MicahJava
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Reheat, check out the book Six Seconds In Dallas by Josiah Thompson and search the phrase "pointed tip".
http://krusch.com/books/kennedy/Six_Seconds_In_Dallas.pdf
JFK Conspiracy Theories IV: The One With The Whales
- Thread starter Robert Harris
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Reheat, check out the book Six Seconds In Dallas by Josiah Thompson and search the phrase "pointed tip".
http://krusch.com/books/kennedy/Six_Seconds_In_Dallas.pdf
MicahJava
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Who doubts there was a shooter on the east corner of the sixth floor?
Jarman had a 11/24/1963 FBI report that does mention Harold Norman saying a piece of debris fell on him, but it wasn't until his 3/24/1964 Warren Commission testimony that he mentioned Bonnie Ray Williams having debris on his head. He didn't mention debris falling on Harold Norman to the Warren Commission, but instead told them that he remembers him saying that he thought he heard the shell casings and bolt action.
Like the later version of Williams' testimony, and unlike Harold Norman's testimony, he said the last two shots were close together.
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Well, these questions occurred in 1966. All it does is to create haunting questions like a lot of the other evidence. The exact shape or caliber of a bullet years later might be difficult to remember. What might be more important is to see the original evidence log. There should have been a detailed police description of it then. Unfortunately it's not a smoking gun. Was it in Dallas police custody or the FBI?
HSienzant
Philosopher
More evidence for only a two-shot assassination. Thanks.
I'm confused as to why you would think two shots is more indicative of a conspiracy than three shots.
Hank
HSienzant
Philosopher
And wait, there's more!
The bullet was "planted / discovered" on a different floor from where the President or the Governor was taken for treatment. However, upon investigation, it was determined it came off one of two stretchers near an elevator two floors from the emergency rooms, and one of those two just happened to be the Governor's stretcher he originally occupied.
So not only do the plotters plant or swap the appropriate bullet, they plant it somehow on a different floor yet somehow near the appropriate stretcher to sell a "Magic Bullet Theory" that hasn't even been imagined yet.
And as pointed out previously, what if none of the bullets that struck either victim exited either victim? What if JFK had two bullet entry wounds, and two bullets inside him, while the Governor had another bullet inside him?
Then planting a bullet wouldn't further a conspiracy, it would reveal one, because now you'd have a fourth bullet found on a stretcher that had no corresponding wound to match up against.
Hank
HSienzant
Philosopher
I'm not entirely convinced of a early missed first shot. Read the thread. Especially my responses to Robert Harris.
As I pointed out to him, a case can be made for just two shots, about five seconds apart. It invokes the closest witnesses to the limo, most of whom said they heard two shots only.
Hank
HSienzant
Philosopher
You need to get up to speed here, traxy.
Witnesses are entirely credible when they point to the knoll, and are NOT TO BE DOUBTED. Case in point: Beverly Oliver, who came forward six years after the assassination to claim she filmed the assassination, including the knoll, and claimed she turned over this film to an FBI agent, and never saw it again.
Witnesses who claim to have heard or seen anything pointing to Lee Harvey Oswald shall have their statements gone over with a fine tooth comb, with every failure to dot an 'i' or cross a 't' deemed indicative of a lying witness who would sell his soul for money.
So a witness didn't say three shots until March, about four months after the assassination? That's still about 18 times sooner than Oliver first came forward, but of course, Oliver's delay in coming forward isn't questionable to conspiracy theorists.
Hank
We agree, there was a shooter on the 6th floor. Shots loud enough to rattle debris loose.
Why did the knoll earwitnesses not identify the depository as a source of at least some of the shots?
HSienzant
Philosopher
Some argue that the original bullet recovered was a hunting round from a different shooting in Dallas, but this comes with its own set of problems (see below response to Micah Java).
No, it would have to have been fired from Oswald's rifle to the exclusion of all other weapons in the world. Otherwise, the microscopic random rifling characteristics would not match to test bullets fired from Oswald's weapon, and therefore would reveal the existence of a second shooter using the same type of weapon.
Two people said that. The Warren Commission dismissed them. I tend to believe Ruby was there, as he tended to go where the action was. That doesn't mean he was part of a conspiracy to plant bullets, however.
Yes, it was difficult for Dr. Olivier to imagine it also. But he actually conducted tests and found the bullet would fragment severely upon striking the skull.
Mr. SPECTER, Dr. Olivier, in the regular course of your work for the U.S. Army, do you have occasion to perform tests on reconstructed human skulls to determine the effects of bullets on skulls?
Dr. OLIVIER. Yes; I do.
Mr. SPECTER. And did you have occasion to conduct such a test in connection with the series which you are now describing?
Dr. OLIVIER. Yes; I did.
Mr. SPECTER. And would you outline briefly the procedures for simulating the human skull?
Dr. OLIVIER. Human skulls, we take these human skulls and they are imbedded and filled with 20 percent gelatin. As I mentioned before, 20 percent gelatin is a pretty good simulant for body tissues.
They are in the moisture content. When I say 20 percent, it is 20 percent weight of the dry gelatin, 80 percent moisture.
The skull, the cranial cavity, is filled with this and the surface is coated with a gelatin and then it is trimmed down to approximate the thickness of the tissues overlying the skull, the soft tissues of the head.
Mr. SPECTER. And at what distance were these tests performed?
Dr. OLIVIER. These tests were performed at a distance of 90 yards.
Mr. SPECTER. And what gun was used?
Dr. OLIVIER. It was a 6.5 Mannlicher-Carcano that was marked Commission Exhibit 139. [Oswald's weapon - Hank]
Mr. SPECTER. What bullets were used?
Dr. OLIVIER. It was the 6.5 millimeter Mannlicher-Carcano Western ammunition lot 6,000.
Mr. SPECTER. What did that examination or test, rather, disclose?
Dr. OLIVIER. It disclosed that the type of head wounds that the President received could be done by this type of bullet. This surprised me very much, because this type of a stable bullet I didn't think would cause a massive head wound, I thought it would go through making a small entrance and exit, but the bones of the skull are enough to deform the end of this bullet causing it to expend a lot of energy and blowing out the side of the skull or blowing out fragments of the skull.
Mr. SPECTER. I now hand you a case containing bullet fragments marked Commission Exhibit 857 and ask if you have ever seen those fragments before.
Dr. OLIVIER. Yes, I have.
Mr. SPECTER. And under what circumstances have you viewed those before, please?
Dr. OLIVIER. There were, the two larger fragments were recovered outside of the skull in the cotton waste we were using to catch the fragments without deforming them. There are some smaller fragments in here that were obtained from the gelatin within the cranial cavity after the experiment. We melted the gelatin out and recovered the smallest fragments from within the cranial cavity.
Mr. SPECTER. Now, I show you two fragments designated as Commission Exhibits 567 and 569 heretofore identified as having been found on the front seat of the President's car on November 22, 1963, and ask you if you have had an opportunity to examine those before.
CE567: http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh17/html/WH_Vol17_0141b.htm
CE569: http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh17/html/WH_Vol17_0142a.htm
Dr. OLIVIER. Yes, I have.
Mr. SPECTER. And have you had an opportunity to compare those to the two fragments identified as Commission Exhibit 857?
CE857: http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh17/html/WH_Vol17_0439a.htm
Dr. OLIVIER. Yes, I have.
Mr. SPECTER. And what did that comparison show?
Dr. OLIVIER. They are quite similar. These two fragments on, what is the number?
Mr. SPECTER. 857.
Dr. OLIVIER. On 857 there isn't as much of the front part in this one, but in other respects they are very similar.
...
Mr. SPECTER. I now hand you a photograph marked as Commission Exhibit 861, move its admission into evidence, and ask you to state what that depicts.
Dr. OLIVIER. This is the skull in question, the same one from which the fragments marked Exhibit 857 were recovered.
Mr. SPECTER. And what does that show as to damage done to the skull?
Dr. OLIVIER. It blew the whole side of the cranial cavity away.
...
Mr. SPECTER. Did you formulate any other conclusions or opinions based on the tests on firing at the skull?
Dr. OLIVIER. Well, let's see. We found that this bullet could do exactly--could make the type of wound that the President received.
Also, that the recovered fragments were very similar to the ones recovered on the front seat and on the floor of the car.
This, to me, indicates that those fragments did come from the bullet that wounded the President in the head.
Mr. SPECTER. And how do the two major fragments in 857 compare, then, with the fragments heretofore identified as 567 and 569?
Dr. OLIVIER. They are quite similar.
Here's images of what the test skull looked like:
CE591: http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh17/html/WH_Vol17_0440b.htm
That was the one that struck no bone in JFK, then was tumbling and struck Connally in the back, then struck a rib, slowing down more before it stuck the wrist sideways and then created a shallow wound in Connally's thigh.
Hank
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HSienzant
Philosopher
Only one man recalled it that way, and he recalled it that way three years after the assassination. His recollection doesn't eliminate CE399 from the evidence trail, as much as you would like to insist otherwise. He recalls a bullet with an undamaged tip, and that's exactly how CE399 appears.
Here's the background from the book you cite (footnote 17 on page 175):
17. In the report of the FBI agent who showed Tomlinson and Wright CE 399 we learn that although neither could positively identify 399 as the bullet they handled on November 22, nevertheless they thought it bore a general resemblance to 399. This makes all the more strange what Wright told me in November, 1966. I asked him what the bullet looked like, and he replied that it had a pointed tip like the one I held in my hand (earlier he had procured a .30 caliber unfired projectile that we had placed on the stretcher cart in our reenactment). I then drew three bullet shapes: one pointed like the .30 caliber; another long with rounded tip—like 399; still another squat and rounded, like a .38 caliber. Wright picked the pointed tip as the one that most resembled the bullet found on the stretcher. I then showed him photographs of CE's 399, 572 (the two ballistics comparison rounds from Oswald's rifle), and 606 (revolver bullets), and he rejected all of these as resembling the bullet Tomlinson found on the stretcher. Half an hour later in the presence of two witnesses, he once again rejected the picture of 399 as resembling the bullet found on the stretcher. Sometime later he asked me if one of the pictures I had shown him was supposed to be the bullet found on the stretcher. I replied, "Yes," and he seemed quite prepared to stick by his story. As a professional law-enforcement officer, Wright has an educated eye for bullet shapes. Tomlinson's recollection of bullet shapes was not very clear, and he could say only that the bullet found resembled either CE 572 (the ballistics comparison rounds) or the pointed, .30 caliber bullet Wright had procured for us.
This is an appalling piece of information, for if Wright's recollection is accurate, then CE 399 must have been switched for the real bullet sometime later in the transmission chain. This could have been done only by some federal officer, since it was in government possession from that time on. If this is true, then the assassination conspiracy would have to have involved members of the federal government and been an "inside" job.
Moreover, where does this 'pointed tip' round come from, and how does it wind up at Parkland Hospital?
Are you suggesting this 'pointed tip' round was from the assassination, and somehow struck one or both of the victims, fell out, and somehow emerged nearly pristine, with its pointed tip still intact?
Please advise re: your scenario for this pointed tip round.
Hank
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HSienzant
Philosopher
Sometimes I get the impression you do. Was the shooter in the SE corner window of the sixth floor firing Oswald's weapon, that was recovered from the sixth floor, or another weapon entirely?
Bear in mind the three shells recovered at the sniper's nest window, the two large fragments found in the limo the evening of the assassination, and the nearly whole bullet recovered at Parkland all were traceable to Oswald's weapon -- to the exclusion of all other weapons in the world.
So if you argue for another weapon, then you're also arguing that those six pieces of hard evidence are all planted or swapped. Along with the rifle.
Yes, so? Do we throw out the baby with the bath water? Do you doubt there was a shooter above them? If not, why the quibbles?
Which means he heard three shots, right? You started out by arguing one of the three mean heard only two initially, claiming he changed his testimony.
What exactly is your argument here? Can you tell us, in your own scenario, how many shots YOU BELIEVE were fired from the sixth floor SE corner window over the heads of Jarman, Norman, and Williams?
Otherwise you're quibbling for the sake of quibbling.
Hank
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HSienzant
Philosopher
It was found by a hospital employee, turned over to another hospital employee, turned over to a Secret Service Agent, turned over to the Chief of the Secret Service, and then turned over to the FBI where it was marked into evidence.
Hank
MicahJava
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But then you have Connally always swearing he heard a loud shot just a moment before he was struck.
Axxman300
Philosopher
Echo...echo...echo...echo....Dealey Plaza is a giant echo chamber...
MicahJava
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From Reclaiming Parkland by James DiEigenio, first edition
The Sorry Trail of CE 399
Josiah Thompson’s Six Seconds in Dallas has become a controversial book. Despite having its detractors early on, at least one section of that work is still valuable: Thompson’s discussion of which stretcher CE 399 was discovered on at Parkland Hospital. In a long, detailed, and illustrated analysis he concludes that the bullet was not discovered on either Kennedy’s or Governor Connally’s stretcher. From the description given by senior engineer Darrell Tomlinson, the man who first discovered it, Thompson concludes that the bullet was found on Ronald Fuller’s stretcher, a little boy brought into the emergency ward at about 1:00 pm. Specter did not want to hear this so, if you read his interview of Tomlinson in Commission Volume 6, you will see that he is intent on shaping his story. Specter understood how deadly it was to the chain of possession of CE 399 if that bullet was found on any other stretcher but Connally’s. In fact, even before Tomlinson testified before the Commission, Specter had told Allen Dulles that the bullet was found on Connally’s stretcher and not Kennedy’s. Like Specter, Bugliosi does not like Thompson’s work here either. He knows just how dangerous it is to his case. For if CE 399 was found on any other stretcher but Connally’s, then what is the proof that it went through both men? So the prosecutor handles it on the CD in his end note file. (For in his prosecutorial zeal, Bugliosi makes the whole chain of custody issue of CE 399 disappear! He calls it a “giant non-issue. Since we know that the bullet was fired from Oswald’s Carcano rifle, and wasn’t found on Kennedy’s stretcher, it had to be found on Connally’s stretcher.” Almost unbelievably, Bugliosi then writes that the discovery of CE 399 on Connally’s stretcher is one of the few points that virtually everyone agrees upon! This is so wrong it is hard to comprehend how he wrote it. On this very same page, Bugliosi writes two other puzzlers. He writes that “. . . we know it wasn’t found on Kennedy’s stretcher.” Yet, this is what Commissioner Allen Dulles thought before Specter had to correct him. Second, to save the chain of possession issue, he writes that FBI agent Elmer Lee Todd’s initials are on CE 399. This is false and it betrays the prosecutor’s serious failings as an investigator.
As Tanenbaum said to Lesar, it was not just the chain of possession issue which a 402 hearing would have examined. There was also an identification issue. After Tomlinson picked up the bullet, he gave it to Parkland security officer O. P. Wright. In an FBI Airtel of June, 20, 1964, it is said that neither man could identify the bullet. As Thompson stated in the footnotes to his book, when he interviewed both men in 1966, neither could positively identify CE 399 as the bullet they found that day. But in a subsequent FBI memo forwarded to the Warren Commission, the Bureau said that both men stated that CE 399 “resembled” the bullet they picked up and it “appears to be the same.” But in fact, in 1966, when Thompson interviewed Wright, Wright was adamant about this. He actually told Thompson the bullet he found was a sharp-nosed, lead-colored projectile, not a round nosed, copper colored cartridge like CE 399. Wright knew what he was talking about since he used to work in the Sheriff’s office. This, of course, brings into question whether or not the FBI and Warren Commission reports on these identification interviews were accurate. Or did they misrepresent something?
The FBI Cover-Up
Many years later, Thompson, joined by Dr. Gary Aguilar, found out what really happened. Bardwell Odum was the FBI agent said to have shown Tomlinson and Wright CE 399 after which they now said it resembled the bullet they saw that day. Years later, when the two investigators finally tracked Odum down, he said he didn’t recall doing any such thing. Bugliosi confronts this rather startling discovery, which clearly implies that the FBI lied in two ways. First, he says that perhaps Odum forgot the original episode. This seems doubtful. Was there ever a bigger case Odum worked on than this? In addition, Odum told Aguilar and Thompson that he knew Wright, “and would certainly not have forgotten such an episode if it had ever happened.”
The second technique employed by Bugliosi is really beneath him and any dignified discussion of the JFK case at this time. He says that implying the original reports are false is to say the FBI was in on the conspiracy to kill Kennedy. Therefore, he actually wants Aguilar and Thompson to say that. (This is not an exaggeration, and the reader can check this footnote out himself.) But if one reads what Aguilar wrote about this in The Assassinations, he says no such thing. So why should he be asked to admit something he is not even implying? These are both meant to detract from the legal issue at hand for the prosecution: In a real court of law, not London Weekend Television’s, the onus would be on Bugliosi to get CE 399 into evidence.
But here’s the rub. Why would you want to? In challenging the claims by journalist and author Jim Marrs that much of the Kennedy evidence could not be admitted into court, Bugliosi replies that he could get 95 percent of it into evidence. But why? Why would you want people like Tomlinson and Wright testifying that the bullet was found on the wrong gurney and is not the original bullet? And further, why would you ever want Odum saying he never showed the projectile to them? How could this possibly benefit the prosecution? It would, in fact, be a tremendous setback to the prosecution’s case, both in practical terms, and also in the sense that the jury would now question the efficacy of the other evidence. Certainly you would want to keep those witnesses off the stand and try and convict Oswald with some other type of evidence while hoping the defense would not try and introduce the exhibit or the testimony. In other words, you would keep your fingers crossed.
There is even more evidence to certify that the Magic Bullet concept was always phony. At a press conference after operating on Governor Connally, Dr. Robert Shaw said that he had not yet taken the bullet out of Connally’s leg. Shaw said it was in his left thigh and would be taken out before he went to the recovery room. How could Tomlinson have found the bullet outside of Connally’s leg before surgery if it was still in Connally’s leg after surgery? Perhaps because, as Robert Harris has shown in a recent essay, it is now possible to demonstrate Connally was hit by a separate bullet.
As Connally stated in his autobiography, a bullet fell out of his body and was picked up by a nurse, Audrey Bell. This was acknowledged by DA Henry Wade who said he saw the nurse with a bullet in her hand, which was taken from Connally’s gurney. This bullet was given to Dallas Highway Patrolman Bobby Nolan. Nolan took it to the Dallas police that evening. He was interviewed by the FBI the next day. In that report they confirm the bullet came from Connally’s left thigh. As Harris proves, the FBI knew this would create a problem, especially if the bullet could not be linked to Oswald’s alleged rifle. So they smudged the evidence by saying the nurse had really retrieved a group of fragments from Connally and had given those to a highway patrolman. This was untrue; she gave her fragments to hospital administrator Jack Price. Again, it appears the FBI was intent on covering up the true facts of the case. In Bugliosi’s discussion of this issue, he ignores the facts of the story up until Nolan was interviewed the day after. He then tries to say Audrey Bell had the fragment the whole time and then muses as to what could have happened to the bullet if it was not planted.
But actually it’s even worse than that. When Thompson went looking a few years ago for security officer Wright, he learned that he had passed away. But he did manage to locate his widow who had also worked at Parkland Hospital at the time of the assassination as one of the nursing supervisors. She reported to Thompson that on the day of the assassination, more than one nurse approached her and said they had also picked up bullets that day.......
Axxman300
Philosopher
Axxman300
Philosopher
Neat. Of course you understand they're trying to sell silencers, right?
Plus, it undermines your ear-witness testimony because the diagram - if accurate - rules out everybody in Dealey Plaza, making all testimony of the sound and direction of gunfire unreliable, and forcing you to focus on the ballistic evidence, which is - surprise - the Carcano.
Nope.
First off, none of those weapons is 6.5x 52mm caliber, and the only weapon fired was 6.5x52mm.
Second, the only folks using the weapons you listed were the guys at Langley, and maybe US Army SF, and if you are going to commit high treason and want to get away with it then you use weapons that can be traced back to you, and especially weapons that are EXCLUSIVE to your organization. This is why MACVSOG used AK-47s on missions into North Vietnam and Laos, .556 would have been advertising US responsibility.
Third, the CIA also had poison, which is how they would have killed JFK if that was the plan. If you look at the history of political assassination carried out by state clandestine organizations the majority are poisonings. Assassinations by sniper are in the minority, and those who have been shot have been at close-to point blank range.
Fourth, the silencer thing is just the latest nonsense introduced to make a second gunman scenario work in the JFK CT, which should be a red flag as to the monumental evidence of a lone shooter.
HSienzant
Philosopher
One witness does not a scenario make. It could be argued a victim of gunfire is one of the least reliable witnesses on the planet.
Hank
HSienzant
Philosopher
Been there, done that. See this thread and its immediate predecessor. All that ground was covered with Robert Harris, I believe. Moreover, since when is a conspiracy theorist's conclusions worthy of credence?
Present the evidence, or not.
Remember that if you're going to argue for the Fuller stretcher being the one where the bullet was recovered, come prepared to explain how the conspirators got lucky and put it down on the stretcher NEXT TO the Governor's. They could have put the round down on the same floor with the Emergency rooms, nearby where the Governor or the President was. But somehow, despite playing musical chairs with the stretchers, you're going to argue they put it on the one next to the Governor's? Good luck with that.
You still need to present a scenario. Was the bullet planted, swapped, or both?
Hank
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