The Trials of Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito: Part 24

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Temporary Resident Permits
Applying for a Temporary Resident Permit, or TRP, is the best way to be granted entry to Canada for a particular trip or a series of related trips. This is how American athletes get into the country despite DUI’s or other offenses. About 10,000 TRP’s are granted every year and many are to people with less than stellar pasts.
A TRP is an application that requests entry to Canada for a specific time period despite a criminal conviction. A TRP only grants entry to Canada for a fixed time period – although you can enter and leave Canada multiple times within that timeframe. A TRP is only valid for one year from the date of issuance.

To be granted a TRP, the applicant will need to demonstrate a required need for entering Canada, such as work, an emergency situation, or a humanitarian/compassionate reason. The goal on a TRP application is to demonstrate that the individual is not a threat to Canadian security during the period they will be in Canada, and to convince the office that their reason for being in Canada during that period may be a benefit to Canada (for example, if the person is attending a work meeting and will be bringing business to Canada).
What you're failing to recognize is that the CBSA is the department that handles visitors and immigration. If someone shows up at the border without the TRP the border agents being OFFICERS of the CBSA can waive the requirement and/or issue a TRP or refuse entry. It is at their discretion. 300,000 people pass through 119 border crossings and Windsor Canada is the busiest.

You seem to think that they want to keep people out who don't pose a threat. I hope you're honest enough to admit that this infraction hardly constitutes a threat to Canadian citizens.
 
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I love it when you pretend to know what you're talking about. I didn't know you were a Canadian Border Agent. Do you commute for that job?

I do know that when we visited Toronto - for a Christmas shopping trip organised by the Civil Service Union - on the way back, the plane diverted to Quebec, whereupon we all alighted the plane and headed for the duty-free shops. We had our baskets laden with best Canadian salmon and other local delights. When we got to the cash desk queuing up nicely in our British way, we were informed we were not allowed to buy anything as the plane wasn't scheduled there. So some of the guys were not so polite and dumped their baskets on the floor. So the CBSA and staff are jobsworths.

The Canadian border has full access to all the criminal record and DMV databases in the United States, so anyone who has been convicted of a felony will very likely be flagged at the border. There are two ways to travel to Canada with felony charges or convictions appearing on your criminal record.
Entering Canada with a Felony - Travel to Canada with Felony
www.temporaryresidentpermitcanada.com/felony.php
 
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What you're failing to recognize is that the CBSA is the department that handles visitors and immigration. If someone shows up at the border without the TRP the border agents being OFFICERS of the CBSA can waive the requirement and/or issue a TRP or refuse entry. It is at their discretion. 300,000 people pass through 119 border crossings and Windsor Canada is the busiest.

You seem to think that they want to keep people out who don't pose a threat. I hope you're honest enough to admit that this infraction hardly constitutes a threat to Canadian citizens.

Seriously? So some people with felonies go to the trouble of clearance, and the rest don't bother? What kind of shambles is that?
 
Vixen. answer my question.

WHY DO TJMK, TMOFMK AND PMF HAVE NO COPIES OF AMANDA'S US CRIMINAL RECORD ON THEIR SITES IF IT EXISTS?
 
I do know that when we visited Toronto - for a Christmas shopping trip organised by the Civil Service Union - on the way back, the plane diverted to Quebec, whereupon we all alighted the plane and headed for the duty-free shops. We had our baskets laden with best Canadian salmon and other local delights. When we got to the cash desk queuing up nicely in our British way, we were informed we were not allowed to buy anything as the plane wasn't scheduled there. So some of the guys were not so polite and dumped their baskets on the floor. So the CBSA and staff are jobsworths.


Entering Canada with a Felony - Travel to Canada with Felony
www.temporaryresidentpermitcanada.com/felony.php

But Amanda hadn't committed a felony. She doesn’t have a criminal record in the United States and Italy doesn't have felonies. Ooops, you did it again.
 
But Amanda hadn't committed a felony. She doesn’t have a criminal record in the United States and Italy doesn't have felonies. Ooops, you did it again.

So when Rudy is let out in the next couple of years he can come to the USA freely as his aggravated murder conviction is 'not a felony' as he did it in Italy (and - note - Marasca-Bruno stated Amanda covered up for him).


Nice.
 
Seriously? So some people with felonies go to the trouble of clearance, and the rest don't bother? What kind of shambles is that?

Don't you get it? The clearance made ahead of time speeds up the process. Not everybody checks.all the regulations of everywhere they go. They probably should. But they don't.

They don't want to stop anyone. They want to let you through unless they believe you pose a threat to the people of Canada. They want your money.
 
So when Rudy is let out in the next couple of years he can come to the USA freely as his aggravated murder conviction is 'not a felony' as he did it in Italy (and - note - Marasca-Bruno stated Amanda covered up for him).


Nice.

Callunia is not murder.
 
Callunia is not murder.

You see no problem with Amanda covering up for a convicted sex-murderer?

There are no issues regarding Marasca-Bruno saying she was certainly at the murder scene?

Or more recently, Masi-Martuscelli of Florence 22 Jan 2017, in dismissing Raff's compensation claim (and ordering him to pay costs), commented on the 'falseness' and 'untruthfulness' of Amanda's statements to the police.

That's OK with you?
 
You see no problem with Amanda covering up for a convicted sex-murderer?

There are no issues regarding Marasca-Bruno saying she was certainly at the murder scene?

Or more recently, Masi-Martuscelli of Florence 22 Jan 2017, in dismissing Raff's compensation claim (and ordering him to pay costs), commented on the 'falseness' and 'untruthfulness' of Amanda's statements to the police.

That's OK with you?

You can and have twisted and spun what happened. I don't see it your way. I see that Amanda Knox was falsely accused of a crime she had nothing to do with.

I hope that Amanda and Raffaele both have happy and productive lives.

Can I have an Amen sister?
 
I've just had a "talking to" from someone who doesn't really want to get in to it, and does not want to be id'ed, but who seems to be taking Vixen's side on this.

Almost.

The key for this person is that in both Canada and Italy, both are included in their penal code sections on, "Offences Against the Administration of Law and Justice", rather than having one be in there and the other be in their sections on, "Offences Against the Person and Reputation". If that had been the case (which it isn't), Vixen would not have a leg to stand on.

Just as I said, "So we should be conceding to Vixen.......?" came the reply (paraphrased), "No. The compelling issue is that neither CBSA nor anything else I can find treats them as equivalents."

I think he just wanted to make the point that in both Italy and in Canada, the respective offenses are "Offences Against the Administration of Law and Justice", and one would want to start a conversation assuming they were equivalent.

Except that the Canadian government is not treating it as if it were, and there must be a reason for that. For me, I cannot find that reason.

ETA - this is a completely different question to the one Stacyhs poses..... if whether or not Canada recognizes there to be insufficient evidence to have convicted.

Bill, I think you found through your anonymous source that calunnia is not simply a "crime against honor", so your argument is in about the same condition as the parrot in the Monty Python skit.:)

Calunnia is really the crime of false accusation or false denunciation. Think of it from its origins in the 1930 Codice Penale. Some people in Italy were probably eager to get a disliked neighbor in trouble with the Fascist authorities by going to the police and falsely claiming that the neighbor had said something negative about Il Duce. So the authorities wanted this false denunciation stopped and enacted a strict law against it.

But it apparently has continued to serve the needs of the Italian Republic and remains law, as does autocalunnia - false confession - another crime in Italy. The beauty of the autocalunnia law (CP Article 369) is that, if the police "accidentally" subject a person to (mis)treatment that results in a false confession, the police have immunity from responsibility; it is the person who falsely confessed that must be punished for making the false statements to Italian authorities. And certainly "autocalunnia" is not an honor crime.

These laws of the Codice Penale and others of similar nature are in the following section:

Titolo III - Dei delitti contro l'amministrazione della giustizia

Title III - Crimes against the administration of justice

Source: http://www.leggeonline.info/leggi/c...itti_contro_lamministrazione_della_giustizia/

I hope you can see the elegance of these Italian laws now. Anyone who doesn't approve of them may be in trouble with Il Duce.

Now, getting back to Canadian public mischief compared to Italian calunnia.

Public mischief under Canadian Criminal Code 140(1a) has these elements: 1) the person committing it has the intent to mislead; 2) the person committing it makes a false statement accusing someone else of committing a crime; 3) the false statement causes a peace officer to enter on or continue an investigation.

I think you will agree that "the intent to mislead" itself has two elements in this context: 1) the person committing public mischief, based on evidence, knows the statement is false; 2) the person committing it, based on evidence, makes the false statement with the intention of misleading - that is, the statement is a willful, voluntary act meant to mislead.

Calunnia under Italian CP Article 368 has these elements: 1) the person committing it makes a false statement accusing someone else of committing a crime; 2) the person committing knows the statement is false; 3) the statement is made to a judicial authority - which means the police, a prosecutor or a magistrate or a judge, or a court - or to the International Criminal Court.

Now, what's the difference between public mischief CCC 140(1a) and calunnia CP Article 368? I see the significant difference is that public mischief includes the element of "intent to mislead" which itself implies "knowing the statement is false" and "willfully (voluntarily) making the statement to mislead or deceive the peace officer".

So calunnia is NOT public mischief, in my opinion. Just as blasphemy in, for example, Pakistan, is not the same (depending on the specific acts) as blasphemy in Canada. To belabor this point: suppose a person Z in country A, with intentional disrespect, but in private without publicizing the act, tears up a Bible and uses the pages to line the bottom of a bird cage (which houses the Monty Python parrot while it was still alive). A visiting neighbor sees the pages of the Bible on the bottom of the bird cage (without Z calling attention to them) and reports this crime to the police. Person Z is convicted of blasphemy in accordance with the laws of country A. After being released from prison, Z decides to visit Canada, perhaps even to immigrate. What are Z's obligations to the CBSA with regard to the blasphemy conviction in country A? Has Z committed blasphemy or any act that would be a crime in Canada?
 
You can and have twisted and spun what happened. I don't see it your way. I see that Amanda Knox was falsely accused of a crime she had nothing to do with.

I hope that Amanda and Raffaele both have happy and productive lives.

Can I have an Amen sister?

Let's sum up. Here we have someone who brags he doesn't believe in blind faith...averring his blind faith in some complete stranger, who was fairly found guilty at trial and appeal.

As for your last question:

https://youtu.be/vsZZFjJMI30
 
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Let's sum up. Here we have someone who brags he doesn't believe in blind faith...averring his blind faith in some complete stranger, who was fairly found guilty at trial and appeal.
Yes, let's sum up. Faith has nothing to do with my calculations. It wouldn't matter to me what the Italian courts decided in this case as I KNOW THE FACTS.
 
It is a straw man question. You are the only one claiming that 'Amanda must be charged and convicted in the USA' for her to have a record.

However, the fact she would have had to register as a sex offender in the USA had Marasca-Bruno in Italy not annulled it (but - note - made it clear she certainly was present at the murder).

So your hypothesis 'It only counts in the country you did it in' is pure codswallop.

FALSE. I have never claimed that 'Amanda must be charged and convicted in the USA' for her to have a record.
I have said, and am saying, that her conviction for calunnia in Italy is not recognized in the US. A murder conviction WOULD be recognized in the US...but she has no murder conviction.

Again, your entire last paragraph has nothing to do with my question which remains:

WHY DO TJMK, TMOFMK AND PMF HAVE NO COPIES OF AMANDA'S US CRIMINAL RECORD ON THEIR SITES IF IT EXISTS?


Linking to your past post that I've already exposed as not answering the actual question asked does not change anything, Vixen. ANSWER THE QUESTION:

WHY DO TJMK, TMOFMK AND PMF HAVE NO COPIES OF AMANDA'S US CRIMINAL RECORD ON THEIR SITES IF IT EXISTS?
 
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Bill, I think you found through your anonymous source that calunnia is not simply a "crime against honor", so your argument is in about the same condition as the parrot in the Monty Python skit.:)

Calunnia is really the crime of false accusation or false denunciation. Think of it from its origins in the 1930 Codice Penale. Some people in Italy were probably eager to get a disliked neighbor in trouble with the Fascist authorities by going to the police and falsely claiming that the neighbor had said something negative about Il Duce. So the authorities wanted this false denunciation stopped and enacted a strict law against it.

But it apparently has continued to serve the needs of the Italian Republic and remains law, as does autocalunnia - false confession - another crime in Italy. The beauty of the autocalunnia law (CP Article 369) is that, if the police "accidentally" subject a person to (mis)treatment that results in a false confession, the police have immunity from responsibility; it is the person who falsely confessed that must be punished for making the false statements to Italian authorities. And certainly "autocalunnia" is not an honor crime.

These laws of the Codice Penale and others of similar nature are in the following section:

Titolo III - Dei delitti contro l'amministrazione della giustizia

Title III - Crimes against the administration of justice

Source: http://www.leggeonline.info/leggi/c...itti_contro_lamministrazione_della_giustizia/

I hope you can see the elegance of these Italian laws now. Anyone who doesn't approve of them may be in trouble with Il Duce.

Now, getting back to Canadian public mischief compared to Italian calunnia.

Public mischief under Canadian Criminal Code 140(1a) has these elements: 1) the person committing it has the intent to mislead; 2) the person committing it makes a false statement accusing someone else of committing a crime; 3) the false statement causes a peace officer to enter on or continue an investigation.

I think you will agree that "the intent to mislead" itself has two elements in this context: 1) the person committing public mischief, based on evidence, knows the statement is false; 2) the person committing it, based on evidence, makes the false statement with the intention of misleading - that is, the statement is a willful, voluntary act meant to mislead.

Calunnia under Italian CP Article 368 has these elements: 1) the person committing it makes a false statement accusing someone else of committing a crime; 2) the person committing knows the statement is false; 3) the statement is made to a judicial authority - which means the police, a prosecutor or a magistrate or a judge, or a court - or to the International Criminal Court.

Now, what's the difference between public mischief CCC 140(1a) and calunnia CP Article 368? I see the significant difference is that public mischief includes the element of "intent to mislead" which itself implies "knowing the statement is false" and "willfully (voluntarily) making the statement to mislead or deceive the peace officer".

So calunnia is NOT public mischief, in my opinion. Just as blasphemy in, for example, Pakistan, is not the same (depending on the specific acts) as blasphemy in Canada. To belabor this point: suppose a person Z in country A, with intentional disrespect, but in private without publicizing the act, tears up a Bible and uses the pages to line the bottom of a bird cage (which houses the Monty Python parrot while it was still alive). A visiting neighbor sees the pages of the Bible on the bottom of the bird cage (without Z calling attention to them) and reports this crime to the police. Person Z is convicted of blasphemy in accordance with the laws of country A. After being released from prison, Z decides to visit Canada, perhaps even to immigrate. What are Z's obligations to the CBSA with regard to the blasphemy conviction in country A? Has Z committed blasphemy or any act that would be a crime in Canada?

Applying the difference between calunnia and public mischief to this case:

1. Amanda Knox was convicted of calunnia against Lumumba by the Hellmann court. This conviction was made definitive by the Chieffi CSC panel.

2. Knox's conviction, according to the Hellmann court motivation report, was not at all based on any intent to deceive or mislead. This is a quote from the MR, English translation:

"Beyond the formal aspect, the context in which those statements were made was clearly characterized by a psychological situation which for Amanda Knox had become an unsupportable burden: witness Donnino reports that an outright emotional shock on the part of Amanda Knox occurred when the matter of the exchange of messages with Lumumba was raised.

Now, since Lumumba was in fact uninvolved in the murder, the emotional shock cannot be considered to have arisen from her having been caught (doing what, exchanging a message with a person who had nothing to do with the crime?), but rather from having reached the limit of emotional tension.

In that context, it is understandable that Amanda Knox, yielding to pressure and fatigue, would have hoped to put an end to that situation by giving her interrogators that which, in the end, they wanted to hear: a name, a murderer."

Thus, no intention to mislead, and therefore the calunnia conviction is not equivalent to public mischief under Canadian law.

The Hellmann court MR also indicates that Knox's statement, even though it claims she knew it to be false, was not given voluntarily, in the sense of "voluntary" that applies under common law in Canada.

It's important to remember that calunnia only requires knowing that the statement of accusation is false, not requiring any intent. In practice, apparently it does not matter that the false statement is given under coercion. The importance of this in Italian law is that the police are thus provided with impunity for any misconduct which induces a witness to make a false accusation. So it that sense, calunnia is an honor crime - it protects the honor of the police.
 
Now, what's the difference between public mischief CCC 140(1a) and calunnia CP Article 368? I see the significant difference is that public mischief includes the element of "intent to mislead" which itself implies "knowing the statement is false" and "willfully (voluntarily) making the statement to mislead or deceive the peace officer".

So calunnia is NOT public mischief, in my opinion. Just as blasphemy in, for example, Pakistan, is not the same (depending on the specific acts) as blasphemy in Canada. To belabor this point: suppose a person Z in country A, with intentional disrespect, but in private without publicizing the act, tears up a Bible and uses the pages to line the bottom of a bird cage (which houses the Monty Python parrot while it was still alive). A visiting neighbor sees the pages of the Bible on the bottom of the bird cage (without Z calling attention to them) and reports this crime to the police. Person Z is convicted of blasphemy in accordance with the laws of country A. After being released from prison, Z decides to visit Canada, perhaps even to immigrate. What are Z's obligations to the CBSA with regard to the blasphemy conviction in country A? Has Z committed blasphemy or any act that would be a crime in Canada?

I think I'm following this. I think.

There's a huge debate within the USA between justices who are "originalists" and those who attempt to interpret laws as their original intent was, rather than how this intent might evolve through the ages. Justice Scalia was one, and his replacement, Gorsuch, is another.

There's another huge debate as to the amount judges can divine the intent of a law, from the way it developed - as opposed to forgetting its development and simply interpreting the final judicial product as legislators drafted it.

You've positioned yourself as a liberal interpreter of laws. You're no Scalia or Gorsuch.

Still - the starting point for determining if calunnia has an equivalent crime in Canada, so I am told, is where it is listed (which other laws it is sectioned with). It seems Vixen is on the right track, so I am told, in that both public mischief (Canada) and calunnia (Italy) are contained in sections titled (loosely), "Offences Against the Administration of Law and Justice".

In Italy, this is even more pronounced, because other countries around it which also descend from Inquisatorial criminal systems (like France or Belguim) count this crime as a crime against honour, not the administration of law and justice.

So the argument as to the two laws inequivalency, belongs elsewhere. No one as of yet has shown me where it is, and I don't have access or training, really, to figure it out myself.

But, I am told, the compelling issue here is that in this case, we are talking about someone who has twice now gone to Canada within 6 months - to talk on the very subject that should naturally attract the attention of CBSA. And here's the key, CBSA found no barriers to her entrance - which you might expect if Vixen were 100% right.

For someone who is not a lawyer to be invited to talk at a law school event on the wrongfully convicted, and having a name which once had been in the news (although not big in Canada) - can be expected to attract attention.

So the fact of the seamless travel through the border signals something that I cannot find, but also that Vixen cannot admit, and which undeniably remains. CBSA does not regard Knox as a felon.

I'd be surprised if a CBSA agent - who always has full discretion - buried themselves in the minutiae as per above Numbers. That scenario would require a prior intervention by, perhaps, a Seattle lawyer to the Canadian government, and then a notice sent to ports of entry attached to the American passport in question.

My guess - an uneducated one - is that it would be more akin to why Canada threatened to refuse extradition to Wisconsin of Laurie Bembenek, who was MORE than simply a convicted murderer, but an escaped convict! Yet when Canada looked into the case when preparing for a potential extradition, Canada put riders onto the request that Wisconsin review the conviction, or Canada would refuse extradition.

This act won Bembenek a new trial. My guess is akin to your other scenario that someone in the Canadian government has actually looked into Knox's calunnia conviction and determined that the evidence in Italy does not support a conviction.

So where I am sitting now is that more than likely calunnia and public mischief are not equivalent crimes, but that the reason is located elsewhere other than in the Criminal Code itself.

Custody battles

I hope I'm getting this last part right, but it was mentioned earlier today and I ran across this frequently in my own reading - in case law "public mischief" shows up frequently in parental custody battles, where the accusation is a targeted maneuver against a specific person. What Knox's calunnia conviction lacks is any sense that (assuming it was a safe conviction for a moment) Knox purposefully wanted to harm Lumumba specifically. It was you, Numbers, who noted that Hellmann based his own calunnia conviction on something other than that Lumumba specifically had been targeted.

I would have said that a key element in the case law for public mischief was this specific targeting against an individual (something contained in the case law surrounding Section 140 in Canada, but totally absent from calunnia in Italy) - except there's also this strange case of the New Year's Eve party, where when the host falsely claimed that the murder victim had left her party safely, she was herself ended up being charged with public mischief under Section 140, without even naming a culprit (falsely or otherwise) at all!

When the defence lawyer wanted the judge to dismiss the charge as the wrong one on which to try his client, the judge refused. That one was a headscratcher.

So - I can only repeat what I've been told - the key element is that CBSA is acting as if Italian calunnia and Canadian public mischief are not equivalents, with all the caveats above.

But regardless of the nuances, it's what CBSA is doing. This is where the guilter will have to, eventually, start accusing the CBSA of being a stooge to the Masons - like they've done with Kassim, Douglas, Moore, Dr. Gill, etc.
 
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I've just had a "talking to" from someone who doesn't really want to get in to it, and does not want to be id'ed, but who seems to be taking Vixen's side on this.

Almost.

The key for this person is that in both Canada and Italy, both are included in their penal code sections on, "Offences Against the Administration of Law and Justice", rather than having one be in there and the other be in their sections on, "Offences Against the Person and Reputation". If that had been the case (which it isn't), Vixen would not have a leg to stand on.

Just as I said, "So we should be conceding to Vixen.......?" came the reply (paraphrased), "No. The compelling issue is that neither CBSA nor anything else I can find treats them as equivalents."

I think he just wanted to make the point that in both Italy and in Canada, the respective offenses are "Offences Against the Administration of Law and Justice", and one would want to start a conversation assuming they were equivalent.

Except that the Canadian government is not treating it as if it were, and there must be a reason for that. For me, I cannot find that reason.

ETA - this is a completely different question to the one Stacyhs poses..... if whether or not Canada recognizes there to be insufficient evidence to have convicted.

A comment on this.

IMO, you are misinterpreting the posts. It is not the quality or sufficiency of the evidence that is in question, but rather the elements of the definitions of the crimes (public mischief v. calunnia).

For example, in extradition cases, if someone is accused of committing crime A when he was in country 1, but he is now in country 2, and country 1 requests his extradition, the typical extradition treaty requires that there be a crime in country 2 with the same elements as crime A, even if the names of the crimes are different in each country.

Calunnia and public mischief are different in that the intent to mislead is an element of public mischief but not of calunnia. Calunnia can occur without any intent to mislead and need not be based on a voluntary statement, at least in Italian practice.

In the Boninsegna MR, Knox was acquitted not directly because of what the police did to her during the interrogation, but rather:

"There is not, hence, sufficient evidence that the events did not occur as Knox reported, as regards the police. .... The Prosecutor was believed by her to be, albeit mistakenly, the primary architect and the inspiration behind her state of subjugation and submission. Hence it follows that, as regards this charge, the fact does not constitute an offense, since it is missing the subjective element [of knowing the innocence of the accused person], there being at most the possibility of [the defendant] accepting this eventuality [dolo eventuale], which is incompatible with the crime of calumny.

It can be, therefore, concluded that the chosen investigative practices induced in the defendant the conviction, or the reasonable doubt, that she was being subjected to a planned, oppressive and unfair investigative action - this also takes into account Knox’s definitive acquittal in the main criminal trial because she did not commit the crime of murder - in light of the overall way in which her interrogation was performed."

That is, Knox's statements in court about the police were not calunnia because she was convinced that she was had been oppressed during the interrogation. Therefore, since she was convinced her statements were true, she didn't know that her statements were false. (That's how I interpret Boninsegna's statement.) In fact, Boninsegna indicates (as did the Gemelli CSC panel and Hellmann) that her defense rights had been violated, but it's not clear from Boninsegna whether those violations themselves justify the acquittal. And please note the use of the term "subjective element", which refers to knowing that one is falsely accusing an innocent person.
 
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