HSienzant
Philosopher
JFK Conspiracy Theories IV: The One With The Whales
- Thread starter Robert Harris
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This is getting really funny! You castigate me for thinking there might be a conspiracy involved, and then you invent one involving blackmailing JFK!
I don't believe for a second that he was blackmailed over the TFX project. McNamara was hell bent on his theory of consolidating the enormous logistics budget of DOD similar to what he did at Ford. He thought he had accomplished part of that objective with the TFX program and that motivated his decision. There is ZERO evidence that JFK had anything to do with it.
My point was and still is that the potential for blackmail would need to be invented as paramount over his ability to win reelection. Hell, his enemies were pissed off over the Bay of Pigs incident, his plan to pull out of Vietnam, his plan for changes to fossil fuel taxation, and his changes to the Federal Reserve were enough to really upset the big $$ folks in Dallas. I guess they just had to trust that someone MIGHT blackmail him and they'd come out OK. Yea, that sounds like a good plan for an idiot.
One could argue his behavior either way. My point was that he was likely to win a reelection no matter what. The blackmail thing was iffy.
Well, I'll tell you what. I'll slow down a bit and use smaller words, so you won't have to think I'm gish galloping. At this point, I have no theory, so how could I falsify it? When I get it all together, I'll let you know and then we can work on falsifying it. I fully realize that I'm not going to solve it along with no one else at this level. That's not my objective.
HSienzant
Philosopher
That's wrong. On Monday, 11/18, the Dallas Times Herald mentioned the motorcade, and said it "apparently will loop through the downtown area, probably on Main Street, en route from Dallas Love Field". The day prior, the same paper mentioned the Dallas Trade Mart as the destination for the motorcade. By Monday, certainly, astute readers familiar with the traffic patterns in and around Dealey Plaza, could surmise the motorcade would go along Elm in front of the Depository.
Of course, by Tuesday, the Dallas Morning News explicitly made the route clear to its readers, including the turn onto Elm:
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/dmntue.gif
No, it all does emanate from the conspiracy crowd. And it's all speculation. Not an ounce of evidence.
Hank
As I pointed out, witnesses that said they heard shots from the Knoll said the shots came exclusively from there...as in zero shots from the depository.
Witnesses that said they heard shots from the depository said the shots came exclusively from the depository...as in zero shots from another location.
By all means, please explain that discrepancy in a way that makes sense and doesn't involve earwitness perceptions changing depending on where witnesses were standing.
Well, if the scope was misaligned, that would explain it. We know it was misaligned when the rifle was recovered, but no way to prove whether that happened before the shooting or when Oswald dropped it on his way out of the depository. Either way we'd be speculating.
The first shot at Z160 would have been the closest of the three, but also by far the most difficult. It would have been at a target moving laterally from left to right and through a tangle of tree branches. Easy to see how that shot gets missed or deflects off a tree branch.
As the limo moves further away from the snipers nest, it stops tracking from left to right, clears the tree branches, flattens out and becomes something closer to an unobstructed stationary shot.
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HSienzant
Philosopher
HSienzant
Philosopher
Circular reasoning. You're presuming there were other shooters and then proclaiming the plot involving multiple shooters 'worked pretty well', but the multiple shooters is just a presumption of yours.
There's ZERO (0) evidence of a second or third or fourth shooter. There's ZERO (0) evidence of a shooter anywhere but the sixth floor, south-east corner window of the Depository building, where multiple people on the street saw a shooter, or a weapon and pointed that out to the police pretty quickly. No one saw a shooter anywhere else.
Presuming multiple shooters, then lauding the plan involving multiple shooters for being successful is beyond reason. You still need to establish the other shooters. With eyewitness testimony, with ballistic evidence, with autopsy evidence, with photographic evidence.
Got anything along those lines?
How did the plotters manage that the ballistic evidence traceable to a weapon -- three shells, two large fragments, and one nearly whole bullet recovered after the shooting -- all point to Oswald's weapon, to the exclusion of all the other weapons in the world?
Did all the other shooters miss all their shots? How come the vast majority of witnesses -- 90% -- reported only three shots?
If they want JFK dead, why not just shoot him from behind with one good weapon, and then frame the patsy for owning that particular weapon?
What's with the Rube Goldberg plan to assassinate JFK? How could anyone come up with that?
Hank
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HSienzant
Philosopher
Granting for the sake of argument your claim is true that JFK would win re-election in 1964 after a similar scandal brought down some of the highest ranking members of the British government, what was the harm in trying the non-treasonous route first?
Instead, for some reason, these plotters jump right to the most dangerous (for them) option, killing a sitting President in broad daylight, where numerous spectators are bound to be filming or photographing the assassination attempt.
Hank
PS: It appears you are now disavowing the Doug Horne body alteration hypothesis that you originally started posting about, citing a six-hour youtube video we all needed to watch.
If that's the case, are you likewise disavowing the multiple shooters hypothesis as well? One leads inexorably to the other - multiple shooters means you need to alter the body, if you're framing a lone nut.
As pointed out previously, the need for body alteration goes away if you shoot from the patsy's place of work, leave a good weapon behind, and frame him for owning that good weapon.
Any idea why that wasn't option two for the plotters (behind revealing all the mistresses)?
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It is simply repaid in kind. That's the second time.
Sure, that was an option.
It's a shame LHO didn't think of that.
Just because I recommended the video (I didn't indicate anything about anyone needing to watch it) doesn't mean that I accepted every single thing in it. For that to happen the SS and FBI would have had to be inonit and I do know the end result of that type of conspiracy.
I don't quite see it that way. What in the hell expanded that wound in the neck? As has been said that looked like butchery, not at all what the Dr's at Parkland described. In addition, it still appears to me that more than 3 shots were fired. I know what the SS and witnesses mostly described, but there's the possibility (however remote) that some shots were fired simultaneously. Witnesses can be wrong, you know.
I'm not buying it yet, no matter how much I'm badgered to agree. BTW: I'm not an activist trying to spread false rumors. I'm merely trying to come to a better understanding of what happened. It's quite obvious that I don't know the entire story yet, but I'm getting there.
You know some people just might have been so angry that they didn't just want to remove him as President, but instead wanted to get rid of him period. For example, look at some of the photos of LBJ staring at JFK. I think we already know that LBJ liked to get rid of his enemies most expediently, or don't you accept that as pretty strong allegations of his character.
BTW: Thanks for that additional info on the Gen Walters shooting. I was not aware of any notes he left to his wife.
He went to lots of trouble for someone who couldn't drive. How in the hell did he get to Walters house without being seen with the rifle?
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Treasonous? I don't believe assassination was a Federal Crime at the time. Sure, they would have been guilty of murder, but not treason.
Axxman300
Philosopher
Yes, because it's what the "experts" call a "Straight Line".
Scopes aren't magic, and even today with all the red-dot, aim point holographic, laser targeting stuff the fact is that a shooter is still equally as accurate with iron sites at the ranges we're discussing here.
That's why all armed forces begin instruction using iron sights, and I believe monthly quals are still conducted with iron sights. Plus, we called a lot of people between 1775 and 2001 using iron sights.
So yes, iron sites solve all the problems with Oswald's scope.
Bullets are funny things.
We can't speculate because we don't really know where it went. To know that we have to figure out if it hit the tree or the traffic sign, both of which would have been in the line of fire. Then we would have to recreate the shot at least 100 times to get a good idea how the bullet reacts to whatever it struck, and even then it's still just going to be a glorified guess.
So toss out the shot that missed and focus on the two that hit and you've got Oswald and his Carcano.
To those who still think the first shot missed, why did it miss so far to the point of (allegedly) no discernible damage being found in or near the location of the limousine? Unless you wanna theorize about the shallow north-Elm-Street-sidewalk mark being a bullet scar, you'd have no option but to say the lone assassin missed by some ridiculous amount. Since thin tree branches can't deflect the bullet, what else is there? Come on people, don't you miss the good old days when you used to ask questions?
Yeah, that happens when the time comes to pull the trigger on a living human being. Ask any combat vet about the first shots they fired at the enemy and how many of those first rounds found their target. There is a whole psychological component you and other CTists ignore here. Oswald had planned and dreamed about this moment, and now here comes JFK - now it's real, it's happening. He's stacking the boxes, maybe adjusting them to be able to shoot as the motorcade comes around the corner.
Maybe he doesn't have a good firing position for the first shot, but takes it anyway. Nobody knows.
To those who still think the first shot missed, why did it miss so far to the point of (allegedly) no discernible damage being found in or near the location of the limousine? Unless you wanna theorize about the shallow north-Elm-Street-sidewalk mark being a bullet scar, you'd have no option but to say the lone assassin missed by some ridiculous amount. Since thin tree branches can't deflect the bullet, what else is there? Come on people, don't you miss the good old days when you used to ask questions?
Again, bullets are funny things. Navy SEALs in Vietnam tell stories about watching .556 rounds deflected by leaves of trees during firefights.
We ask questions all the time, but we understand that not every question has an answer, and that it is unrealistic to expect an explanation which covers 100% of the event.
Look at the mysterious crimes that have eventually been solved, and the killer confesses. When asked why they did specific things which confounded detectives the killers usually don't know why they did too. There's no master plan, sometimes it's just doing it.
Oswald had been planning to kill someone from the time he bought the Carcano. He took a shot at Walker, and had JFK's limo had the bubble-top on that day, Oswald would have just killed someone else.
Axxman300
Philosopher
The round recovered from Walker's house:
https://catalog.archives.gov/id/305152
The remaining, unfired round from Oswald's Carcano:
https://catalog.archives.gov/id/305136
The round from the stretcher at Parkland:
https://catalog.archives.gov/id/305144
Fragments from the Presidential limo, and skull:
https://catalog.archives.gov/id/305151
https://catalog.archives.gov/id/305150
https://catalog.archives.gov/id/305167
https://catalog.archives.gov/id/305166
https://catalog.archives.gov/id/305165
I think we have a winner here.
Again, if he had a standard hunting rifle we'd have a big gray area, but he didn't, he had a Carcano which used a proprietary round.
Come on, you've spent time on the range, how many 6.5x 52mms have you personally shot? How many have you seen at the range? How many do you see in gunshops?
It's a unicorn round, and the Carcano is the unicorn's unicorn. It screams "Look at me!"...at least from a ballistics point of view.
I agree with BStrong about the caliber, I don't know why it isn't more popular with long range shooters and hunters because it's such an effective round. While the Carcano not a great rifle, the round is unparalleled.
And it's entirely possible that's what Oswald did. You have to remember that Oswald was trained to shoot at much longer ranges than JFK was at in the Marines with iron sights. There's no way to be sure since he never said, but I don't find it difficult to believe at all that Oswald would use the iron sights at such a short distance.
MicahJava
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First, that's obviously a different issue in eyewitnesses.
Second, wouldn't a witness be more likely to report where they remember the origin of the last shot? You never actually provided a reason to doubt that.
Third, you're ignoring the use of noise-suppressors like I've been pointing to this whole time. Noise-suppressors can make a shot sound like it originated from the opposite direction that it did.
You can't just skip to the conclusions, you have to actually see their data. And their data says that a shot from the Depository sounds like a shot from the Depository and a shot form the Knoll sounds like a shot from the Knoll. You can just tell they padded their report with statements like that to soften the blow of what they discovered.
Eeeeww, you're citing the HSCA? Have you tried looking through the witnesses yourself? Even Mcadams wasn't a big enough of a liar to put the number of knoll witnesses that low. In real life, it was at least ~40.
Did you do your own experiment where you rope off Dealey Plaza and fire shots from different locations? If not, please refer to the HSCA earshot experiment.
MicahJava
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Did you miss the part where I linked to a video of a guys firing a Carcano shot through several tiny branches?
MicahJava
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Let's assume you're right, although about half of the witnesses heard the Knoll shots no matter where they were standing. I already told you that the use of rear snipers using noise-suppressors would totally explain that.
HSienzant
Philosopher
Yes, I pointed it out twice.
Neither time was your snark directed at me, so I'm unclear as to your point that you're repaying it.
Hank
What does Prouty have to do with who decided the parade route and to have JFK's speech at the Trade Mart? I know you've claimed not to be a conspiracy theorist and to be Just Asking Questions but this is getting ridiculous. I'm seriously not trying to be offensive here, but give me a break.
You post some nonsense about Connally and LBJ setting up JFK to be killed by having input on the parade route in Dallas. For one thing why would Connally set up an assassination that involved him and his wife riding in the car that was being shot at by a bunch of assassins? But as soon as the true information is posted on who decided to have JFK's speech at the Trade Mart and who decided on the parade route from the airport to the Trade Mart it's time to ignore that information and go on to some more JAQing off.
But as far as Prouty goes, who gives a **** what Prouty thinks? The proper question to ask is if there's any evidence that Lansdale was in Dealy Plaza? Wait, was he in the secret bunker that was constructed underneath the grassy knoll so that J. Edgar Hoover could watch the assassination through a periscope disguised as a tree as alleged by David Lifton?
You haven't explained anything.
49 witnesses said the shots came from only the depository.
21 witnesses said the shots came from only the knoll.
First, which of the two groups is right, because they can't BOTH be right.
Second, explain the discrepancy between the two groups as something other than echoes in Dealey making sounds hard to locate.
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