The Trials of Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito: Part 24

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That isn't the prisoner's dilemma and it isn't game theory. You are just saying "people are rationally self-interested".

Jesus H. Christ.

The Nash equilibrium is to betray in the prisoner's dilemma. Period. Full stop. Read a freakin' book once in awhile. It beats pretending you are an expert on everything on the internet.

Do you mind not swearing?

The Prisoners Dilemma is predicated on the Nash Equilibrium.

It is quite ignorant to assume the outcome is always, 'They will always betray each other'. It is simply not so.

In the words of one of my old tutors who says the following phrase is number one of his pet peeve answers:

It depends.

What does it depend on?

1. The available outcome.

2. The available alternative to the above.

3. Does each prisoner have control over his own decision, but not the other's?

4. Whether the prisoner is in fact guilty or innocent.

5. How much the other guys know about his own innocence or guilt.

6. How much he knows about their involvement.

7. Whether the prisoner is rational.

8 Etcetera
 
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Prisoners dilemma is just a variation of the Nash Equilibrium, and can be applied to virtually any situation where the assumption is:

(a) a person acts rationally
(b) they have control over their own decision, but
(c) no direct control over the other guy's decision.



Thus it is rational for Raff to claim he is 'not sure' if Amanda was with him on the murder night; Rudy that it was Raff; Amanda & Raff it was Rudy, Rudy is now 101% sure it was Amanda, etc.

Who gives a crap? Not me. I also don't believe for a second that you have a clue what you are talking about.
 
That isn't the prisoner's dilemma and it isn't game theory. You are just saying "people are rationally self-interested".

Jesus H. Christ.

The Nash equilibrium is to betray in the prisoner's dilemma. Period. Full stop. Read a freakin' book once in awhile. It beats pretending you are an expert on everything on the internet.

Do you mind not swearing?
I don't see any swearing in that post? Where is the swearing?
 
Sorry? I thought we were talking about niceness of character.

That too. There is a difference between relationships we have with roommates and acquaintances and spouses or people you have longtime relationships with. Add real passion to something and anything can happen. The only person who could get me to maybe go over the edge were exes.
I can get angry with others but only to a point.
 
That too. There is a difference between relationships we have with roommates and acquaintances and spouses or people you have longtime relationships with. Add real passion to something and anything can happen. The only person who could get me to maybe go over the edge were exes.
I can get angry with others but only to a point.
I keep reading "maybe go over the edge were exes." as "with axes".

:D
 
No, the Nash Equilibrium predicts that a person will do what is rationally best for his- or herself. IOW they will only screw over their accomplices if they think there's an advantage for themself.

So we see Raff chomping at the bit to let police believe he was at home whilst <shrug> who knows where she was. Raff and Amanda saying it was Rudy alone (although, goodness knows how they know, unless they were there). Rudy making Raff sweat by his constant hints about what he will reveal next. He's lodged an appeal against the dismissal of his request for a review:- and, nota bene: it is based on what Florence Court (Martuscelli-Masi) had to say 10 Feb 2017 about Raff and Amanda. He's twigged that a piece of 'new evidence' is what is needed.

Raff, sweating like crazy, is now campaigning to have Rudy deported - who knows what 'strange things' Rudy will say about him

It's all an amusing side show; the three perps psyching each other out.

Thus, we had the fish blood on Raff's hand from Amanda.

Of the three, Raff is the coldest, and Rudy the cleverest and Amanda the most cunning.

Mignini spotted all of this.

Once again, more lying from Vixen.

So we see Raff chomping at the bit to let police believe he was at home whilst <shrug> who knows where she was.
NO, Raffaele was continuously telling the police Amanda spent the evening with him. Only after being pressured in an interrogation and being denied a calendar did he give them the events that occurred the night before.

Raff and Amanda saying it was Rudy alone (although, goodness knows how they know, unless they were there).
NO, neither one of them ever said a thing about Guede. Only long after the trials did they decide, based on the evidence, that it appears Guede committed the crime alone.

Rudy making Raff sweat by his constant hints about what he will reveal next.
Raffaele was concerned about the police fabricating things (i.e., the bra clasp DNA) but he never indicated any concern over what Guede might say. Why would he - no one believed what Guede said, including trial judges and his own foster family.

Why is it that you feel the need to constantly lie about things?
 
That too. There is a difference between relationships we have with roommates and acquaintances and spouses or people you have longtime relationships with. Add real passion to something and anything can happen. The only person who could get me to maybe go over the edge were exes.
I can get angry with others but only to a point.

I am sure every one of us has had an occasion when we could have inflicted pain on another quite happily.

It is the human condition.


It is a specious argument to say, oh someone couldn't possibly commit a violent crime 'because he or she is a student on holiday, and wouldn't kill his or her roommate'.

That is a non sequitur. Killers come from every level of society.

True someone from a deprived background is more likely to be a damaged individual, for example, Rudy. However, plenty of 'ordinary people' get involved in violence. You only have to see news stories about brawling MP's, who are supposed to epitomise upright citizens.
 
I am sure every one of us has had an occasion when we could have inflicted pain on another quite happily.

It is the human condition.


It is a specious argument to say, oh someone couldn't possibly commit a violent crime 'because he or she is a student on holiday, and wouldn't kill his or her roommate'.

That is a non sequitur. Killers come from every level of society.

True someone from a deprived background is more likely to be a damaged individual, for example, Rudy. However, plenty of 'ordinary people' get involved in violence. You only have to see news stories about brawling MP's, who are supposed to epitomise upright citizens.

You seem to be missing the points.

1. Amanda only knew Meredith for a month and mostly had a good, normal relationship with her. Raffaele didn't really know Meredith at all. Neither had any kind of history of violence or anger issues.

2. Amanda and Raffaele were in a new relationship to which many testified they were completely infatuated with one another. In other words, it was all about them spending time with each other - period.

3. Even if two 'as unlikely as you could find' people suddenly went off the deep end for absolutely no reason, there is still the issue of then engaging with a third person, totally unlike either of them, and whom neither of which knew.

Jody Arias dated Travis for almost 1.5 years and committed the crime alone. Attempting to say Amanda+Raffaele+Guede is perfectly understandable because of Arias is classic apples to oranges.
 
I am sure every one of us has had an occasion when we could have inflicted pain on another quite happily.

It is the human condition.


It is a specious argument to say, oh someone couldn't possibly commit a violent crime 'because he or she is a student on holiday, and wouldn't kill his or her roommate'.

That is a non sequitur. Killers come from every level of society.

True someone from a deprived background is more likely to be a damaged individual, for example, Rudy. However, plenty of 'ordinary people' get involved in violence. You only have to see news stories about brawling MP's, who are supposed to epitomise upright citizens.

Just stop it. Just stop making these false equivalences.

I've been in physical fights in high school and Jr. High. I've also been livid with fellow employees as an adult almost having a physical fight with one. But NEVER have I thought of killing anyone. That said, the most intense emotion I've ever felt was with my father and a couple of exes. I can imagine that kind of emotion causing people to doing good crazy things if they might have issues

You said this was a premeditated murder involving 3 people, none of whom had a real motive to kill Meredith. Sorry, that's just whacko.
 
I'm sorry. I don't care how good the sex might be, but I'm going to get the hell away from my crazy new American girlfriend when she suggests we kill her roommate.



Exactly. What pro-guilt commentators either don't understand, or ignore, or try to misdirect away from, is this: all the evidence of history and psychiatry shows clearly and conclusively that these sorts of group murders ONLY ever take place when/if all of the people comprising the "murder group" have either a) a very deep and highly-evolved level of trust and understanding between each other..... and again, all the history and psychiatry shows clearly that this takes many many months, if not years, to develop to the required degree); or b) one or more of the group has fallen under the psychological control of another (or all the members have fallen under the psychological control of a separate person who is orchestrating the crime from afar).... and once again, the required level of psychological control takes several months or years to develop

There is simply a very near to zero chance that, in the case of Knox and Sollecito, they would have got anywhere even remotely close - in the week and a day(!) that they had known each other - to developing the type of psychological depth of bond (whether that took the form of mutual trust or psychological dominance of one over the other....) to team up to commit this murder. And when you throw Guede into the mix.............

Guede almost certainly committed this horrible murder and sexual assault on his own.
 
Exactly. What pro-guilt commentators either don't understand, or ignore, or try to misdirect away from, is this: all the evidence of history and psychiatry shows clearly and conclusively that these sorts of group murders ONLY ever take place when/if all of the people comprising the "murder group" have either a) a very deep and highly-evolved level of trust and understanding between each other..... and again, all the history and psychiatry shows clearly that this takes many many months, if not years, to develop to the required degree); or b) one or more of the group has fallen under the psychological control of another (or all the members have fallen under the psychological control of a separate person who is orchestrating the crime from afar).... and once again, the required level of psychological control takes several months or years to develop

There is simply a very near to zero chance that, in the case of Knox and Sollecito, they would have got anywhere even remotely close - in the week and a day(!) that they had known each other - to developing the type of psychological depth of bond (whether that took the form of mutual trust or psychological dominance of one over the other....) to team up to commit this murder. And when you throw Guede into the mix.............

Guede almost certainly committed this horrible murder and sexual assault on his own.

The differences as DJT says are Yuuuuge. I hate to say this about other people but my impression of Amanda and Raffaele is that if anything they are boring.

It's not like Amanda came back to the US and went to wild parties and getting arrested for DUI or disturbing the peace or something else stupid. She's been followed by the Paparazzi for years and what do they catch Amanda doing? Going to school, coming out of a thrift store, riding her bike. About the wildest thing they have reported her doing was karaoke. And Raffaele is measured, calm, cool articulate. They bore the hell out of me.

There is just not the time for Amanda to develop some deep hatred for Meredith. (Not to mention a shred of evidence supporting the idea. And there is none for Raffaele. And while I believe Rudy killed Meredith, the idea that he did it at the behest of a crazy American girl he didn't know along with a rich Italian boy he didn't know? Get *********** serious.
 
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I have to say that this whole debacle had quite passed me by but I decided to watch the Netflix documentary the other day anyway as it seemed interesting.

The thing that struck me most from it was the attitude of Italian investigator Megnini, he came acrsos as arrogant and did not seem willing to contemplate the idea that AK and RS could be innocent. It seemed that he was was most concerned in what he considered best for Perugia and Italian pride (and his own pride).

However, what is the deal with the evidence that seems to suggest that the scene was tampered with, with the glass from the break in being on top of the items inside after some sort of attack and the route of entry? If this has been gone over in the previous 23 threads I apologise but I am genuinely interested in this. I got that information from the Nencini Sentencing link provided earlier

Is the enduring interest in this case the fact that we can never really know? Is it still accepted in Italy that Rudy was guilty but did not act alone?
 
I have to say that this whole debacle had quite passed me by but I decided to watch the Netflix documentary the other day anyway as it seemed interesting.

The thing that struck me most from it was the attitude of Italian investigator Megnini, he came acrsos as arrogant and did not seem willing to contemplate the idea that AK and RS could be innocent. It seemed that he was was most concerned in what he considered best for Perugia and Italian pride (and his own pride).

However, what is the deal with the evidence that seems to suggest that the scene was tampered with, with the glass from the break in being on top of the items inside after some sort of attack and the route of entry? If this has been gone over in the previous 23 threads I apologise but I am genuinely interested in this. I got that information from the Nencini Sentencing link provided earlier

Is the enduring interest in this case the fact that we can never really know? Is it still accepted in Italy that Rudy was guilty but did not act alone?

That's one of the arguments. Was the broken window the result of a burglary or wasn't it. Those who believe that Amanda and Raffaele are innocent believe that Rudy killed Meredith in the commission of a burglary and the people that think they are guilty believe it was staged.

Want to explore this more? Check out http://www.injusticeinperugia.org. There is a lot of info there including links to lots of sources.
 
I have to say that this whole debacle had quite passed me by but I decided to watch the Netflix documentary the other day anyway as it seemed interesting.

The thing that struck me most from it was the attitude of Italian investigator Megnini, he came acrsos as arrogant and did not seem willing to contemplate the idea that AK and RS could be innocent. It seemed that he was was most concerned in what he considered best for Perugia and Italian pride (and his own pride).

However, what is the deal with the evidence that seems to suggest that the scene was tampered with, with the glass from the break in being on top of the items inside after some sort of attack and the route of entry? If this has been gone over in the previous 23 threads I apologise but I am genuinely interested in this. I got that information from the Nencini Sentencing link provided earlier

Is the enduring interest in this case the fact that we can never really know? Is it still accepted in Italy that Rudy was guilty but did not act alone?

I would take the Netflix film with a pinch of salt. Its producers are long-time Friends of Amanda Knox and have been campaigning on her behalf for years.

There is a lot of misinformation about Mignini it suits the mafia and the FAO PR campaign. Imagine you are a criminal, you might defame the person who charged you. Likewise, FOA journalist Barbara Bachrach wrote an article claiming Mignini pursued Amanda because of her perceived 'immorality'.

Mignini was moved to respond to her apparent defamation as follows [extract]:

Dr Mignini speaks

I will share just some of my thoughts after reading the article in that magazine, which I would really prefer not to speak about. I mainly want to say that those statements which are put between quotation marks as attributed to me contained in that article? I never pronounced them.

I have never said – and anyone who knows me would understand (though this journalist Judy Bachrach doesn’t know me, doesn’t know me at all and I myself didn’t have the misfortune to know her) that I would never say, I’d never talk about, and I’d never mention, the morality or the immorality of a person as an argument within the explanation for a crime. Absolutely no way.

A crime is a violation of a law, an action that may be reprehensible or whatever you like, but it is an action regulated as provided by the penal code, subjected to penalty by the code, that needs to be ascertained, period. And that’s all. It needs to be ascertained following totally objective criteria. A crime is an objective action, a codified action. It has nothing to do with moral qualities, or allegations of moral qualities, or lack thereof, of an individuals.

The discussion in the article of Bachrach about those allegedly quoted statements about “morality” attributed to me, they are FALSE, I have simply never said them. And one cannot even say that they were a little changed, because I’ve never said anything even remotely like them. Those are statements of a kind that I would NEVER make.

Such is one statement reported in the article where I allegedly said “Amanda killed because motivated by a wish to be liked at any cost” – by the way, statements like those do not make any sense: the person who makes up such statements doesn’t realize she is saying things void of any meaning.

The Italian Penal Procedure code (art. 220) prohibits that any research into the personality of a suspect could be used in court as evidence, such as the finding of a propensity of a suspect to commit crimes or similar argumentations. A proper research into the personality of a suspect is permitted only when there is a need to establish mental capabilities. On the other hand, some features of a suspect personality might be considered during investigations but only to understand the context of a crime.

When I happened to point at some features apparent in the personality of the suspects, I actually cited observations made by criminal psychiatrist Dr. Mastronardi who had given his opinion on the case. Aspects of personalities traits, showing features such as manipulative behaviours or a passive and dependent attitude – to mention some findings involving the suspects – were rather noted, highlighted or detailed not by the prosecution, but by the judges on various instances of the investigation and pre-trial hearings (Investigation Judge C. Matteini, Re-Examination Judge M. Ricciarelli, and Preliminary Judge P. Micheli).

[Editors note. These are the judges who really guided the case. Go to this post and scroll down and click through to posts #13 to #16. That includes the findings of the Supreme Court, which backed up the findings of Dr Matteini and Dr Ricciarelli’s panel. It also includes Dr Mignini’s interrogation of Knox, in which she in effect froze up; this was done at her own request though her lawyers were none too thrilled - they feared she would bomb out, and she did.]

As for the “motive” on this case. It should be pointed out that in a case like the murder of Meredith Kercher – the murder of a young student girl who was uninvolved in dangerous circles and had no enemies – independently from the identity of the perpetrators, we are talking about a crime that cannot have have a “motive” with a rational or consistent logical structure, nor could it be ascribed to a particular conscious and organized intention.
http://truejustice.org/ee/index.php...hoax_trial_co_prosecutor_dr_mignini_responds/

You can read the full rebuttal on the above link.

The following article explains the demonization of Mignini. I hope after reading it, it will become clearer why the Amanda Knox advocate producers of the Netflix film have a vested interest in portraying him in an exaggerately derogatory light.

http://truejustice.org/ee/index.php...erate_demonization_of_dr_mignini_to_the_sati/
 
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The differences as DJT says are Yuuuuge. I hate to say this about other people but my impression of Amanda and Raffaele is that if anything they are boring.

It's not like Amanda came back to the US and went to wild parties and getting arrested for DUI or disturbing the peace or something else stupid. She's been followed by the Paparazzi for years and what do they catch Amanda doing? Going to school, coming out of a thrift store, riding her bike. About the wildest thing they have reported her doing was karaoke. And Raffaele is measured, calm, cool articulate. They bore the hell out of me.

There is just not the time for Amanda to develop some deep hatred for Meredith. (Not to mention a shred of evidence supporting the idea. And there is none for Raffaele. And while I believe Rudy killed Meredith, the idea that he did it at the behest of a crazy American girl he didn't know along with a rich Italian boy he didn't know? Get *********** serious.

OK. Something else is burbling under the Vixen surface. I suspect I know what it is, but let vixen hold forth on that matter.
 
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