "for the fun of it", rather than, say, in the commission of another offence, or as a hot-blooded act*).

Simply put: had Knox and Sollecito truly constructed a plan that night to go over to the cottage and commit some nasty criminal act of violence/degradation upon Kercher - whether or not the original intention was murder itself - then there would have been clear evidence of these sorts of mental health issues and the classic escalation of violence and hatred within at least one of the two (and in fact almost certainly within both of them, given that they'd only even known each other for just over a week, and thus were nowhere remotely near building the required levels of mutual trust or dominant control....). There's absolutely no evidence that remotely matches the prior history of, say, an individual such as Brenda Spencer - and this in itself constitutes extremely strong evidence that neither Knox nor Sollecito ever carried out such a "thrill kill" attack.


* Note please (since I am confident that many pro-guilt commentators might be either too ignorant or too biassed to understand this nuance) that I'm talking about the requisite evidence of prior history for someone embarking on a "thrill kill" type of murder(s). Therefore, these rules do not explicitly apply to Guede as sole attacker/killer, since I think hardly anyone (least of all me) believes that Guede set out that evening with the aim of senselessly killing Kercher. Rather, Guede set out with the aim of burgling (US: burglarizing) the cottage, but was then unexpectedly interrupted by Kercher's return, and a confrontation ensued. It's my belief that Guede (as evidenced by his frequent rejection by women and his known harassment of women) then started to be overcome with a potent combination of fear and sexual lust..... and this resulted in his instigation of a sexual assault upon Kercher which evolved further into the stabbing (probably, IMO, when Kercher began to struggle as Guede started to carry out his sexual assault in earnest). And if that's anywhere near what really happened, then it's a completely different dynamic of crime, and there's no requirement for the types of extreme prior indicators that would be in place for someone deliberately setting out on a senseless "thrill kill" (though it's very likely that someone committing such a crime a) would have carried out more than one prior burglary, and b) would have tried and failed to carry out prior low-level physical/sexual assaults of women. Hmmmmmmmmm.........

So far Vixen's all 4 criminal comparisons ( Arias, Spencer and Leopold and Loeb) showed signs of trouble leading up to the murders they were involved in. Neither Amanda or Raffaele did. None of the courts believe it was a premeditated murder. Massei was quite complimentary of both Knox and Sollecito. Yet Vixen based not on any evidence but instead just a wild imagination believe it was premeditated because Amanda wasn't invited by Meredith to join her.
 
You claimed I was a liar for saying Prisoners Dilemma is predicated on Nash Equilibrium.

In support of your claim, you came out with a profanity and various personal attacks. Now you are claiming I am stupid, uneducated and have never read books.

Do you have any evidence of that?

Seriously?????
 
Now, you're playing fast and loose with the facts. The experts (not judges)that testified all but one said that the crime scene did not indicate there had to be more then one attacker. Also, there is no evidence pointing to anyone else being involved. You face it. Rudy was the only one convicted of this crime because he did it alone. Wake up, it's over Rudy and Rudy alone is guilty.


In addition, Vixen fails to mention (and one can only speculate as to the reason why.....) that the ONLY reason that the Marasca SC panel and the court in Sollecito's compensation claim stated that it was a judicial fact that Knox was present in the cottage when Kercher was murdered is because they imported that judicial fact from a totally separate judgement: the (soon to be torn to shreds by the ECHR) conviction verdict for Knox's criminal slander charge.

Whether Vixen likes it or not, the only piece of "evidence" pointing to Knox being at the crime scene at the time of the murder is Knox's own two statements arising from that police interrogation on 5th/6th November 2007 - statements which the ECHR will rule were obtained via unlawful breaches of Knox's human rights on the part of the interrogators (the most egregious breaches being the denial of legal counsel or right of silence to someone who was clearly being considered a suspect, and the use of unlawful coercion/bullying/threats to elicit a "confession/accusation"). The police (and almost certainly also the PM) brought Knox into that interrogation room with the express intent of extracting from her a statement that she had met with Lumumba and had taken him to the cottage whereupon he had attacked and murdered Kercher while Knox stood by. They basically ordered Knox to make a statement to that effect; they told her that she'd be in huge trouble if she didn't do so, that things would be far better for her if she did do so, and that the probable reason why she repeatedly said she didn't remember any such thing happening was that she had suffered from traumatic amnesia (cue the unlawful intervention from "interpreter" Donnino......).
 
Amanda wrote graphic short stories about rape and murder before she even arrived in Italy.

So? Does this mean that writer Tom Topor and director Jonathan Kaplan should be suspected of murder because the were involved in the film, "The Accused"?
 
So? Does this mean that writer Tom Topor and director Jonathan Kaplan should be suspected of murder because the were involved in the film, "The Accused"?


Frankly, I think the writers of Evil Dead, Friday 13th and Nightmare on Elm Street should all be pre-emptively locked away for life: it's clearly only a matter of time before they all commit the most unspeakably heinous crimes of violence.........
 
Yes. Let's have a look, shall we, at Brenda Spencer, the school-age girl responsible for the infamous "I don't like Mondays" (NB: not "Monday") shootings. And then we can perhaps compare and contrast with the known history of Knox and/or Sollecito prior to the date of the Kercher murder (my bolding for emphasis):


Brenda Spencer (born April 3, 1962) lived in the San Carlos neighborhood of San Diego, California, in a house across the street from Grover Cleveland Elementary School, San Diego Unified School District. Aged 16, she was 5'2" (157 cm) and had bright red hair. She is said to have self-identified as "having been gay from birth." After her parents separated, she lived with her father, Wallace Spencer, in virtual poverty; they slept on a single mattress on the living room floor, with empty alcohol bottles throughout the house.

Acquaintances said Spencer expressed hostility toward policemen, had talked about shooting one, and had talked of doing something big to get on TV. Although Spencer showed exceptional ability in photography, winning first prize in a Humane Society competition, she was generally uninterested in school; one teacher recalled frequently inquiring if she was awake in class. Later, during tests while she was in custody, it was discovered Spencer had an injury to the temporal lobe of her brain. It was attributed to an accident on her bicycle.

In early 1978, staff at a facility for problem pupils, to which Spencer had been referred for truancy, informed her parents that she was suicidal. That summer, Spencer, who was known to hunt birds in the neighborhood, was arrested for shooting out the windows of Cleveland Elementary with a BB gun, and burglary. In December, a psychiatric evaluation arranged by her probation officer recommended Spencer be admitted to a mental hospital for depression, but her father refused to give permission. For Christmas 1978, he gave her a Ruger 10/22 semi-automatic .22 caliber rifle with a telescopic sight and 500 rounds of ammunition. Spencer later said, "I asked for a radio and he bought me a gun." When asked why he might have done that, she answered, "I felt like he wanted me to kill myself."


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cleveland_Elementary_School_shooting_(San_Diego)


I think it's clear as day to any (reasonable, rational) person that the evidence of Brenda Spencer's upbringing and mental health state prior to her murder spree is....oooh......fairly close to 100% different to that of either Knox or Sollecito. Furthermore, Spencer exhibited the classic escalation of mental health issues, hatred for authority figures, and lead-up crimes of a more minor but highly relevant nature (in her case, burglary and shooting out of the windows of her school). All of this such escalation is a near-ubiquitous pattern for anyone who gets to the point of committing psychologically-motivated serious crimes such as murder (i.e. murder committed "for the fun of it", rather than, say, in the commission of another offence, or as a hot-blooded act*).

Simply put: had Knox and Sollecito truly constructed a plan that night to go over to the cottage and commit some nasty criminal act of violence/degradation upon Kercher - whether or not the original intention was murder itself - then there would have been clear evidence of these sorts of mental health issues and the classic escalation of violence and hatred within at least one of the two (and in fact almost certainly within both of them, given that they'd only even known each other for just over a week, and thus were nowhere remotely near building the required levels of mutual trust or dominant control....). There's absolutely no evidence that remotely matches the prior history of, say, an individual such as Brenda Spencer - and this in itself constitutes extremely strong evidence that neither Knox nor Sollecito ever carried out such a "thrill kill" attack.


* Note please (since I am confident that many pro-guilt commentators might be either too ignorant or too biassed to understand this nuance) that I'm talking about the requisite evidence of prior history for someone embarking on a "thrill kill" type of murder(s). Therefore, these rules do not explicitly apply to Guede as sole attacker/killer, since I think hardly anyone (least of all me) believes that Guede set out that evening with the aim of senselessly killing Kercher. Rather, Guede set out with the aim of burgling (US: burglarizing) the cottage, but was then unexpectedly interrupted by Kercher's return, and a confrontation ensued. It's my belief that Guede (as evidenced by his frequent rejection by women and his known harassment of women) then started to be overcome with a potent combination of fear and sexual lust..... and this resulted in his instigation of a sexual assault upon Kercher which evolved further into the stabbing (probably, IMO, when Kercher began to struggle as Guede started to carry out his sexual assault in earnest). And if that's anywhere near what really happened, then it's a completely different dynamic of crime, and there's no requirement for the types of extreme prior indicators that would be in place for someone deliberately setting out on a senseless "thrill kill" (though it's very likely that someone committing such a crime a) would have carried out more than one prior burglary, and b) would have tried and failed to carry out prior low-level physical/sexual assaults of women. Hmmmmmmmmm.........


It is true there are often signs in childhood. For example, Graham Young, the poisoner was cruel to animals. Fred West had sustained a head injury from a motor bike accident (head injury appears to be a surprisingly common feature), Mary Bell's prostitute mother hired her toddler daughter out to clients, Bell was foulmouthed and trashed her school before she was even ten. Rudy is no doubt damaged in a similar way, as were the Bulger killers, Venables and Thompson.

There are clues with Raff. He resented being sent to a school for the orphans of doctors after his mother divorced his dad, and later, died. He is said to have attacked a girl with scissors. Unfortunately, the school no longer had the records. His social media page was typical of a dissaffected youth, he bragged of drug taking. His dad had to keep him on a short leash and threatened to put him into rehab. He worshipped Marilyn Manson and the Monster of Foglio. Meeting a grunge rocker from Seattle seething with envy and resentment towards her roommate, was likely a tragic meeting of two depraved minds, who may have lived entirely normal lives had they not met each other.

Amanda grew up rejected by her father, with Mom Edda having to take him to court for child maintenance. Amanda and Deanna were replaced by Ashley and Delaney. No doubt Curt thought Edda tricked him into fatherhood and was angry about being expected to pay child support.

Seeing how popular Mez was and on a prestigious Erasmus scheme and with handsome ski-loving boyfriend, whilst she was stuck with dandified Raff the wimp, who preferred to study for his IT finals than party at Halloween, no doubt aroused her resentment.

Mez snubbing her no doubt triggered memories of being snubbed at school. Heck, she had come to Italy to get away from being the 'rejected one'. Even Johnsrud had gone as far away as possible to China.

When even Parick expressed a preference for Mez, with her cocktails shaking skills, when Patrick texted her not to come in and Mez had dumped her to go out with friends again, Amanda was ready to explode.

Although not a teenager, at 20 still immature enough to be able to glibly commit a horrendous act in the grip of a frenzied mist of jealous and vengeance, with wimpy boyfriend only too happy to join the fantasy of using his knives in hard core manga style. That'll teach his dad to keep shadowing him!
 
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Rudy was widely reported as being a liar even by his own foster family. He'd tell women he was American. He lied to a friend, Victor Oleinikov, telling him his father was a computer programmer and who supported him. He would not, or could not, hold down a job.

Rudy was reported by his friends as having extremely odd behavior such as a sleeping disorder where he'd get up and act like he was teaching a class or getting on all fours and barking like a dog. He wouldn't remember these incidents in the morning. This could be simple sleepwalking or something more serious like a dissociative disorder.

All but ONE expert testified in court that Meredith could have been killed by one person. Do you think we don't know this little fact you left out?

Exactly what scientific or witness account supports that Amanda washed her hands of Meredith's blood? That is pure conjecture by the court. NO scientific evidence supports it.


Sure the defence were paid to support the opposite view of 'Rudy the Lone Wolf'. Why do you think none of the courts were able to uphold this, despite Italy being a notoriously insular country with Africans like Rudy not welcome?

IT's because THE EVIDENCE did not and could not support this. In fact, it supported the opposite.
 
She certainly has. In fact she wrote a second one in prison, about some girl without her top being stabbed by strangers at a party.

Someone put forward a theory Amanda went to Italy to specifically commit a murder so she could write a book about it. I scoffed at the time, but this case is so strange, it might even be so, meeting someone like Raff would have been a catalyst for her fantasies, in the same way Myra Hindley enabled Ian Brady's, or Rose West, Fred West's.

I'm afraid you're wrong again. The short essay you are referring to was not about anyone being stabbed or raped.

From The Telegraph (12/7/09)

"In it, a young woman receives a letter from a young man who is in love with her in which he says he can imagine her stretched out on the floor, with some of her clothes removed, in a room full of people who are injecting themselves with drugs.

Later she has to be taken to hospital for unspecified injuries and the young man chastises himself for not having helped her.

"When I came back they had already taken you to the hospital but you must know that I didn't want to abandon you ... I just hope that you're OK. Forgive me," writes Knox."

It was an essay-writing competition was organised by the Catholic charity Caritas. So, no rape, not stabbing, no murder. Strike TWO!

You imply that Amanda's imagination is an indication of her having a penchant for violence, rape, and murder. Yet you seem to have an extremely imaginative inclination for the absurd yourself. Have you ever thought of writing fiction that included rape or, say, maybe slavery? If so, I wonder what you would write in your story and how someone could pick it apart to show that you are capable of violence?
 
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So far Vixen's all 4 criminal comparisons ( Arias, Spencer and Leopold and Loeb) showed signs of trouble leading up to the murders they were involved in. Neither Amanda or Raffaele did. None of the courts believe it was a premeditated murder. Massei was quite complimentary of both Knox and Sollecito. Yet Vixen based not on any evidence but instead just a wild imagination believe it was premeditated because Amanda wasn't invited by Meredith to join her.

Yet Massei found Amanda and Raff guilty as charged, deeming Amanda as the person dealing the fatal blows with the kitchen knife.

Premeditation was not required to be found guilty of aggravated murder. In fact it makes the crime worse that a maximum sentence was handed out without that criteria even needed to be argued.
 
I have never been asked to imagine women being raped and murdered. No responsible tutor would ever give such an assignment.

And neither was Amanda. She never wrote a story about rape and murder either, as I previously showed. What part did you not understand? The part that the rape in Baby Brother was never described? The part that it was not about rape, but the relationship of the brothers? The part where no murder took place? Tell me where your confusion lies and I'll see if I can explain it better.
 
I'm afraid you're wrong again. The short essay you are referring to was not about anyone being stabbed or raped.

From The Telegraph (12/7/09)

"In it, a young woman receives a letter from a young man who is in love with her in which he says he can imagine her stretched out on the floor, with some of her clothes removed, in a room full of people who are injecting themselves with drugs.

Later she has to be taken to hospital for unspecified injuries and the young man chastises himself for not having helped her.

"When I came back they had already taken you to the hospital but you must know that I didn't want to abandon you ... I just hope that you're OK. Forgive me," writes Knox."

It was an essay-writing competition was organised by the Catholic charity Caritas. So, no rape, not stabbing, no murder. Strike TWO!

You imply that Amanda's imagination is an indication of her having a penchant for violence, rape, and murder. Yet you seem to have an extremely imaginative inclination for the absurd yourself. Have you ever thought of writing fiction? If so, I wonder what you would write in your story and how someone could pick it apart to show that you are capable of violence?


'Stabbing' translates from Italian to English as 'piercing'. She was talking of stabbings not drug injections or ear piercing or navel piercing or tongue piercing.


You are making the elementary logical fallacy which runs:

'Homer is a man'

'Therefore, all men are Homer.'
 
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'Stabbing' translates from Italian to English as 'piercing'. She was talking of stabbings not drug injections or ear piercing or navel peirecing or tongue piercing.


You are making the elementary logical fallacy which runs:

'Homer is a man'

'Therefore, all men are Homer.'

Donald? Donald John Trump? Is that you?

Later she has to be taken to hospital for unspecified injuries and the young man chastises himself for not having helped her.

Oh, good lord. What part of unspecified injuries are you not understanding? Please provide a quote from the story where Amanda writes anyone was stabbed or "pierced". They were drug addicts injecting drugs not stabbing people!
 
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