JFK Conspiracy Theories IV: The One With The Whales

[BStrong]

Silliest discussion ever. The situation in Dealey Plaza, as reported by dozens of witnesses who were there compared to the findings of the two observers in the HSCA earshot experiment, was nothing like what you would expect from three shots fired from a Carcano. The only thing that could discredit the HSCA earshot experiment would be a similar, but more exhaustive experiment with more observers. But what happens when that just further confirms the same thing as the HSCA? Do you say half the witnesses to the assassination simultaneously had the same auditory hallucination?

The HSCA earshot experiments and the assassination witness statements are enough to almost certainly know that the situation in Dealey Plaza wasn't just three shots from a Carcano.

I've gone multiple rounds with multiple posters in this thread that want to hang their hat on "earwitness" reports. Rather than repost all the earlier material, I'll hit the high points:

In response to a ctist that believed the muzzle blast was caused by the velocity of the projectile, not the expanding gases that propel the projectile:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10913021&postcount=348

Same poster, same jive, no evidence and like many folks on that side of the street, -0- knowledge of the actual subject matter:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10920900&postcount=372

More from the world's most poorly informed JFK fantasist:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10945169&postcount=403

Early appearance of Micahjava working the wrong side of the street:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11468147&postcount=1250

This one is just me describing some earwitness reports that were interesting and germane to the discussion, including one of my own most embarrassing moments:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11469288&postcount=1266

And here's that moment:

"#3

Me.

At home.

Loud hollow boom, not bang.

First report gets my attention, second boom maybe two minutes later.

Hollow, boom not bang, not handgun, not rifle, has to be a 12 gauge shotgun.

I get on the horn, while on phone, more reports.

I report to 911 dispatcher what I heard.

Maybe three minutes later I get a call from the responding officer informing me that the "flat hollow boom" I reported as a shotgun being fired was in reality a truck driver having difficulty with his tractor. The flat hollow boom was un-burned diesel combusting in the tractors' exhaust stack...and yes, my balls were broken for a long time behind the 911 call once the word got out, and it took all of 48 hrs to circulate through local LE and into my agency

Ear witness testimony is subjective at best, and all manner of factors can color the report of an ear witness, or an eye witness for that matter."

Here's one of MJ's all time greatest misses and my response:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11460662&postcount=1152

"Lol. Some of the best snipers in the world have said that they could not replicate those shots, and they were alledgedly made with a dollar store with the most defective scope ever. I'm not aware anybody replicating the shots. I know of one experiment in which an olympic sniper accomplished something similar... from a height of the third floor of the school book depository."

To this day those "Worlds best snipers" have yet to make their opinions known through MJ and it's only been what? almost a year? The factual mistakes are hilarious. Great 'investigator" that doesn't even know which floor of the TSBD building the shots were fired from.

This one addresses MJ's "Worlds best" jive, and in looking this post up I realized that it's substantially the sane post I made in the last couple of days, referencing the same facts and using the same pictures. That might give some idea about how certain CTist posters react after their fantasies are refuted- they simply wait for an opportune moment to hit the reset button and try the same old jive that went TU the last time they tried pushing it:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11468056&postcount=1230

 

[Reheat]

You posted "In fact, I'd guess LBJ and Connally were the principles who helped decide on the route."
I took that to mean that if there was a conspiracy, that LBJ and Connally made sure that the route went through Dealy Plaza so that Oswald or all the people framing Oswald had a clear shot at JFK. If that's not what you were implying what was your point? Honest question, no sarcasm meant.

Connally would have been very stupid to sit there with bullets flying. Does that answer your question?

You're right, and I apologize for the snark. Let me rephrase. Are you aware of any evidence that places Lansdale in Dealy Plaza at the time of the assassination?

I think all we have is Col. Proudy and Gen. Krulak firmly indicating it was him.

http://www.prouty.org/jfk/

I agree that photo is not strong evidence. I also agree that Proudy has some pretty strange ideas, however, I don't think we can consider everything he says as a fabrication either.

 

[BStrong]

With noise suppressors, both could be right. Noise suppressors can distort the sound of a gunshot to seem like it came from the opposite direction. But of course, noise suppressors don't make the muzzle blast completely silent.

MJ, just stop. I advised you early on in your JFK posting run that getting into questions about firearms and anything involved with them were not to your advantage and your complete ignorance of the subject isn't a virtue.

For. The. Record. There is not now nor has there ever been a sound suppressor or any device that you can attach to a firearm that does the bolded, but human earwitnesses (which evidently you believe w/o question) can mistake sounds they hear for something it isn't - how many recent shootings involving this specific statement?

"It sounded like firecrackers"

https://www.google.com/webhp?source...v=2&ie=UTF-8#q=It+sounded+like+firecrackers&*

Get out of the deep end of the pool while you have the chance.

 

[BStrong]

Connally would have been very stupid to sit there with bullets flying. Does that answer your question?






I think all we have is Col. Proudy and Gen. Krulak firmly indicating it was him.

http://www.prouty.org/jfk/

I agree that photo is not strong evidence. I also agree that Proudy has some pretty strange ideas, however, I don't think we can consider everything he says as a fabrication either.

It's Prouty, and his credibility leaves much to be desired.

 

[traxy]

With noise suppressors, both could be right. Noise suppressors can distort the sound of a gunshot to seem like it came from the opposite direction. But of course, noise suppressors don't make the muzzle blast completely silent.

The rifle firing from the 6th floor window wasn't noise suppressed. The reports were so loud they shook plaster dust loose from the ceiling into Bonnie Ray William's hair.

How could the reports coming from the 6th floor window be loud enough to rattle windows and shake plaster dust loose, yet the knoll earwitnesses didn't identify a single shot coming from that direction?

 

[BStrong]

The rifle firing from the 6th floor window wasn't noise suppressed. The reports were so loud they shook plaster dust loose from the ceiling into Bonnie Ray William's hair.

How could the reports coming from the 6th floor window be loud enough to rattle windows and shake plaster dust loose, yet the knoll earwitnesses didn't identify a single shot coming from that direction?

In honor of Saint Patrick's Day; it's because it was fired by a leprechaun riding a unicorn.

 

[MicahJava]

MJ, just stop. I advised you early on in your JFK posting run that getting into questions about firearms and anything involved with them were not to your advantage and your complete ignorance of the subject isn't a virtue.

For. The. Record. There is not now nor has there ever been a sound suppressor or any device that you can attach to a firearm that does the bolded, but human earwitnesses (which evidently you believe w/o question) can mistake sounds they hear for something it isn't - how many recent shootings involving this specific statement?

"It sounded like firecrackers"

https://www.google.com/webhp?source...v=2&ie=UTF-8#q=It+sounded+like+firecrackers&*

Get out of the deep end of the pool while you have the chance.

BStrong is BS-strong. Just google "silencer", "noise", "opposite direction" and you'll find people on gun forums discussing this well-known phenomenon, to the point of some suggesting it's benefit in hunting. Why do you have to lie instead of honestly debate?

 

[carlitos]

This is getting really funny! You castigate me for thinking there might be a conspiracy involved, and then you invent one involving blackmailing JFK!

I haven't castigated you, nor have I invented a conspiracy. You really seemed to infer the opposite meaning of what Axxman300 said, and I was trying to clarify it for you.

I was genuinely curious about your thinking on this since I had read a bunch of your posts on 9/11; however, for whatever reason it doesn't seem like we can converse about it civilly. My apologies for any offense; none was intended. I will leave you to it.

 

[Reheat]

I haven't castigated you, nor have I invented a conspiracy. You really seemed to infer the opposite meaning of what Axxman300 said, and I was trying to clarify it for you.

A proposed blackmail scheme is most definitely a conspiracy if it involves more than one person. The one that Axxman proposed was GD getting adulterous info to persuade JFK to select GD as contractor for the TFX program. Although it doesn't involve the assassination specifically, it is still a conspiracy.

http://www.prouty.org/jfk/
I was genuinely curious about your thinking on this since I had read a bunch of your posts on 9/11; however, for whatever reason it doesn't seem like we can converse about it civilly. My apologies for any offense; none was intended. I will leave you to it.[/QUOTE]

Fine, I don't like being treated as an idiot just because I've very skeptical about the assassination. I'm looking at the evidence (as conflicting as much of it is) and trying to convince myself there was no conspiracy.

Also, since you read my 9/11 stuff it should be obvious to you that I'm not a conspiracy theorists. I don't know everything, so I'm here to learn from others some of whom have been at this a lot longer than I have.

 

[MicahJava]

The rifle firing from the 6th floor window wasn't noise suppressed. The reports were so loud they shook plaster dust loose from the ceiling into Bonnie Ray William's hair.

How could the reports coming from the 6th floor window be loud enough to rattle windows and shake plaster dust loose, yet the knoll earwitnesses didn't identify a single shot coming from that direction?

Not only did Bonnie Ray Williams say he only heard two shots until his FIFTH sworn statement three months after the assassination, but he apparently only claimed to have debris fall on his head on that FIFTH sworn statement.

11/22/1963 affidavit:

“...Just after we got on the fifth floor we saw the President coming around the corner on Houston from Main Street. I heard 2 shots it sounded like they come from just above us. We ran to the west side of the building....”

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1140#relPageId=247&tab=page

11/23/1963 FBI report:

“...Then he joined two other men known to him as Hank and Junior. They were looking out windows on the south side of the building approximately at the middle of the building and saw the car of President John Kennedy come north on Houston Street and then make a turn going west on Elm Street down into the triple underpass directly in front of the Texas School Book Depository. While they were watching this car pass, Williams heard two shots which sounded like they came from right over his head…He stated he and the other two men ran to the west end of the building where they looked out and they did not realize the President had been shot....”

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=10406#relPageId=335&tab=page

12/7/1963 Secret Service report:

"...He can recall having heard only two shots. He felt that the shots came from the sixth floor but he did not hear the shells fall to the floor nor did he hear the bolt action of the rifle..."

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=10490#relPageId=783&tab=page

1/8/1964 FBI report:

"...He said around 12:30 PM while they were watching the Presidential parade, they heard some shooting and ran down the West steps to the fourth floor and on down the stairway to the first floor of the building...."

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=10730#relPageId=16&tab=page

3/19/1964 FBI statement:

"...As the presidential motorcade passed by the building on Elm Street below I heard three shots which sounded like they came from directly above me. At first I thought the noises I heard were firecrackers. I looked up when little pieces of cement hit me on the head, but saw no one. I did not know that President John F. Kennedy had been shot. When I saw all of the confusion on the street below I ran to the west end of the building to get a better view. Hank and Junior who were on the floor with me also ran to the west end of the building...."

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1317#relPageId=711&tab=page

Ladies and gentleman, the most credible witness in the world.

 

[Meadmaker]

I'd speculate that it tumbled and entered Connally backwards or perhaps sideways. I think the bullet in his thigh was just shallow (you said it fell out), more or less a superficial wound. I have not seen a detailed description of his wounds. Now, whether this was the bullet that went thru Kennedy's throat or a different bullet is still up in the air for me.

I read a test/simulation in an attempt to recreate the exit of a bullet from JFK's neck and then hit Connally using pork skins to simulate the neck area. The creator of that experiment was able to reproduce JFK's neck wound due to tight shirt collar restricting the skin to produce an exit woudd that was more similar in appearance to an entry wound. That test/simulation is more convincing than anything else I've seen. The medical results are simply too confusing and contradictory to be of much use at all.

I have two additional questions about bullets. What about the bullet that hit the top of the windscreen frame? There is a photo of that. Also, what about the glancing bullet that hit the guy in the face down by the underpass. There were more than three shots, it seems to me.

Indeed, tumbling and entering Connally sideways seems reasonable. We know, in fact, that the first hard thing it hit, it hit with the base. When that bullet was fired, it had to hit something soft, and begin tumbling, and then hit something hard, like a bone. We also know that whatever hit his wrist didn't carry as much energy as a pristine bullet (using the actual meaning of the phrase "pristine bullet") fired from a high powered rifle. It had to have been caused by something else.

So now we come to CE399. What did it hit? It wasn't the car. Not enough damage. It wasn't the President's head. Not enough damage. Maybe the governor's rib? If it had gone in the back, it doesn't seem like it would have been tumbling. If a pristine bullet had entered the back, and traveled through to the rib, the nose probably would be damaged. Instead, the base is damaged. Seems like tumbling, so it had to hit something else first. What could it have hit? Well, the president had wounds to soft tissue....

The condition of the bullet itself is very strong evidence for the single bullet theory.

Or, it could have been planted. Since it was found near the governor's stretcher, it had to be planted that day of the assassination. They would have had to be ready for a plant. Part of the president's entourage? Maybe a paid off hospital worker? Ok. But.....it's a very unusual bullet to plant, isn't it? A bullet that had to strike a soft target and then a hard one? It's interesting they managed that detail. How did they find a bullet like that?

Or, perhaps, they planted a bullet the day of the assassination. Then later, when they, learned of the various wounds, they modified the bullet to fit the story. I've heard that theory advanced before. Frequently, the people advancing that theory believe, simultaneously, that the bullet could not have caused the wounds, and that the bullet was deliberately altered to make it appear exactly like a bullet that could have caused the wounds.

All I can say about the "planted bullet" theory is that I envy these people their organizational skills. Just planting a bullet would be difficult, it seems to me. Planting exactly the right sort of bullet, or altering it fter its discovery to match your story, requires some really impressive coordination among a lot of people working on the job, all of them in secrecy, surrounded by people who, presumably, have some sense of patriotism or at least some personal loyalty to JFK. I can't manage to coordinate a team of 3 software engineers. These conspirators were experts in planning.

As for the windscreen "bullet" and the "bullet" that hit James Tague, I'll do a bit of research. I am quite confident that this has been studied to minute detail. I believe the modern analysis suggests that Mr. Tague was hit by the first, missed, shot. It was deflected by a tree branch (which can, indeed, deflect bullets, struck the pavement, shattering, and a fragement hit Tague's cheek. The windscreen damage, from what I remember, was believed to be the result of a fragment of either the bullet that hit the president with the third shot, or a piece of the president's skull. I'll have to look it up.

 

[traxy]

Ladies and gentleman, the most credible witness in the world.

Junior Jarman and Harold Norman heard the shots too. Norman was certain they came from directly overhead. He heard the rifle cycling and spent shells hitting the floor exactly where spent shells were found.

How were shots from the Depository loud enough that they shook windows and knocked plaster dust from the ceiling but not a single knoll witness heard them?

 

[MicahJava]

Junior Jarman and Harold Norman heard the shots too. Norman was certain they came from directly overhead. He heard the rifle cycling and spent shells hitting the floor exactly where spent shells were found.

How were shots from the Depository loud enough that they shook windows and knocked plaster dust from the ceiling but not a single knoll witness heard them?

From Reclaiming Parkland: Tom Hanks, Vincent Bugliosi, and the JFK Assassination in the New Hollywood by James DiEugenio

Norman Changes His Story for Elmer Moore

The prosecution’s next witness was Harold Norman, one of the witnesses on the fifth floor who said he heard something above him, like someone working a gun bolt and shell casings dropping three times. Toward the end of Bugliosi’s direct examination, he asked the witness a rather leading question: “Is the sound of those . . . ejections of the cartridge cases and the falling to the floor something you will recall the rest of your life?” To which Norman said yes. If Spence had been up to speed, he should have walked over to the witness and said in a loud, clear voice, “Mr. Norman, forget about the rest of your life. You couldn’t even remember that noise for four days!” Spence then should have read to the witness Norman’s FBI report from November 26th. In this first statement to the authorities, there is no mention at all of those three noises he just said he would never forget for the rest of his life. But further, there is nothing in the record that says Norman said anything like this to anyone prior to that time. In that FBI report, Norman said that after the first shot, he stuck his head out the window, looked up, and was hit with some dirt particles. That action was corroborated by five witnesses; James Jarman, who was on the same floor as Norman, plus four witnesses on the street who said they saw him look out the window. Norman’s new and improved story did not surface until his Secret Service interview on December 2, 1963, twelve days after the assassination and eight days after the FBI interview. This version contains no mention of him leaning out the window and looking up toward the sixth floor to get dirt particles in his eyes. And it’s hard to hear cartridge cases falling above you if your head is outside the room. One of the Secret Service agents who helped Norman alter his story was Elmer Moore, who emerged as one of the chief architects of the alleged coverup. In addition to massaging the Norman story, he was instrumental in getting Malcolm Perry to change his first day pronouncement about the direction of the shot which caused Kennedy’s throat wound.

 

[MicahJava]

Did you miss the part where I cited Robert Frazier's claim that bullets sometimes do that? He didn't say they always do that. He said sometimes. How many times was the experiment you cite performed? Once?

Hardly sufficient to establish the point that it always happens that way.

Hank

So you legitimately think that this hypothetical first missed shot was aimed at Kennedy, but was deflected by the foliage of the tree so far away from the tree that no evidence of it was ever found?

 

[traxy]

Is your sole tactic in this conversation going to be attacking witnesses?

I guess we have to make this more basic.

Jarman, Norman and Williams heard gunshots from above them, true or false?

 

[Axxman300]

BStrong is BS-strong. Just google "silencer", "noise", "opposite direction" and you'll find people on gun forums discussing this well-known phenomenon, to the point of some suggesting it's benefit in hunting. Why do you have to lie instead of honestly debate?

All a silencer does (with subsonic rounds) is make a gun sound like something else. It does not alter the direction the sound comes from.

With a standard, supersonic round the suppresser lessens the sound of firing, but the bullet still breaks the sound barrier, and that is loud. The sound is still coming from the same direction. Almost nobody was using silencers in 1963 for long rifles. This is reflected in the fact that silencers have not appeared in JFK CTs until 2015, because in the 60s they would have been out of the question.

A silenced weapon used in the assassination is not supported by any of the physical or visual evidence.

 

[Axxman300]

So you legitimately think that this hypothetical first missed shot was aimed at Kennedy, but was deflected by the foliage of the tree so far away from the tree that no evidence of it was ever found?

You are talking about a round with a 1,200 yard range, figure a deflection cuts that to 150 to 300 yards, so draw a circle with a 300 yard radius, and that's your search area. I guarantee nobody looked outside the field of fire from the 6th floor.

Either way, it doesn't matter because it didn't hit anything, and we know where the other two went, and we have recovered them.

 

[cmikes]

Connally would have been very stupid to sit there with bullets flying. Does that answer your question?

Yes, thank you for your clarification. Before we move on to other topics, can we consider it settled that LBJ or Connally had nothing do with choosing the parade route? And that if the parade route was chosen specifically to lead JFK in front of the TSBD so that he could be killed, that one of his closest advisers and friends and two senior members of the Secret Service were members of THEY?

I think all we have is Col. Proudy and Gen. Krulak firmly indicating it was him.

http://www.prouty.org/jfk/

I agree that photo is not strong evidence. I also agree that Proudy has some pretty strange ideas, however, I don't think we can consider everything he says as a fabrication either.

That website is out of date. The three tramps were identified when the Dallas city council voted to release all the assassination records held by the city. Details and other links here.

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/3tramps.htm

The next big break in the case came when the Dallas City Council voted to release all city records having to do with the assassination. Journalist Mary La Fontaine, who was looking through the recently released records, happened to look at a list of records released earlier in 1989. There she found the arrest records that showed the tramps to be:

Harold Doyle
View his arrest record.
Download high resolution version for printing.
John Forrester Gedney
View his arrest record.
Download high resolution version for printing.
Gus W. Abrams
View his arrest record.
Download high resolution version for printing.

 

[MicahJava]

All a silencer does (with subsonic rounds) is make a gun sound like something else. It does not alter the direction the sound comes from.

I'm not talking about the muzzle blast, it's the sound the bullet makes if it's supersonic ammunition. The sonic boom, no? Either way, here's a diagram from a publication by the Military Armament Corporation on silencers.

With a standard, supersonic round the suppresser lessens the sound of firing, but the bullet still breaks the sound barrier, and that is loud. The sound is still coming from the same direction. Almost nobody was using silencers in 1963 for long rifles. This is reflected in the fact that silencers have not appeared in JFK CTs until 2015, because in the 60s they would have been out of the question.

What are you on about? We've already gone over the availability of noise-suppressors in the early 60's. We have mass produced ones like the Silenced Springfield M1903A4 or the CIA-issued Model 74 Winchester (which was automatic). We had people in intelligence like Mitchell WerBell III who pioneered the art of constructing special, individual noise-suppressors. Just look at the quietest gun in the world, the De Lisle Carbine, available in WW2. It wouldn't be suitable for something like Dealey Plaza but it demonstrates the full extent of the technology available that long ago.

Excerpt from the 1953 CIA report "A Study of Assassination":

(f) Silent Firearms

The sound of the explosion of the proponent in a firearm can be effectively silenced by appropriate attachments. However, the sound of the projective passing through the air cannot, since this sound is generated outside the weapon. In cases w here the velocity of the bullet greatly exceeds that of sound, the noise so generated is much louder than that of the explosion. Since all powerful rifles have muzzle velocities of over 2000 feet per second, they cannot be silenced.

Pistol bullets, on the other hand, usually travel slower than sound and the sound of their flight is negligible. Therefore, pistols, submachine guns and any sort of improvised carbine or rifle which will take a low velocity cartridge can be silenc ed. The user should not forget that the sound of the operation of a repeating action is considerable, and that the sound of bullet strike, particularly in bone is quite loud.

Silent firearms are only occasionally useful to the assassin, though they have been widely publicized in this connection. Because permissible velocity is low, effective precision range is held to about 100 yards with rifle or carbine type weapons, while with pistols, silent or otherwise,


are most efficient just beyond arms length. The silent feature attempts to provide a degree of safety to the assassin, but mere possession of a silent firearm is likely to create enough hazard to counter the advantage of its silence. The silent pistol combines the disadvantages of any pistol with the added one of its obviously clandestine purpose.

A telescopically sighted, closed-action carbine shooting a low velocity bullet of great weight, and built for accuracy, could be very useful to an assassin in certain situations. At the time of writing, no such weapon is known to exist.

A silenced weapon used in the assassination is not supported by any of the physical or visual evidence.

Why aren't the ears invited to the party?

 

[Reheat]

Indeed, tumbling and entering Connally sideways seems reasonable. We know, in fact, that the first hard thing it hit, it hit with the base. When that bullet was fired, it had to hit something soft, and begin tumbling, and then hit something hard, like a bone. We also know that whatever hit his wrist didn't carry as much energy as a pristine bullet (using the actual meaning of the phrase "pristine bullet") fired from a high powered rifle. It had to have been caused by something else.

So now we come to CE399. What did it hit? It wasn't the car. Not enough damage. It wasn't the President's head. Not enough damage. Maybe the governor's rib? If it had gone in the back, it doesn't seem like it would have been tumbling. If a pristine bullet had entered the back, and traveled through to the rib, the nose probably would be damaged. Instead, the base is damaged. Seems like tumbling, so it had to hit something else first. What could it have hit? Well, the president had wounds to soft tissue....

The condition of the bullet itself is very strong evidence for the single bullet theory.

Or, it could have been planted. Since it was found near the governor's stretcher, it had to be planted that day of the assassination. They would have had to be ready for a plant. Part of the president's entourage? Maybe a paid off hospital worker? Ok. But.....it's a very unusual bullet to plant, isn't it? A bullet that had to strike a soft target and then a hard one? It's interesting they managed that detail. How did they find a bullet like that?

Or, perhaps, they planted a bullet the day of the assassination. Then later, when they, learned of the various wounds, they modified the bullet to fit the story. I've heard that theory advanced before. Frequently, the people advancing that theory believe, simultaneously, that the bullet could not have caused the wounds, and that the bullet was deliberately altered to make it appear exactly like a bullet that could have caused the wounds.

All I can say about the "planted bullet" theory is that I envy these people their organizational skills. Just planting a bullet would be difficult, it seems to me. Planting exactly the right sort of bullet, or altering it fter its discovery to match your story, requires some really impressive coordination among a lot of people working on the job, all of them in secrecy, surrounded by people who, presumably, have some sense of patriotism or at least some personal loyalty to JFK. I can't manage to coordinate a team of 3 software engineers. These conspirators were experts in planning.

As for the windscreen "bullet" and the "bullet" that hit James Tague, I'll do a bit of research. I am quite confident that this has been studied to minute detail. I believe the modern analysis suggests that Mr. Tague was hit by the first, missed, shot. It was deflected by a tree branch (which can, indeed, deflect bullets, struck the pavement, shattering, and a fragement hit Tague's cheek. The windscreen damage, from what I remember, was believed to be the result of a fragment of either the bullet that hit the president with the third shot, or a piece of the president's skull. I'll have to look it up.

I have trouble with a planted bullet too, but I can't rule it out. Any 6.5 mm fired carcano bullet would do and then let investigators figure out the trajectory and impact. I understand several folks saw Jack Ruby at Parkland around 1:30 or so on the 22nd. I do not know if that's credible or not.

BTW, in that simulation I referenced all of the bullets tumbled after exiting the simulated neck tissue.

The Limo damage is great physical evidence. There were about 6 people who witnessed a hole in the windshield. Some said about the size of a pencil. These seem very credible witnesses. There was also damage to the rear of the rear view mirror, as well as that dent on the windshield frame, which appears to have been an intact bullet, not a fragment. It's difficult for me to imagine that those bullets fragmented that much. That's a very solid bullet and we know one of them stayed intact with little damage. Which one was that? The following link seem to be pretty good analysis and most from this same source are not CT oriented at all. Here's one that is tho....

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/limo.htm

The next link appears to be a CT one, but if there really is a photo of a hole in the windshield. If there is it's very incriminating...

Has anyone seen the actual photo which he references from a TV series?